Surveying and Railroading
Part II (of I-II)
At that time K.P. got the impression that the powers that be were investigating possibilities, like widening and straighten the highway. It is unknown if sometime in the future Highway 138 will be widened or not, but an underpass (Ranchero Rd.) on the east slope of Cajon Pass started construction just months later, on a more direct route. It is three-tracks wide.
Back at Summit … Who knows what the Caltrans workers were surveying for, but they were on site, and a guy and a gal were friendly to talk with. Below, a surveyor and what appears to be a supervisor talk matters over.
The famous train summit is in eyeshot of where those surveyors were at.
Some of the LA&SL trains in Cajon Pass transfer to the Sunset Route in Colton, and head west to Los Angeles and vice versa.
Some UP trains in Cajon Pass go through Riverside on the alternate Sunset Route, and by that posted about survey marking with the green spray paint circle.
The BNSF Bridge over the I-215 Freeway in the Highgrove / Grand Terrace Area
A number of months ago construction had started for the replacement railroad structure over the I-215 Freeway in the freeway widening project there. Then it seemed to abruptly stop. But, on Friday, February 7, 2014 K.P. passed the site and a bunch of work vehicles were again present.
AERIAL LINK: The Present Railroad Bridge
Why there was a delay is unknown, but we should start seeing (hopefully, anyway) some action bridge construction-wise.
The site is on the alternate Sunset Route.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Part I (of I-II)
A few days ago a single photo of a surveying mark in Riverside, CA caused quite a stir in this thread.
On April 14, 2011 K.P. stumbled upon Caltrans surveyors at Summit in Cajon Pass.
Highway 138 in Cajon Pass needs widening and straightening for sure.
Continued in Part II
Steve- Thanks for the info on how to post photos. I will try that.
While in school after I took the surveying class I spent a summer surveying the Arkright mine for Consolidation Coal. Even though i would be surveying 200 feet from the coal face where active mining was going on I managed to inhale coal dust. At night i would blow my nose and it was black. I see how the miners got black lung disease. Even was caught in a very minor underground explosion. That really scared me and that was when I changed from mining to petroleum engineering for a major.
Dick
Dick - Yes, I do contract surveying for a mine here in Western Colorado. I used to survey underground but now I only do surface work. I have surveyed all the drillholes, roads, conveyor belts, and the railroad loadout.
If you want to post pictures here on this Forum you should look a getting a photobucket account. No cost to sign up - There is a learning curve but not that hard to figure out.
Steve
Steve-
Thanks for your fast reply. Looking at your pictures it appears that you are in the mining business. Although not a miner I graduated from West Virginia University (WVU) with a Petroleum Engineering degree. Took several mining classes while there and that is where I learned about surveying. Did a little surveying after graduating. I earned the first Petroleum Engineering degree from the School of Mines at WVU. Prior to my graduation the Pet E degree was called Engineer of Mines, Oil and Gas Option degree.
My transit really is a theodolite made by Stanley in London. Rather than photograph mine, and considering I do not know how to post like you and KP do, I located Stanley's web page. They now are engaged in making reproductions of many type of instruments. On their web page, Stanleylondon.com, tabs: Miscellaneous, Measurement & Surveying, Theodolites they have several pictures, far superior to any I could produce, and a great writeup of the theodolite. Mine is an original theodolite, not their fully calibrated working reproduction. I have all parts except the tripod. Since they quote a price of $2,375, I think I will put mine in the safe. Thank you for tweaking my mind to look up Stanley. I was well educated today.
Cheers, Dick Watkins
Here is my Young & Sons Transit made in Philadelphia
Here is my Electronic Total Station with Data Collector
Here is my GPS Base Station ( Fun working in 3 Ft Snow )
Steve- Your discussion brings back faint memories of when I surveyed early in my professional engineering career. At that time we used brass transits, plumb bulbs, and the steel tape. Things have changed in surveying over the 50 years since I was doing it. I even have an old brass transit in my book case. (Bought it in London)
By Cridge St., this surveying mark and its numbers captured K.P.’s attention. Maybe someone at the forum can interpret its specific meaning for us.
"By Cridge St., this surveying mark and its numbers captured K.P.’s attention. Maybe someone at the forum can interpret its specific meaning for us"
10+62.32 = 1062.32 feet
Surveyors use this nomenclature when surveying anything defined by a centerline such as a railroad. We refer to this as a station.
Station 0+00 = the point the centerline begins.
Station 1+00 = 100 feet from the point of beginning 5+25 = 525 feet etc.
This goes back to the old days when surveyors use the old brass transits and a 100 foot chain as our surveying tools. But, we still use this nomenclature today with modern surveying equipment such as GPS and Electronic Total Stations.
What we do is enter the centerline data into our data collectors. So for example 0+00 is at the end of a curve where the centerline changes from Curve to Tangent ( Straight Line, not curved ). This is known as POT ( Point of Tangent ) The next point will be the beginning of the next curve POC ( Point of Curve ) and you exit the curve at the next POT. You might also have spiral easements into the curve. For each curve you enter the curve data, CL Radius, Degree of Curve or Centeral Angle, is the curve left or right. After the centerline data is in the data collector the surveyor can call up any point on that centerline and set that point. Also you have offsets from centerline left and right. So the station 5+50, 20 Ft Left can be keyed into the data collector and the software will take you to that point. The true centerline will be ripped up by construction equipment so usually we set stakes offset to one side. Also there is the vertical to every survey. Elevation data goes with each point. So for example 0+00 to 4+00 might be at 0.2% grade. 4+00 to 6+50 might be a vertical curve changing from a 0.2% to a 0.5% grade. 6+50 to 9+75 is at 0.5% grade. The changes in the vertical grade data will not always be the came as the horizontal CL points.
That nail with the 10+62.32 tag in the green circle looks to be set in asphalt. My guess is that that is not really on the centerline where the track will be. It might be a control point that the surveyors can set up their tripod, or used as a check point, or an offset reference point. That nail might be point #439 in his data collector that is at centerline station 10+62.32
Usually with big railroad projects the centerline stationing will get quite large so you will have large stations numbers 1035+42.10. It is possible that the 10+62.32 is for a smaller sub-project such as a couple thousand feet of sidewalk alongside the railroad right-of-way. Or maybe a section of sewer pipe that has to be re-located. ( Sewer pipes are usually marked with green paint )
The numbers circled with green spray paint (10 + 67.32) are engineering stationing measurments. They mean that this location is 1067.32 feet from the beginning (of what we don't know). Engineers use 100 feet as a 'station' when they locate the points critical to whatever they are doing.
Update as of Friday, February 7, 2014:
The Status of the New LA&SL Railroad Bridge over the 91 Freeway
Riverside, CA
Part “D” (of A-D)
That not installed switch in two pieces trackside (for an unknown purpose) still is in two pieces.
The new, future Metrolink signal (the tall one) seems inconsistent with track ahead, it might need a two-bulb lower head.
Above, another possibility … It might be only a temporary, interim signal, with even another signal replacement in the future.
Looking north-like, the Metrolink track seems signaled …
… so exactly why it would have in the future a red over flashing red is unclear. Presently with the old signals eastbound Metrolink’s receive a red over lunar.
Anyway, it doesn’t look long now until the new bridge over the 91 Freeway has trains operating over it, which means some trains to or from Arizona and New Mexico on the Sunset Route will be going over the new bridge on this alternate Sunset Route.
Part “C” (of A-D)
On the northeast side of the 91 Freeway now … by Cridge Street …
Currently, a Metrolink train that comes towards the camera can (“can” as not all do) take the Metrolink non-turnout route’s straight track on the lower right.
An eastbound UP would take the turnout route and come towards the camera on the lower center track (above photo).
On the below photo, however, the new, future track layout is the opposite, with the Metrolink taking the turnout route (center), and a UP will take the straight non-turnout route (center track, far left).
A telephoto of old and new, future signals.
Just above, the signal in the photo center … At this point in time K.P. cannot reconcile the future signal with the likely track arrangement. This is one to watch …
Continued in Part D
Part “B” (of A-D)
On the photo’s lower left, the new bridge vertical walling slantingly comes out a bit.
Another view slightly moved over, looking eastbound.
The below few days ago photo is reshown for comparison.
K.P. is embarrassed to admit he got fooled a few days ago, but that previously shown photo, the signal on the far right is NOT a UP single-bulb red over a single-bulb red color light signal, but a BNSF target signal that will govern UP entrance to the BNSF mains.
The left present and future signals will be commented on in a moment.
A heavy telephoto of the second photo’s view:
Above, note the Metrolink platforms (right of center) and the overhead walkway in the distance.
Continued in Part C
Part “A” (of A-D)
Views from the southwest side, from Panorama Rd. looking northeast …
New and old bridges, with unballasted track now crudely on the new bridge:
The new track and temporary switch for ballast trains and track tampers, etc.
The present track:
Continued in Part B
Replies:
Clyde Acolita (2-9):
Concerning the “Private Eyeing and the Almost Magical” post series posted February 4, 2014 (pages 317-318), except for the dated 2011 photos in Part I, all the photos in Parts II through VI were taken on Wednesday, January 29, 2014, THREE days after the “General Order” you mentioned went into effect.
Unless those ‘power derails’ are invisible or Star Trek ‘cloaked,’ they simply weren’t there, and the February 4 posted January 29 photos speak for themselves.
A few years ago the old Ontario Branch track (presumably now identified as the Sunkist Business Track) had its signals (north and south) at CP C038 ONTARIO modernized (including a new CP box), but they still displayed red or lunar. That signal display is inconsistent with the railroad’s current signaling policy. The current policy calls for a just red or flashing red (in-lieu-of lunar). That upgrade a few years ago may have been just an interim situation, and if so, even they may be replaced with red and flashing red soon. If so, perhaps the ‘power derails’ you spoke of, Clyde, is part of the planned upgrade package of planners, but whoever wrote the “General Order” you spoke of might have jumped the gun and thought the derails were already there, but in actuality weren’t yet.
I suspect some Omaha accounting wizardry (and their wondrous magical craft) is involved, and what you spoke of, Clyde, will come about, perhaps rather soon as the new interlocking arrangement of CP C038 ONTARIO is still physically evolving and hasn’t been finish in its entirety yet.
(PS: For clarification, a note has been inserting into that February 4, 2014 post series that the photos in Parts II-VI were taken Wednesday, January 29, 2014.)
BNSF6400 (2-9):
I think you are absolutely right, BNSF6400!
Take care all,
K.P.
I'm confused. Are there power derails installed inside the OS at Ontario C038 or not? Sometimes I get confused looking at your photos because no dates are noted.
All I can tell you is the current UP General Order explicitly indicates power derails in service, as does the new signal software.
SI-15 - ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTIONSFollowing changes will be in effect at 0900 on January 26, 2014:Dual control switch installed at MP 37.9 for westward movementsentering Montclair Yard. Signal at CP CO38 will display red overflashing red when routed through switch onto yard lead.Dual control derails installed on Sunkist lead, north and south ofLos Angeles Subdivision main track within CP CO38.
Memo to John Simpkins-Camp (2-7) and …
… SP657E44 (2-8) and all:
One of my infamous sudden, unexpected happenings trips occurred yesterday to San Bernardino, a town next to Colton and the Colton Flyover. Afterward, I extensively was able checked out that LA&SL Bridge over the 91 Freeway in Riverside and it can be said definitively that it is only a single-track bridge!
It is hoped to post the findings and a number of views and angles in a day or two.
Best,
Picture 18 on page 295 clearly shows the bridge is single track width. Pachappa cut to the west furthers this conclusion.
A10
K.P.:
Interesting to know that your observations support a possible second track on this bridge.
As discussed in a previous conversation in the forum, the noticeably beefier structure (compared to the old one) might be due to a double-tracking scenario and the need to support the locomotive weight of two-way meet.
John
Update as of Monday, February 3, 2014
The LA&SL and the 91 Freeway
Part III (of I-III)
A new switch (?) in two pieces is now laying trackside.
K.P. snuck in briefly for these photos during an all-day dispatch. It is hoped a less demanding time period will arise soon so a more thorough checking out of this area can be made, and better photo angles had.
Part II (of I-III)
South of Cridge Street ... From the east side of the tracks, the new CP box … Plus, It is unclear how many tracks will be by here.
On the west side of the tracks now … The new (right) and old (left) signals. Note the far right mast signal. It only has single-bulb heads! So it will be able to display red over red, flashing red over red, red over flashing red, or everything dark.
A laying down signal with a three-bulb head and a single-bulb head!
Continued in Part III
Part I (of I-III)
By the new railroad bridge (right) over the 91 Freeway, a white UP bus was near Panorama Rd. There must be a lot of UP workers here now.
The bridge still is not in service …
… but unleveled track appears to be on it.
If one looks real closely at that track, it almost looks like the bridge will have two tracks over it!
Santa Teresa, NM
Part “B” (of A-B)
West past the fueling tracks that the mains go through. Note all the mast signals.
A west signal bridge at CP S1274.
CP S1273:
Just above, note the two-bulb top head on the left signal.
A picture is worth a thousand words, they say. And, thanks to Kevin Gray most of us non-area residents have more of an idea what is actually out at Santa Teresa. Thanks again, Kevin!
Part “A” (of A-B)
Word has been received from Kevin Gray about his in-progress trip via Amtrak’s Sunset Limited, Trains 1 and 2, in which he was able to take photos while passing the new UP complex at Santa Teresa, NM. His passing through photos give us the truth of what is actually out that way, and are a radical departure from even what K.P. interpreted from sources that have access to official information! Thanks Kevin!
All the Kevin Gray photos in this two-part series were taken westbound on Amtrak #1, looking east. The CP designations are from his notes.
Looking back towards CP S1280 TARMAC:
The new signal bridge by CP S1277 EAST STRAUSS:
Amtrak #1 passed right through the fuel racks area:
Minor correction: Coming south the first switch was a trailing point back to the left, the next was a facing point also to the left. The third was trailing and crossed the second on a diamond immediately to the left of the main track, then crossed the track going to the cold storage building on the NE corner of California and Monterey and then crossed a fourth trailing point switch on the left that curved back to the east with a switchback to the cold storage spurs.
Three diamonds on the only remaining spur.
Ontario - You should have seen the branch when Sunkist was still there. Going south you had a switch to the left - through a diamond crossing a trailing spur, further you had a diamond crossing the branch right at the edge of the street. The building on that NE corner had a spur on the east side, and a double spur on the south accessed by the diamond. If you can find an old SPINS book it'll show the tracks going every which way.
Private Eyeing and the Almost Magical
Ontario, CA
Part VI (of I-VI)
We return to the Sunset Route mains. From Campus Ave. looking west, the branch line’s entrance signal is barely visible on the left because of its color blending in with the surroundings. There doesn’t appear to be a purple derail “D” sign.
To the west, on the north side of the tracks, there is another entrance signal, this one lit also, but that track DOES have a derail and purple “D” sign!
We end here on our private eyeing. At least the forum has a visual idea of what is in the area. The branch may not (“may not”) be under UP’s operating jurisdiction, and the outfit running that ex-Ontario Branch probably doesn’t want to put any money into the line since it technically probably doesn’t own it.
K.P. doesn’t see much of a future for the line, and sometime in the progress of time the line might be pulled up. Then, the single-track mainline through CP C038 ONTARIO likely will be two-tracked, as insinuated by the single-track Sultana Ave LA&SL grade crossing with a gate and flashers already positioned for two-tracks.
-------
On Monday, February 3, 2014 K.P. was dispatched to Hemet (CA), and on the way he was able to briefly check on the status of new LA&SL Bridge over the 91 Freeway in Riverside. A report on the findings is being put together.
Part V (of I-VI)
The Phillips St. grade crossing in that jog has NO crossbucks or warning devices.
Continued in Part VI
Part IV (of I-VI)
Towards the south end of that branch the line jogs. Looking north:
Looking south:
The background right track curves to the left and heads east (leftward) to the Sunkist plant.
Continued in Part V
Part III (of I-VI)
South of the LA&SL, looking north:
The branch-like track still utilizes manual, hand throw derails.
While photographing this area, the signal suddenly activated, and went from dark to displaying red. No train was on the branch track.
Ah, the magical! Apparently, the new color lights have their circuitry set up if any train is in the diamond block or if a train is lined through it in any direction, all the signals in all directions light up.
Continued in Part IV
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