K.P.,
A little thing called "life" has gotten in the way of my railfanning in the last couple of years, and I've fallen behind on what, if anything, is happening in Arizona on either the Sunset Route or the Phoenix Sub. Most of what I know, I've learned from you. Many thanks for your ongoing photo documentaries. That said, a few comments...
Most likely, the politically mandated PTC requirement and the slowdown in intermodal are indeed the main culprits when it comes to not completing the Sunset two-tracking project. One other is the ever westward expansion of the Phoenix metro area. Phoenix is hemmed in by mountains, Indian reservations and government land. In general terms, the most desirable land for housing is largely to the north and west, in places like North Phoenix, Cave Creek, Peoria and Surprise. Scottsdale, for all practical purposes, is built out unless you have a mega-budget for land and a home to put on it.
That leaves heavy industrial and warehousing expansion largely to a corridor along I-10 and the UP to the west. Maricopa County is currently the fastest growing county in the U..S. At some point, it will become beneficial from the standpoint of volume, crews and fuel consumption for the railroad to again have access to the area from the west rather than use the roundabout way through Picacho and the increasingly congested eastern suburbs of Phoenix.
As for passenger service to the west, I think it's a long shot. California has it's own issues with the HST debacle and even a more likely Phoenix - Tucson service has drawn little interest.
John Timm
K.P. as to UP domes, I rode in two of them, both first class, on the same trip--Portland to Chicago, leaving Portland 4/15/71. I do not remember their numbers, but it was memorable, especially since out of Portland I met a lady from Boise who was going back home coach--and because the coach dome windows needed cleaning she trespassed in the first class dome. Fifteen months later, we were married.
Johnny
Now THAT is an absolutely great railroad story!
desertdog (1-21):
Yes, the Positive Train Control (PTC) mandate is most likely the culprit for the drastic reduction in two-tracking of the Sunset Route, along with the now long standing stagnation of Intermodal. There seemed to be a rekindling of two-tracking in the UP administration of John Koraleski after the untimely passing of Jim Young, but the government cracked the whip during the Lance Fritz times and all the railroads seemed to be really focused on PTC, with less than a year to finish putting it all in. But, desertdog, the north and particularly westward growth along the I-10 corridor west of Phoenix could very well take place, but I seriously question if much growth will take place along the western Phoenix Line. Westward after Arlington the western Phoenix Line traverses a rugged, mountainous path, so I doubt industry would gravitate towards that.
Looking westbound on the western Phoenix Line in the Arlington area. October 1, 2016
And, the fact that industry uses Intermodal so much now, having rail access is irrelevant anymore except for super heavy industry where trucking is questionable or uneconomical.
You specifically mentioned northward growth. I have to wonder how drastic the planned northwest-southeast I-11 Freeway will affect things, and if Upland Industries (UP land) is or will be in on the action!
How close to this Highway 85 Buckeye, AZ grade crossing will the future I-11 Freeway be? October 1, 2016.
The California High Speed Rail is kind of out of my area, though it was at one time in the planning, but I should visit the central part of California and see what is physically taking place there. The Phoenix-Tucson passenger rail effort that you mentioned as faltering doesn’t surprise me. There is little incentive for tapping a very rural area, except for visionaries, but most would-be interested people want to focus on the economic trials and dilemmas of the present
My colleague here in the office says, desertdog, that man’s chronic economic problems in any nation are caused by mortality. Since you and I, and all those at the forum, are held hostage by that problem, one has to wonder how things would be if there wasn’t that problem. If I had a time machine and could travel a hundred years into the future, I would love to see if two-tracking on the Sunset Route was ever finished, who was president of the U.S. (and UP), and if that biggest problem was ever successfully tackled. Unfortunately, I don’t have a time machine, and don’t thing you do either …
Deggesty (1-21):
I agree with kgbw49 that your meeting your then future wife in 1971 on a UP domeliner was a great story indeed. However, I question that gall’s reason for being in a first class dome because of dirty windows in the regular class section’s dome … Somehow I get the feeling it was because Prince Charming was there …
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Well, K.P. the lady never saw me until she, sitting behind me, saw me talking with the flagman, who had to go down and look over the freight that we passed--years later, she told me she thought she might be able to talk with the flagmen (who did not come back) if she changed her seat. When, 53 weeks after we met, I called her and let her know that I wanted to marry her, she offered all sorts of silly excuses as to why we should not marry--and called me back two and a half weeks later to say that she would marry me. Prince Charming? Hah!
Deggesty(1-22):
OK, you win!
Still, it was a really cool story!
Thanks for sharing.
K. P. Harrier Deggesty(1-22): OK, you win! Still, it was a really cool story! Thanks for sharing. K.P.
Perhaps the best parts of the story are that she was able to get a babysitter (three young children)for the two particualr nights it took her to make the trip from Boise to Portland and back--and my original decision, which I changed two and a half days before I left, to take the Santa Fe's southern route to Los Angeles and the Overland route back to Chicago. When I decided to take the North Coast Limited to Portland and then the UP-Milw back, I had no thought at all of meeting anybody whom I would remember.
Deggesty Well, K.P. the lady never saw me until she, sitting behind me, saw me talking with the flagman, who had to go down and look over the freight that we passed--years later, she told me she thought she might be able to talk with the flagmen (who did not come back) if she changed her seat. When, 53 weeks after we met, I called her and let her know that I wanted to marry her, she offered all sorts of silly excuses as to why we should not marry--and called me back two and a half weeks later to say that she would marry me. Prince Charming? Hah!
Johnny,
Cool story indeed. In my case the tables were turned somewhat.
I met my wife to be in her parent's apartment in the apartment complex they were managing at the time and I'm still living in.
There was an age difference. She was a week short of her nineteenth birthday and I was thirty when we married much to the chagrin of her mom and dad.
Yeah, I can imagine what was going through her parents minds back then. We only had thirty years together but those were the best years of my life.
Were I given my life to live over I wish she would have survived me. She had a lot going for her.
Our dieties have strange ways of working.
It is strange to me that a friend on an aviation forum who lost his wife a year or two ago has several women friends but is still loyal to his mate of many years.
Norm
K. P. Harrier Update as of January 14-15, 2018 Second Arizona Trip in less … … than Two Weeks And, the Findings Part XVI (of VIII-XVI, Overall I-XVI) A Time for Reflection … and Amtrak The Positive Train Control regulation has very dramatically slowed two-tracking, and may have set it back for years to come. But, it should be known that the railroads’ very top management, in essence, wear female skirts totally drenched in blood and weep as females do, weeping for stockholders. Who cares about the countless bloodletting that has occurred for decades and decades and decades with head-on collisions, so often caused by sleep deprivation? Finally, the government said, “Enough!” Now, the railroads are paying the price; and the blood yells out, “Rightfully so!” WITHOUT official word, though, it is difficult to second guess UP. But, one gets the distinct impression two-tracking may be basically over. A few areas could see two-tracking still, particularly around Yuma. The track around Fortuna, you will recall, has very deteriorated-looking ties, and thus Yuma-Fortuna may be two-tracked after Positive Train Control. The replacement signals seemingly (“seemingly”) now showing up on the western Phoenix Line are there as per required by law. BUT, has UP given up on two-tracking, and the effort will now be recouping the PTC money as quickly as possible? The western Phoenix Line could be brought up to usable standards for probably $50 million (based on previous statements by UP of, as K.P. recalls, $31 million), verses conjecturally $500 million to finish two-tracking in Arizona. K.P. envision UP reopening the Phoenix Line for slower traffic that would otherwise get in the way of hotshots If that western Phoenix Line upgrading happens, would Amtrak leave the Maricopa stop …and reuse the Phoenix stop instead? It would be much more costly for Amtrak to do so, but politicians don’t always take the least costly option. In the light of what TRAINS Magazine recently said, that Intermodal has been stagnant and without growth for years, it would seem UP would have little incentive for future two-tracking, and the most bang for the buck is reopening the Phoenix Line. And, NEW (“new”) Sunset Route CP boxes (suggesting the track won’t be changed) now on site but not positioned yet, such as at CP SP771 WELLTON, gives credence to the concept! Previously shown, shot November 19, 2017 Of course, those new CP boxes are apparently upgradable, just like the ones (plural) at the huge CP AL514 HAMILTON in Pomona, CA, that will have the track and switches rearranged multiple times before everything is finished. If that reopening the western Phoenix Line occurs, nevertheless, a few places on the Sunset Route would be in UP’s best interest to still two-track, namely, in the Yuma area as previously noted, and somewhere in the Theba area west of Gila Bend. Thus, so much appears to be up in the air at this point. And, that includes a possible Red Rock Yard. (Remember the 30 M.P.H. crossovers at CP SP952 RED ROCK and space for another crossover too? And the crew change relocation plan idea?) Yes, up in the air indeed, at least for us outsiders! The super unknown is the effect President’s Trump’s policies and contrivances will have on the economy and railroads within that economy. Reports that K.P. is getting is that trainmen are being worked almost beyond what is humanly possible, which suggests UP will start hiring on a massive scale, which theoretically is what Trump wants. That in turn suggests UP management may be rethinking everything again (“again”), and the possibility that UP could decide to do a big two-tracking project. Time will tell on all this. K.P. also now wonders if it is about time for TRAINS Magazine to have Fred Frailey do an investigative article on the Sunset Route two-tracking matter … and, the issues that have been mentioned herein. It now has been over 10 years since Mr. Frailey did his last Sunset Route piece, so it seems we are due for such right now! Are you listening, TRAINS Magazine? This will conclude the series. However, a very thought-provoking “Second Section” follows.
Update as of January 14-15, 2018
Second Arizona Trip in less …
… than Two Weeks
And, the Findings
Part XVI (of VIII-XVI, Overall I-XVI)
A Time for Reflection … and Amtrak
The Positive Train Control regulation has very dramatically slowed two-tracking, and may have set it back for years to come. But, it should be known that the railroads’ very top management, in essence, wear female skirts totally drenched in blood and weep as females do, weeping for stockholders. Who cares about the countless bloodletting that has occurred for decades and decades and decades with head-on collisions, so often caused by sleep deprivation? Finally, the government said, “Enough!” Now, the railroads are paying the price; and the blood yells out, “Rightfully so!”
WITHOUT official word, though, it is difficult to second guess UP. But, one gets the distinct impression two-tracking may be basically over. A few areas could see two-tracking still, particularly around Yuma. The track around Fortuna, you will recall, has very deteriorated-looking ties, and thus Yuma-Fortuna may be two-tracked after Positive Train Control.
The replacement signals seemingly (“seemingly”) now showing up on the western Phoenix Line are there as per required by law.
BUT, has UP given up on two-tracking, and the effort will now be recouping the PTC money as quickly as possible? The western Phoenix Line could be brought up to usable standards for probably $50 million (based on previous statements by UP of, as K.P. recalls, $31 million), verses conjecturally $500 million to finish two-tracking in Arizona. K.P. envision UP reopening the Phoenix Line for slower traffic that would otherwise get in the way of hotshots
If that western Phoenix Line upgrading happens, would Amtrak leave the Maricopa stop …and reuse the Phoenix stop instead? It would be much more costly for Amtrak to do so, but politicians don’t always take the least costly option.
In the light of what TRAINS Magazine recently said, that Intermodal has been stagnant and without growth for years, it would seem UP would have little incentive for future two-tracking, and the most bang for the buck is reopening the Phoenix Line. And, NEW (“new”) Sunset Route CP boxes (suggesting the track won’t be changed) now on site but not positioned yet, such as at CP SP771 WELLTON, gives credence to the concept!
Previously shown, shot November 19, 2017
Of course, those new CP boxes are apparently upgradable, just like the ones (plural) at the huge CP AL514 HAMILTON in Pomona, CA, that will have the track and switches rearranged multiple times before everything is finished.
If that reopening the western Phoenix Line occurs, nevertheless, a few places on the Sunset Route would be in UP’s best interest to still two-track, namely, in the Yuma area as previously noted, and somewhere in the Theba area west of Gila Bend.
Thus, so much appears to be up in the air at this point. And, that includes a possible Red Rock Yard. (Remember the 30 M.P.H. crossovers at CP SP952 RED ROCK and space for another crossover too? And the crew change relocation plan idea?) Yes, up in the air indeed, at least for us outsiders!
The super unknown is the effect President’s Trump’s policies and contrivances will have on the economy and railroads within that economy. Reports that K.P. is getting is that trainmen are being worked almost beyond what is humanly possible, which suggests UP will start hiring on a massive scale, which theoretically is what Trump wants. That in turn suggests UP management may be rethinking everything again (“again”), and the possibility that UP could decide to do a big two-tracking project. Time will tell on all this.
K.P. also now wonders if it is about time for TRAINS Magazine to have Fred Frailey do an investigative article on the Sunset Route two-tracking matter … and, the issues that have been mentioned herein. It now has been over 10 years since Mr. Frailey did his last Sunset Route piece, so it seems we are due for such right now! Are you listening, TRAINS Magazine?
This will conclude the series. However, a very thought-provoking “Second Section” follows.
Fred - KP, development of rail traffic in west-northwest Phoenix is very available on the BNSF line with an excellent RR connecting to the BNSF Transcon at Williams Jct.
There is a newer (1990's) automobile unloading site at El Mirage and lots of open land north of the main line just west of the 303 freeway so it would seem BNSF is prepared to handle growth in that vicinity.
Replies
Fred M. Cain (1-25):
Regardless if one agrees or disagrees with my assessment, Fred, the fact is that cornfields have been a constant problem for railroads as far back as I can remember, most often caused by one of the crews falling asleep and running past their authorized limits, even in CTC territory. So, the government had a knee jerk reaction after the 2008 Chatsworth, CA head-on that killed I believe 25 people, a wreck I still question because even the NTSF acknowledged railfans stated they saw a green signal but were deemed unreliable, assumedly because the NTSB couldn’t duplicate such a green signal with the track circuits occupied the way they were a few minutes before the head-on.
One would think the railroads would have taken steps to eradicate head-on collisions a long, long time ago, but the steps necessary to do so simply cost too much money and no one had the guts to spend the necessary money because stockholders had an ax and chopping block ready for anyone who did so. Since corporate heads saved themselves first, the government had to step in, and the railroads now have the PTC law. I believe it is as simple as that.
About the railroads becoming plugged up again and needing two-tracks, from what I’ve heard of late, Trump’s efforts may be on the too successful side, and the economy might move too fast forward, which historically has had adverse effects. Personally, I think if UP reopens the western Phoenix Line, two-tracked Yuma-Fortuna, a stretch in the Theba area, and then see what happens they will be in a better position to deal with whatever does happen.
As far as Amtrak going to Phoenix instead of Maricopa, my gut tells me that is now in the cards, and might just happen. If UP reopens the western Phoenix Line, UP probably would love nothing more than for Amtrak Nos. 1 and 2 to use it. THAT would conform to my envisioned limited two-tracking of the Gila Sub as mentioned in the paragraph above.
A phenomenon that I came to see in the last couple of days here in California was truckers using the left lanes instead of the tradition right lanes on four lane highways on two-way roads, including multi-lane freeways. (California limits trucks to 55 M.P.H., hence, they are to use the right lane.) I went out to photograph the phenomena Thursday morning (1-25), but all the truckers were driving on the right lanes as before, which suggests to me that truckers were on some kind of temporary protest type thing. It is understood that their demand for additional trucks and equipment is beyond the present supply and demand chain, so prices are accordingly rising. That could lead to a bust if things are not controlled properly, a control usually handled by the Federal Reserve.
So, Fred, if UP takes a very controlled, modest response to improving economic matters, that might be the safest thing to do! If UP jumps headfirst into two-tracking the rest of the Sunset Route, more than likely things will go bust and UP will be strapped with huge debt and two-tracks with hardly any trains on them, and severely suffering hard, hard economic times. If UP takes the more modest approach, and things get bad, UP will be in a very good position to help improve the economy instead of being a drain on it, at least that is what I’m inclined to think.
diningcar (1-25):
Yes, BNSF’s line north out of the Phoenix area is good track and only has a couple of trains each way, the last that I heard. So, additional traffic certainly would be welcomed by BNSF.
Interestingly, as you know, diningcar, there is now ONLY an east BNSF connection to the Transcon at Williams, AZ, so traffic to and from Phoenix comes from or goes to the EAST. That is a bad omen for UP’s west Phoenix Line, which line was discussed in the reply to Fred Cane above. In the long gone past there was a WEST connection to the BNSF Transcon, then owned by AT&SF, and was so poorly utilized that Santa Fe sold the line. That may be helpful for others in analyzing what traffic might use a reopened UP western Phoenix Line …
Cornfields? Here is a link to one of the worst so-called "cornfield meets" in the Midwest:
http://www.gendisasters.com/indiana/6939/kingsland-in-terrible-interurban-accident-sept-1910
Actually, I really have a hard time disagreeing with anything you said. I wonder how many devasting wrecks PTC will have to prevent before it pays for itself? My guess is that it won't take too many.
I suppose what bothers me the most is the fact that it was an unfunded mandate. I wish the government would've helped out a little more and I think they did with some commuter rail lines. But some railroads might've balked at more government assistance out of fear that it might've come "with strings attached".
Concerning your assessment of the the so-called "Peavine" (Phoenix-Williams Jct), i used to live in Phoenix and it was my understanding that the Old Santa Fe used to send westbound traffic through Parker to a junction with the "Transcon" near Cadiz. But then later that line was sold west of Wickenburg to a shortline operator. I was under the assumption that, for a time at least, AT&SF and later BNSF retained some kind of overhead rights on the line although they may have contracted out to he shortine.
Obviously that corridor was not too significant to either Santa Fe or BNSF. *BUT* Santa Fe did not reach the Pacific Northwest at that time. The UP does. So, I continue to feel like they could develop an intermodal container market from SeaTac to Phoenix if they just would. I have been meaning to write a letter to Omaha about this but still haven't gotten around to it. One of these days. It's still on my "to do" list.
Regads,
Fred M. Cain
Fred M. Cane (1-26):
According to a source, UP use to have (“use to have,” past tense) a QRVPX (Quality manifest Roseville to Phoenix) train, but it was discontinued. The source now wonders if it will be reinstated since traffic system wide is increasing.
So, Fred, if you contact UP about such a train, it would seem you would have very, very little effect on any startup of such a train. UP already knows what traffic patterns there are, and maximizes those patterns already, and at some point if the lines are crossed (to UP’s benefit), rest assured UP will start such a train without any coaxing from you. It is a science to them, with the bottom line always in view!
That last posting of my was somewhat "abbreviated". I actually wouldn't try and coax 'em to start a new Seattle (or Portland) to Phoenix train. I'd rather leave that to the UP's traffic managers.
No, what my letter would state is that as a UP shareholder, I feel like they have neglected the intermodal market in the greater Phoenix area and I'd encourage them to look into a developement there.
Would that do any good? Probably not but I still think that managers like to know that people are interested in their businesses, in this case a railroad.
There is anecdotal evidence, or, well, maybe a bit more than just "anecdotal" that the UP was actually planning to do exactly that near Buckeye. That project, just like all the others we've discussed is also on hold.
So one of these days I'll send my letter in. Like I say, it's on my "to do" list. I guess it's not a really big priority for me 'cause, realistically, I realize it will only have a very tiny effect on their plans.
Regards,Fred M. Cain
The San Gabriel Trench
On Saturday, January 27, 2018, K.P. visited the San Gabriel Trench (San Gabriel, CA), and found workers hard at work, on a Saturday, no less! See lower right of the below photo:
Above, on the lower left, it seems another vertical I-beam wall has been erected, this one much higher than the original one, which is still in place, making for TWO side by side vertical I-beam walls.
Only 40 photos were taken for the whole day, but a few posts with photos will be worked on in the next few days, that will focus on both ends of the San Gabriel Trench.
Fred M Cain I wonder how many devasting wrecks PTC will have to prevent before it pays for itself? My guess is that it won't take too many.
I wonder how many devasting wrecks PTC will have to prevent before it pays for itself? My guess is that it won't take too many.
It's easy to say which collisions it might have prevented. A lot harder to say which collisions it did prevent. If something didn't happen, how can you say definitely what prevented it?
A lot of my coworkers believe (mistakenly IMO) Automatic Train Control (as the CNW had) is safer than PTC. For collision avoidance it probably is. It won't prevent going by an absolute stop, but will only allow it at Restricted Speed. (Still fast enough to kill.) What ATC won't do, is enforce speed restrictions. ATC has been around since at least the 1920s.
Amtrak's version of PTC has already (about 5 or 6 years ago) allowed a train to go through an open switch and into low speed yard tracks. The PTC system itself wasn't the fault, but a failure of the signal system (a maintainer placed a jumper wire to temporarily fix a problem) that caused a false clear with the switch open.
We started using PTC last year. I haven't heard anyone who doesn't like it. There are a few things that could be a little better, and supposedly future versions will address some of them. But it isn't completely fool proof. I wonder how many accidents it won't prevent before a public used to CSI type TV shows and movies where technology always works perfectly start asking how technology can fail?
Jeff
jeffhergertWe started using PTC last year. I haven't heard anyone who doesn't like it. There are a few things that could be a little better, and supposedly future versions will address some of them. But it isn't completely fool proof. I wonder how many accidents it won't prevent before a public used to CSI type TV shows and movies where technology always works perfectly start asking how technology can fail? Jeff
UP's CEO says "Union Pacific Corp. says new technology meant to prevent train accidents is causing congestion on the railway."
https://www.wsj.com/articles/union-pacific-ceo-train-braking-technology-is-clogging-the-railway-1516917109
Are improper PTC operations causing trains to have false stops? Or why is PTC causing clogging? Just birthing pains?
Electroliner 1935 jeffhergert We started using PTC last year. I haven't heard anyone who doesn't like it. There are a few things that could be a little better, and supposedly future versions will address some of them. But it isn't completely fool proof. I wonder how many accidents it won't prevent before a public used to CSI type TV shows and movies where technology always works perfectly start asking how technology can fail? Jeff UP's CEO says "Union Pacific Corp. says new technology meant to prevent train accidents is causing congestion on the railway." https://www.wsj.com/articles/union-pacific-ceo-train-braking-technology-is-clogging-the-railway-1516917109 Are improper PTC operations causing trains to have false stops? Or why is PTC causing clogging? Just birthing pains?
jeffhergert We started using PTC last year. I haven't heard anyone who doesn't like it. There are a few things that could be a little better, and supposedly future versions will address some of them. But it isn't completely fool proof. I wonder how many accidents it won't prevent before a public used to CSI type TV shows and movies where technology always works perfectly start asking how technology can fail? Jeff
Most of the problems seem to be when signing into the system. Each engineer at each crew change has to sign into (initialize) the PTC. It takes a few minutes for the system to download the pertinent info, edit any discrepencies between the display screen info and paperwork. If the system has a glitch, you have to contact the dispatcher if you are on a main track or controlled siding who puts in a call to the Help Desk. (If you're in a yard, you can dial them up direct.) At this time, if there is no response from the Help Desk within 15mins, the dispatcher can authorize you to run without PTC, and in my area with cab signals.
Once it's up and running, PTC doesn't see the first signal. It makes you run at restricted speed until you pass the first signal, but until you are within 1500 feet of it, PTC assumes the signal requires a stop. Depending the location, once we take off we may go for a mile or so at restricted speed.
And yes, there have been failures on the road that will stop a train or at least require the train to stop and contact the dispatcher. But, even long established signal systems also have a problem every now and then too.
K. P. Harrier Update as of January 14-15, 2018 Second Arizona Trip in less … … than Two Weeks And, the Findings Part XI (of VIII-XVI, Overall I-XVI) Back at Picacho, AZ, K.P. found something more than a passing new SD70AH-T4 in DPU mode. Above, did you notice all the foreground land has been leveled? The land south of the tracks has been partially graded. Something is going in here, but what is unknown. Possibilities: The building of an industrial park, an intermodal facility, or something else. Continued in Part XII
Part XI (of VIII-XVI, Overall I-XVI)
Back at Picacho, AZ, K.P. found something more than a passing new SD70AH-T4 in DPU mode.
Above, did you notice all the foreground land has been leveled?
The land south of the tracks has been partially graded.
Something is going in here, but what is unknown. Possibilities: The building of an industrial park, an intermodal facility, or something else.
Continued in Part XII
What little there was left of Picacho has been purchased by the State of Arizona. There will be a major interchange there with SR 87 and I-10. The latter will be widened to match up with the 6 lane portion that starts west of there.
Reguarding Electroliner 1935's link to the WSJ, the WSJ only allows me to read 7 lines of the article. To read more requires a sign in or subscription. I'll check my local library's papers.Also, don't forget that when the government mandated PTC, it required the railroads to invent and agree on a system that didn't exist. Then the FCC delayed granting frequency allocations and the EPA required environmental impact statements for the radio relays/installations.
I'm a firm believer in Murphy's Law: Anything that can go wrong, Will go wrong.
Situation Update for Saturday, January 27, 2018
Part “A” (of A-E)
San Gabriel Trench, San Gabriel Area, CA
It appears the eastern area of the San Gabriel Trench has minimal concrete-work yet to do, mainly move the dirt out of the way and erect low north side walling, if even walling will be put in. Westward view from Walnut Grove Ave.:
That is based on comparing the finished SOUTH walling (left) with the north area (right, and above).
Looking east from Walnut Grove Ave.: A lot of ballast (foreground) remains on the previous alignment
Continued in Part B
Part “B” (of A-E)
At Chapel Ave. towards the far western end of the San Gabriel Trench looking east out of the Alhambra Trench to the San Gabriel Trench in the distance:
A closer view in the west signal area:
Above, where the right fence lowers, is where the Alhambra Flood Control channel is located, the yet incomplete brown rusted north bridging over such is now in place.
Continued in Part C
Part “C” (of A-E)
From Ramona Street, the westernmost of four new trench bridges constructed in the San Gabriel Trench project, westward views:
Continued in Part D
Part “D” (of A-E)
Eastward views from Ramona Street:
Now, on the north side of the track, back by that Alhambra Wash, the temporary construction metal walling seems unusually high:
We now leave the San Gabriel Trench area for the Pomona Diversion.
Continued in Part E
Part “E” (of A-E)
Pomona-Ontario, CA
Nothing new was seen by the Temple Ave. overpass.
At the Humane Way overpass, mixed views were observed. A westward view on the LA&SL right-of-way in the heart of the Diversion, with the wood tied “C” Track still out of service with panel track-like sections still on it, with no track laying still for the future “D” Track.
An eastbound train stopped on the “A” Track with the head-end near downtown Pomona:
Above, that frail looking Highway 71 Bridge where K.P. took photos of the Diversion from back almost 9 years ago is now an inaccessible ‘freeway’ bridge.
In Ontario, just west of San Antonio Ave. between the LA&SL and SP UP tracks, a bunch of used concrete ties were scattered about in a boneyard type scene.
EAST of Vineyard Ave. in Ontario, by Ontario International Airport, that flood control wash under the Sunset Route had diggings just west of it, which sure DIDN’T give one the impression a bridge for a second track was being put in.
By Etiwanda Ave. a west view was seen and no piping activity or two-tracking was observed, but a limbo type situation seems to exist.
So, that is what is happening on the far western Sunset Route scene.
This will end the series.
Hey Scotty! Did someone say, “Beam the Future…
… Red Rock Classification Yard over to Texas”?
Since 2016 it was known that a classification yard near the little known place of Hearne, TX was on the drawing boards, and now it has been officially announced, projected to open in 2020, just perhaps two years away. It supposedly will be called Brazos Yard, for a nearby river. Bulldozers are reportedly actually doing grading there now. Hearne, TX, though? Hearne?
The location of Hearne, TX is smack dab in the middle of a triangle of Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston, at a crossroads type place of two UP rail lines of unknown traffic volume.
In the last decade it has been widely understood that West Colton Yard in the Colton-Fontana, CA area would be the projected WESTBOUND classification yard on the Sunset Route, and a Red Rock Classification Yard in the Red Rock, AZ area would be the counterpart EASTBOUND classification yard. But, constructing a yard at Red Rock has never materialized, and the projected yard has only lingered on in our minds.
But now, the Brazos Yard in Texas has started construction. Has a ‘beam the future Red Rock Yard over to Texas’ sort of happened? IF (“if”) the big, master plan is to have the off the beaten path Hearne, TX “Brazos Yard” facility ALSO USED AS THE SUNSET ROUTE EASTBOUND YARD, the effect would be as if San Antonio to Houston was two-tracked, with eastbound to be classification traffic taking a detour up to the Hearne, TX area for classifying, and then classified traffic that would remain for the Sunset Route taking a straight path from there to Houston, and possibly to New Orleans and points east. So, San Antonio-Houston would be freed of some traffic, thus adding capacity for new trains, sort of AS IF adding a second track.
Thus, the Hearne, TX facility would not only focus on a sideways “L” for south and east traffic, but very possibly for EASTBOUND traffic on the Sunset Route as well. It would be great if TRAINS Magazine’s Newswire could confirm the concept, and settle once and for all if Red Rock Yard is still on the drawing boards or if it was superseded by the upcoming Texas facility.
Taking a roundabout route as needed to reach Hearne way off the Sunset Route is not unusual. North-south Roseville-PALMDALE (CA) traffic, for example, southwardly passes Palmdale about 80 miles and goes all the way to West Colton Yard in the Colton area on the Sunset Route. It is classified and then takes the Mojave Flyer back to Mojave, passing Palmdale again in the process, traveling say 115 miles. Is switched in Mojave and then is spotted in Palmdale, some 35 miles away, by a switching train run, thus passing Palmdale three times altogether in the shipment delivery process.
In analyzing the Hearne, TX location, hypothetically, say there was a big derailment midway between El Paso and San Antonio, TX that blocked the Sunset Route for two days. No problem. To be classified eastbound traffic from Southern California would just go instead via Dallas, and be humped at the facility near Hearne as usual. Houston and New Orleans bound Sunset Route Intermodal trains, if a wreck blocked the line as above, may detour via that Dallas route as well.
Obviously, the Red Rock Classification Yard would not need to be built then, but psyching everyone to think it might be got everyone prepared mentally to change the crew change place from Tucson to Red Rock, a location more evenly spaced than Tucson. Red Rock, too, would be more conducive to changing crews if any Yuma-Red Rock traffic went via Phoenix instead of the more direct route though Gila Bend and Maricopa.
Anyway, that should give the forum some unexpected Sunset Route matters to chew on …
More about Texas …
Forum contributor desertdog (John Timm) emailed K.P. the following Texas material, and K.P. thought it was so important to expanding the forum’s Texas comprehension it is duplicated here with desertdog’s permission:
The track layout around Hearne is complex and difficult to visualize without referring to a map. The official State of Texas railroad map is as good as any:
https://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/tpp/maps/2015-railroad.pdf
Here’s another map. It’s mainly the Houston area, but the main site covers most of the U.S.
http://railfanguides.us/#TEXAS
These were Cotton Belt / Southern Pacific routes that were consolidated with the [UP-SP] merger. Some lines are used directionally as if they were double track.
All of these lines are active and can be reasonably considered busy.
The new yard will be build alongside the Fort Worth Sub and the Bryan Sub in Mumford, to the southwest of Hearne.
Major traffic in the area includes petroleum products from the Chemical Coast (Houston, Beaumont), grain for export via Houston and Galveston, aggregates from several areas, including Midlothian south of Fort Worth and quarries west of Austin, auto parts to Mexico and new cars from Mexico.
The Ennis Sub is former Houston and Texas Central (SP) track. It is 140 miles long and begins in Dallas, runs generally southward, terminating in Hearne. It is a combination of CTC, TWC / ABS and ABS. The last 35 miles into Hearne are CTC. Trains out of the Midwest enter the line north of Hearne in Corsicana.
Running roughly parallel to the Ennis Sub but to the west out of Fort Worth is the Fort Worth Sub (IGN). It ends at Valley Junction, about 11 miles west of Hearne. It is 150 miles long and is CTC all the way.
The Giddings Sub runs south for 77 miles to the south out of Hearne to West Point, TX where it intersects with a UP / BNSF east-west line into Houston. It is CTC except within the Hearne YL which is governed by ABS.
The Hearne Sub comes in from Palestine, TX, 90 miles to the north east. Nucor Steel has a major facility about midway. It is TWC / ABS all the way except for CTC within Hearne.
The Bryan Sub runs for 23 miles between Hearne and Bryan. It is under ABS within the Bryan YL and TWC/ ABC for the remainder. It serves the Bryan Industrial Park and connects to the Navasota Sub at Bryan Junction. I believe it also carries traffic off the DFW Sub headed to Spring Yard, Houston.
The Navasota Sub (HTC) up from Houston at Spring Junction. It is a major chemical, petroleum products routing. 100% CTC.
The Austin Sub comes west out of Hearne, crossing the Fort Worth Sub at Valley Junction and runs 170 miles westward to San Antonio via Austin. It is all CTC save for 23 miles of Track No. 2 in the San Antonio area (directional running).
From K.P.: A Glaring Thought about …
… Yards and the Sunset Route
When considering the Hearne area facility, the Golden State Route makes for a glaring hole in the EAST hump Sunset Route coverage.
A much more glaring situation, though, is with the Southern California area. Three general directions are present for departure: (1) North, (2) Midwest via Salt Lake City, and (3) east on the Sunset Route. A facility in Red Rock and / or the Hearne area WOULD NOT ADDRESS HOW RAILCARS WOULD BE SORTED TO DEPART THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA! Thus, to avoid duplication, it may be better to revamp West Colton Yard in the Colton, CA area, with the Hearne Facility basically for the Texas area traffic.
West Colton Yard is hemmed in, and really can’t be expanded, which was the argument for creating a hump yard at Red Rock. However, a second hump track could easily be added at West Colton Yard, practically doubling hump output. And, the Loma Linda area could theoretically be used as a holding area for arriving trains now that no grade crossings are present. And, one or two more departure tracks could theoretically be added, and adding a few more crossovers would allow simultaneous departures. So, the limitations are not insurmountable, and handling those limitations might cost just a song and a dance, as the expression goes.
The Sunset Route may be more interesting of a line than we have thought, and how the railroad deals with almost insurmountable challenges will make for a fascinating show.
“Manifest Yard,” Montclair, CA …
… and Arizona Politics
November 2007 TRAINS Magazine, Pages 30-41
It is presumed the new facility at the west end of Ontario, CA that extends west to within Montclair is what is meant by a new “manifest yard at Montclair” in the November 2007 TRAINS Magazine, page 36 single paragraph that starts on page 35.
Perhaps various outlying yards would send boxcars, tank cars, lumber cars – the manifest concept -- to the Montclair facility, and trains would be made up, that would head to the three directions mentioned in the previous post, namely (1) north, (2) Midwest via Salt Lake City, and (3) east on the Sunset Route. Kind of a strange process if that is what was meant by the facility, but that would pacify the meaning of the description for getting some cars to Red Rock, AZ.
On page 38 of said TRAINS issue, paragraph 2, a political environment is mentioned whereby UP (not the State) would have to build two-tracking roadway grade separations! If that has not been resolved, that would explain the lack of two-tracking in Arizona. It might also explain the signals being erected on the western Phoenix Line.
If Arizona thinks it is politically smart by having UP pay for grade separations, they are very, very gravely mistaken. The public outcry of running 10 trains on each other’s block (fleeting) slowly through the winding track through Phoenix may backfire on politicians, and the public outcry would be great! A horrendous public outcry with absolutely NO relief in sight! (Union Pacific can’t two-track the remaining sections of the Sunset Route overnight.) And, if a government building burns to the ground because of a multi-alarm response to a fire that fire engines and trucks couldn’t get to the government buildings fast enough because grade crossing were blocked, heads will go flying … really go flying! An entirely new set of politicians might win elections by campaigning on the platform they are for paying for the remaining two-tracking of the Sunset Route in Arizona to get such ‘wicked’ trains out of Phoenix! That may be a stretch of the imagination, but who knows what a riled up will of the people will do …
KP, I am still not convinced that that mast on the Phoenix line is new, it is just well perserved in the desert.
Those two "new" signal masts have been there a long time. They were present and in the same condition as K.P.'s photos when I passed thru that area in the fall of 2011.
FYI, as a side note...Milepost 947 is my new forum "name". I was formally BNSF6400. So, new name but I have been here for a long time now.
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