K.P., Mike, eolesen:
Thank you for your awesome pictures!
K.P., here is a link to a Palm Springs newspaper article that again mentions passenger rail service between L.A. and Indio.
Cooperation with UP is the big issue. At least the Sunset Route has a lot of UP trains; when I hear UP has an issue with Vegas rail service, that is disappointing because the LA&SL line is not as busy as the Sunset Route.
Once saw a wide load parked on the around the signal turnout. could that be one reason for the swing out ? UP's track spacing of 20 - 25 ft would negate any need.
The loss of coal across Iowa is probably the reason the Blair Subdivision work and some other projects across eastern Nebraska and Iowa have been put on hold. The fact that more coal now goes via Gibbon Jct and down thru Kansas shows how much we've lost up here. Except for one train (run through to CSX) that did get rerouted through Kansas City and St. Louis, all the rest are gone completely, at least for now.
Other than coal, there hasn't been much of a change in numbers (train count) for other types of traffic. The number of coal, loads and returning empties is what has changed the last couple of years.
Jeff
BarstowRick (3-10):
All the photos in “The Going Around Signals Phenomena” series were No. 15 turnouts good for 30 M.P.H., except the switch in Casa Grande, AZ, which may have been a No. 13 probably timetabled as 25 M.P.H. at the time.
Take care,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Now go back and check the number and the degree of the curve...of the switch aka turnout and the speed restrictions and things will become even clearer.
It wasn't always, just about the location of the signal. A feasible deduction but not necessarily the whole of the story.
RickH
BarstowRick.com Model Railroading How To's
The Going Around Signals Phenomena
Part II (of I-II)
The east end of the Mortmar siding (CP SP SP935 at M.P. 834.6) down by Salton Sea of Southern California once had a pot signal between the tracks, thus, the track does not swing out in an S-curve. The siding now has a left hand lower signal (right).
Before being two-tracked, the east end of the Casa Grande siding had one of the S-curve track layouts.
The east end of the old Marne siding looking west at the old target signals, but here again the track swings out and back.
As far as such reverse curves being a “no-no,” well, not exactly. From the ground they look severe, especially with a telephoto lens, but in an aerial, things look a bit different, taking on a more swooping look, as an aerial of the east switch North Ontario siding in Ontario, CA shows:
LINK: Aerial of North Ontario's Swooping East End
So, when new signals are put in on the outsides of a main and a siding, why doesn’t the railroad realign the CP trackage? Simply put, in most cases there is no economic advantage in doing so. It is like when the old switching lead / interchange track in Colton, CA was pulled up (the Colton Flyover construction is just north or photo left of it), the Sunset Route jogs did NOT revert to straight track.
So, John, hopefully this all answers your questions satisfactorily.
Best,
Part I (of I-II)
On March 8, 2013 forum contributor desertdog inquired about reverse curve situations at some CP signal locations. An example of such is this east looking photo of the east switch of the North Ontario siding, at CP AL521 NORTH ONTARIO (M.P. 520.9).
Another example is the west switch of the Red Rock siding in Red Rock, AZ.
Back at the North Ontario siding in California …
… the barely seen pot target signal between the tracks was low and was in no danger of being sideswiped by a train going in or out of the siding, hence, there was no swinging out and back of the track to avoid a train sideswiping a mast signal.
Continued in Part II
Replies:
ccltrains (2-27):
If the Sunset Route bridges in Texas that don’t have “safety walkways” are anything like the proliferation of those on the Golden State Route, they simply are impassible by foot with a stopped train on them, like when air hoses disconnect, and probably inadvisable to cross under any circumstance, except maintenance-of-way with protection (a lookout person).
OSHA may not have jurisdiction on such bridges because the bridges’ main purpose is for a train to cross it, but I am technically in the dark on such matters.
billion (2-27):
Between Thermal, CA and Yuma, AZ that you inquired about, the line is still single-track, except (1) between the new CP SP637 SALTON and CP SP648 BERTRAM, and (2) between CP SP715 CACTUS and CP SP723 ARAZ. The CP numbers have correlation to the milepost vicinity.
However, from CP SP648 BERTRAM all the way to the Iris area (possibly around M.P. 676, plus or minus) is now graded. Aerials also show about 10 miles of grading west of Glamis, Glamis being in the general M.P. 698 area.
As far as two-tracking the Blair Sub north of Omaha, NE … I don’t think coal traffic is much of a consideration for that shortcut route. The majority of coal trains get off or on the Central Corridor at Gibbon Jct., NE (about M.P. 175, Omaha is M.P. 0.0) …
… and head towards or come from Kansas City, MO and never see the Blair Sub at all.
billion (3-2):
The Colorado River Bridge crossing …
… and its two-tracking will definitely have its own complications for sure.
But, billion, I’ve watched the operations there, and even the very limited time spent in the bridge vicinity tells me much bottlenecking is induced by UP itself
As an example, eastbound trains change crews on the Yuma side with the train hanging over the bridge.
Unless there is no other train(s) in the area, eastbound crew relief would be better made on the west, the California side of the river. The new crew, when they’ve got the green, would highball over the bridge and on to points east. If the power is always full of fuel on arrival, they could do the above very easily.
BNSF on the Transcon has had just a few short sections remaining of their two-tracking, and have easily gotten 100 trains a day through those very short single-track sections! Why not UP?
STEVEL (3-3):
It is too bad your visit to the Salton Sea area was marred by swarms of flies! I was by there in October too, and didn’t have that problem. I wonder if it is only a one week type thing …
As far as “35 miles” on the dirt Ted Kipf Road … It is only about 20 miles from Highway 78 east to Ogilby Rd., and that road is excellent. Were you thinking of the Ted Kipf Road WEST of Highway 78? A few years ago, towards the west end the road, it does get very sandy, so much so …
… I turned around and went back to Niland. Of course, I wasn’t driving a four-wheel drive vehicle either.
Take care all,
(A two-part series on signals immediately follows.)
Second Section
There has been some question about a future concrete tied switch (that will replace an old wooden tied one) …
… on the LA&SL in Ontario, west of Sultana Ave., which is just west of CP C038 ONTARIO that protects a branch track crossing (from the SP side).
In recent months concrete ties (likely used ones) had been staged in this area, and back on January 11, 2013 they were photographed. The ties were on BOTH sides of the electrical box on the upper left of the below reshown photo.
Of late, however, only the foreground ties are still there, the background ties have been taken away for some reason.
There has been some question of what size the future switch will be. Previously, it was posted the switch would be upgraded from a No. 15 to a No. 20, good for 40 M.P.H. One diagram even listed it as a No. 20, but other factors involving that turnout suggests otherwise. One numbered tie (on the ones that were taken away) seemed to have one tie with a high number, 118, typical of No. 20’s.
A color modified view to bring out the numbers:
So, unless a stenciling fluke occurred, there was at least one high numbered tie in the photographed group that was taken away.
However, the truth about the turnout is now known! The following January 11, 2013 photo, if one can mentally upside down the view, lists the tie for a right hand No. 15 turnout, which turnout is good for only 30 M.P.H.
It will be interesting to find out if the above switch will be powered or not, and whether the limits of CP C038 ONTARIO will be extended west to include that switch. If the future trackage off the Sunset Route discussed in the above posts is used to stage movements WEST from West Colton Yard’s Departure Yard, there would be no reason to power the switch shown in this “Second Section,” because those trains can’t get to the LA&SL in Colton, at least not easily and without a time consuming backup move(s)!
Third Section
A phenomenon raised by desertdog just yesterday, about s-curves by some siding switches, K.P. believes he can make a definitive statement on. But, it will take a little bit of time to make a case with his file photos. Watch for it in a day or two …
Update as of March 6, 2013
Field Checking the Area Again
Pomona-Ontario, CA
Part “D” (of A-D)
Further east still, past the Mountain Ave. overpass in Ontario, between the SP and LA&SL lines, a new development has occurred. Very large and dirt caked boulders have been collected.
K.P. has no interpretation about this development.
This will end this four part series. However, a “Second Section” follows.
Part “C” (of A-D)
The westbound went by and approached the new Ramona Ave. overpass. The pile of ballast extended right up to the siding track, the future Main 2.
Looking back east again, the wide, cleared grading suggests many (“many”) tracks will all funnel into a super big CP by Monte Vista Ave., though more precise grading needs to be had for such.
The EAST end of what is being built, at San Antonio Ave. in Ontario (NOT Pomona), is having 30 M.P.H. switches put in, so logically, its counterpart here by Monte Vista Ave. in Montclair, the WEST end, will have 30 M.P.H. switches also.
Continued in Part D
Part “B” (of A-D)
The Monte Vista grade crossing was stopped at next, and the location was way different from any other past visits. The grade crossing itself was all rebuilt, with new roadway pavement, and new crossing gates. The flasher lights weren’t always pointing the way they normally do.
It looks like a burial item for the old crossing gates was present still.
There was a big pile of new ballast, and some new ties were present also.
A train came …
… and the track was looked at closely. So much of the track had a newer appearance, there were new welds, etc., as if something was being put in here, like a new control point (CP)!
Continued in Part C
Part “A” (of A-D)
This posting series will be on a west to east basis.
At the San Antonio Ave. grade crossing in Pomona, looking east, it appears the right-of-way is fully graded now for a new, second-track on the south side of the SP line. The LA&SL line is parallel just to the south, the signal of which is on the upper right.
Two white hatted gentlemen were digging at a spot for an unknown reason.
Continued in Part B
Santa Fe, Southern Pacific and Union Pacific used the reverse curves for years. Something about the curve being sharp on the switch requiring the reverse swing in order to get the train through without stringling. Now, how much of that is true I don't know.
Upside, the older switches were not high speed switches as those discussed here, in third person, by K.P.H. So, I suspect the switch you see is from the older vintage and most likely will not remain as a permanent fixture.
I might add it was the slow orders through these older switches that often bogged things down (slowed things up) during the WWll era of mainlines. Today, they will hopefully be a thing of the past.
I suspect without any proof of the fact that the reverse curve is to give the engineer a view when the last car of the train has cleared the switch. This would only work where the siding is straight to effect a line of sight.
Can someone explain the purpose of the reverse curve in the bottom photo of Part XIII? I've seen this before in other locations and the answer I always received was that it was necessary to provide clearance to a signal or other obstruction between the two sets of track. In this case, clearance would not be a problem as the signals are located on either side of the ROW.
I always thought reverse curves were an engineering no-no, which adds to my puzzlement.
John Timm
Update as of Monday, March 4, 2013
Covering a Number of Bases
Part XIV (VIII-XIV, Overall of I-XIV)
The New Switches by San Antonio Ave.
Ontario, CA
The new switch just west of San Antonio Ave. has been connected to the new track through the grade crossing.
In comparing the above view with the below reshown February 19, 2013 photo …
… Continuous Welded Rail (CWR) has been newly dropped off and those rails are NOT together but separated as if a tie laying machine being by is imminent!
The new switches to the east of the grade crossing are now semi-installed.
The turnouts are still not totally connected together, as seen in the rail gaps below (middle to lower right).
Trains were operating through the area under a slow order.
-------------
This will conclude the series.
Part XIII (VIII-XIV, Overall of I-XIV)
The Odd Construction between the SP and LA&SL
Montclair-Ontario, CA
Looking westbound from the Central Ave. over, an eastbound is visible just west of the west switch of the North Montclair siding. The cleared land is present all the way back. The LA&SL is seen on the left.
A heavy westward telephoto:
In both of the above views, grade crossing devices are seen on the photos’ bottoms. That Monte Vista Ave. grade crossing will be brought up in a day or two.
Looking east again, the signal is high green now, and that above eastbound approaches it.
Continued in Part XIV
Part XII (VIII-XIV, Overall of I-XIV)
From the Central Ave. overpass, looking east on the SP side, with CP AL518 NORTH MONTCLAIR (M.P. 518.2) and track equipment in view:
Above, the Mountain Ave. overpass is in the background. Note the two ribbon rails on each side of the single-track in the background, and the clear land on the upper right.
At ground level, a machine with a barricade zips by.
Just above, note the orange fencing by where a bunch of activity was at in last Monday’s report post.
An eastward telephoto:
Continued in Part XIII
Part XI (VIII-XIV, Overall of I-XIV)
LA&SL-Streeter Ave. Grade Separation
Riverside, CA
The foreground Main 2 south signal’s ladder is roped down.
Why is unknown. It is not like the ladder is going to run away …
Continued in Part XII
Part X (VIII-XIV, Overall of I-XIV)
The signals will have to be relocated to … But, they probably will be left there and dark, and two new ones put in the shoofly.
Equipment is working in the area, right by residences.
Continued in Part XI
Part IX (VIII-XIV, Overall of I-XIV)
The LA&SL Streeter Ave. area was two-tracked in 1992-3 before the Sunset Route was even thought of being in the Union Pacific Empire. Here, right in the middle of a three mile section, an underpass is presently in the works.
Looking basically northward:
Looking southwest: The parallel to the tracks Dewey Ave. is on the photo bottom: Normally shooflies (UP spelling) are used to reroute the tracks at the underpass sight, so likely the tracks will have to be laid on heavy ballast poured on Dewey Ave.
Track equipment is already in the area, in an uncontrolled siding on the other side of Streeter Ave.
Continued in Part X
Part VIII (VIII-XIV, Overall of I-XIV)
On September 30, 2012 when the cantilever structure that is now on the west side of CP SP542 LOMA LINDA (but still not activated yet) was at the Colton Signal Dept. and the detour grade crossing box for Streeter Ave. in Riverside was there too, the following photo was taken.
That grade crossing electrical box is now on site in Riverside.
LINK: Streeter Ave. Underpass Info
Continued in Part IX
Part VII (I-VII, Overall of I-XIV)
LA&SL Bridge Replace Over the 91 Freeway
Light blue heavy equipment is being used on the freeway construction. The BNSF is on the photo’s lower left.
The 91 Freeway is below camera ground level here.
The middle transition signal: UP color light on middle mast right, BNSF target two-head signal on mast’s left. Note the crossing gate and flashers on the right background.
That grade crossing (mentioned above) is Cridge St.
LINK: Cridge St. and 91-Freeway UP Bridge Aerial
The Cridge Street overpass has totally been torn down in the freeway widening effort, and is no longer usable for railroaders or railbuffs. Undoubtedly it will be replaced.
That gone bridge was the bridge the below previously shown September 30, 2012 photos were shot from.
---------------
Continued in Parts VIII-XIV scheduled for posting Friday, March 8, 2013 by noon Pacific Time …
Part VI (I-VII, Overall of I-XIV)
In the Pachappa Hill area of Riverside, by the apartments off Panorama Drive, a big mound of dirt has been collected. Photo taken from the north side. The BNSF Transcon is on the bottom.
The UP replacement bridge over the 91 Freeway is now in the very early stages of construction.
Continued in Part VII
Part V (I-VII, Overall of I-XIV)
The Colton Flyover
Colton, CA
Rebar structuring for the orange top walling is being put in place EAST of Colton Crossing.
The WEST slope’s walling is finally getting higher.
On “K” Street by Rancho Ave., where K.P. tends to park, it could be seen nothing key items wise had changed on the far west slope, so off to the next place on the agenda …
Continued in Part VI
Part IV (I-VII, Overall of I-XIV)
In the southeast quadrant, looking northwestward, a BNSF eastbound (rightward) comes by (in a rather hot and heavily trafficked rail scene).
Just above, if you look real good, the new bridges over the BNSF now have a thin fencing present.
Continued in Part V
Part III (I-VII, Overall of I-XIV)
A westward telephoto of the east slope’s north side activity:
The cantilever signal bridge parts for the east end of the future CP SP540 MT VERNON (presently CP SP541 ICE DECK) is at the Colton Signal Dept. yard.
Above, on this visit a good view could be had. Previously, a grade crossing box was partially blocking the cantilever structure. More on where that grade crossing box is at now will be shown in a couple of posts.
Continued in Part IV
Part II (I-VII, Overall of I-XIV)
On Monday’s series, the flyover’s west slope’s abbreviated non-full width walling (bottom) was shown, and is reshown here.
The EAST slope is apparently having the same treatment, for instead of the orange top parts as the north side (right), temporary mental protective fencing is used.
Continued in Part III
Part I (I-VII, Overall of I-XIV)
At the east side of the Colton Flyover construction, as previously noted in this thread, a new signal mast has been erected but the lower head had not been on yet.
The above forefront two-direction headed mast for Main 1 (with only a lower right stem but its head not installed yet) has troubled K.P. because of the lack of a left lower stem for a lower left head for westbound trains, and the site was return to for more area study in case something had been missed. Low and behold, the railroad figured out what K.P. already knew, and apparently changed out the whole signal mast!
So now, K.P. is at peace with everything making sense! But, a new question has arisen … The new lower left head has a two-bulb unit. Either it will be an absolute signal (unlikely) or the left lower head will have yellow and lunar bulbs (likely). As seen in the below reshown view from Rancho Ave., the next future signal interlocking is the big CP SP538 RANCHO. All crossover and turnout ROUTES are 30 M.P.H. except the one going up the East Leg of Wye to the Palmdale Cutoff (top), which has a 30 M.P.H. turnout, but the route is timetable restricted to 15 M.P.H., making a yellow over lunar by Mt. Vernon in order.
The just above photo was previously shown.
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