cacoleWhere would the UP be using that many wood ties?
- the west end of the Phoenix sub near Buckeye. Posts elsewhere indicate an uptick in incoming loads. Not sure how much rehab is complete.
- new storage tracks and switching lead at Montclair yard. Two full length tracks would be over three miles worth of ties.
- any other speculation?
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
A few thoughts...
1) The UP is using concrete on the new track, but they're still putting in wood where the existing main needs to be rehab'd
2) Stocking up for the yard at Red Rock
16 Hours …
On the Martin Luther King Holiday of Monday, January 21, 2013, the above number of hours was trip-spent by K.P. in (1) Nevada, (2) the Tehachapi area in California, and (3) a quick stop in Lancaster, CA. The Nevada material will be used in part in the “Tehachapi: Two-Tracking Updates” thread, and another part for this “Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates” topic in the near future. But, organizing and composing presentations will take several days. In the meantime, some replies …
Replies
BarstowRick (Follow-Up to 1-11 / 1-18):
In the 16-hour trip mentioned above, a brief last stop was made in Lancaster just to photograph the signal (efficient diode type) you mentioned as a follow-up for you and those interested.
I don’t believe the San Bernardino station’s stop has such a signal, but seems like entrance to the station complex is with a flashing red. While I have not seen it, the Lancaster’s signal for entrance to the station Main must be a yellow, with red over flashing red or red over lunar for the side track.
BNSF6400 (1-20):
Thanks for the technical tidbit on who now controls the “Short Way” in San Bernardino.
I haven’t seen a BNSF or UP use the Short Way in years. Your post explains why.
Years ago I use to visit a personal friend tower operator at West Yard Tower from time to time, and he use to run most UP’s the Short Way. When he did run eastbound UP’s the long way, by the tower, he ALWAYS crossed them over by the tower. That way they would get a yellow (the territory indication for crossing over) and not a green (even though everything “Two-Side” crossed over at Mt. Vernon), when Cajon Pass was all ABS. UP engineers in those days feared nothing, and with a green signal, used to pass the tower so fast that it would practically scare him to death! Oh, how times have changed!
cacole (1-21):
Many at the forum, including me, somehow envision everything involving two-tracks as having all concrete ties. But, in reality, much of the alongside tracks are still wooden ties, like in the Sentinel, AZ area, where the original main was never changed out to concrete ties. The below reshown photo of that area was taken January 30, 2010.
Where the long train you saw was going is unknown, but there sure is plenty of possibilities. MikeF90 had some very good suggestions.
Take care all,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Re: Santa Teresa Yard, NM.
On another website (Trainorders -- Western Railroads Discussion) there appeared some excellent photos of construction progress to date (see post dated 01/22/13 at 03:20). Cheers!
K.P. we must have posted at about the same time or I stopped to comment on the late side. Thanks for the photo shoot at Landcaster. Yep, still scratching my head on that one.
Oh, well, here is my response.
Wood ties can be used for temporary track, M.O.W. storage tracks, shoo-flies and to keep us all confused and asking questions.
A friend of mine shared with me some news about the transportation hub going into down town San Bernardino: http://omnitrans.files.wordpress.com...n-12-06-01.jpg Originally speculation was pondering whether it would give access to the Orange Show Grounds? Once the tracks were laid it was obvious they didn't take it far enough South.
BNSF still uses the tracks to Redlands to serve a number of industies. For how much longer, is the question? But, you have me thinking as to when was the last time I saw them operating the switch run? Those fine folk in Redlands would be wise to find a way too utilize those tracks and encourage industries that ship by rail to move into their town. Never mind the positive influence it would have on their tax base. With today's technology going green shouldn't be that big a problem and we should be able to keep air quality priority one.
Once proposed was a container shipping yard with leads into the old Norton Air Base. I will never understand why but the green minded folk and friends of San Bernardino all fought it. Jumping up and down like gumbies on the wild. Again, do I need to point out... tax base, jobs created and income in general it would bring to the IE. You have to ask, what were they thinking?
There are plans on the table for a restored (sort of) Redlands Loop for commuter purposes. San Bag has been looking into this and I would agree with them, as it has some real potential. Old news in the sense of previous discussions but is still a real possiblity. With regards to Redlands, I thought you might be interested in this: http://sanbag.ca.gov/projects/redlan...T_05-11-12.pdf
Hearing the snack bar at the former Santa Fe Passenger Station, San Bernardino, CA. closed... saddens me. It was run by the museum ladies auxillary and I'ma guessing it just didn't pay it's way.
Question: K.P. in one of your pictures looking east across the present (temporary) Colton crossing, I only see one set of BNSF tracks. Or is that just the angle of the shot and the camera found a way to hide the other track? Also, am I hearing you right...? Will there be three mains coming across on the BNSF tracks, when the project is completed?
Edited add on:
Follow up Question (Even the press in the White House gets a follow-up question...grin!)
One more question. What tracks are you referring to when you I.D. "Short Way" and Redlands in the same breath? Is this the old SP tracks that ran into Norton AFB or the former Santa Fe tracks to Redlands.
Credits: Links here are courtesy of John Acosta aka Josta.
RickH
BarstowRick.com Model Railroading How To's
Billio,
You have to belong to and pay for a subscription, to be able to visit and see what's happening over on TrainOrders. Is there another way you could present this. Do they use a link Ie., Photobucket, that you could also link us to here?
Edited Follow-up: Can you link us to the ensuing discussion on TO?
I think I posted this back a while back, but if I did not check out this location on Google Maps.
31.90319, -106.75293
Thx IGN
Also the engineers for the Strauss Yard (Santa Teresa, NM) have this on their site:
http://www.wilsonco.com/projects/rail/strauss%20yard
Also here are the UP press releases and maps:
http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/attachments/media_kit/regional/western/santa_teresa/updates/may_2012.pdf
http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/attachments/media_kit/regional/western/santa_teresa/updates/feb_2012.pdf
http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/attachments/media_kit/regional/western/santa_teresa/santa-teresa_factsheet.pdf
http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/attachments/media_kit/regional/western/santa_teresa/schematic.pdf
http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/attachments/media_kit/regional/western/santa_teresa/location_map.pdf
Not that I 'm aware of.
Re: TO, thanks for trying.
Appreciate the links you provided to the Teresa Project.
BarstowRick (1-23):
1st Section
I think this is the photo you were referring to:
It is the angle so that it only looks like there is one Transcon cross track, but rest assured there are two tracks there at Colton Crossing.
In the past, official sources have assured me there is sufficient width under the I-10 Freeway overpass for a third BNSF Main, and I think that is what the great master plan calls for. The hang-up is the bad right-of-way situation under the Barton Rd. overpass in Grand Terrace / Colton. My perception, though, with the future three new bridges over I-215 in Highgrove, things don’t add up at Barton Rd. Hopefully, I will be able to talk to an official and get the scoop on the situation.
As far as the “Short Way” and Redlands [Loop], the Short Way is Main 4 between San Bernardino and Rana. Historically, the Redlands Loop starts just east of the San Bernardino Depot, and goes across 3rd Street …
… and travels to beyond Redlands, where the line now ends. In the past, it continued east, turned north in Mentone, then turned back west, went through Highland, Del Rosa, and connected back to the “1st District” (now Cajon Sub) …
… at Highland Jct., where the tracks turn in the distance above. Back in those days, of course, the present Main 3 (right track) didn’t exist.
That loop made up the “Redlands Loop.” Warbonnet passenger F-units often graced the line.
Continued in 2nd Section
2nd Section
One of the links in your post, BarstowRick, showed a future, projected loop-type track that follows 3rd Street instead of the original route, which route is now lost forever, being built over with businesses and houses.
Two photos shot from the Beaver Medical Group grounds in Highland, the first one looking east across Boulder Ave.
A westward view: The track probably was on an alignment where the vehicle backs are at on the left.
LINK: An Aerial of the Area of the Above Photos
The Redlands Loop was the angled cross right-of-way in the above link.
The old SP track by the old Norton Air Force Base (now San Bernardino International Airport) is practically all gone, and was NOT the track meant.
AFTER the Sunset Route was laid through the Colton-Redlands area in 1875, many branch tracks of various railroads came and went over the years, as somewhat noted in this reply.
Take care,
K.P. thanks for the heads up and photo's of the old right of way that once was the Redlands Loop. Now I has a better understanding. I know the old loop well but it is still a treat to see pictures of the former right of way.
The proposal, restoration of the Redlands Loop as put out by SanBag will use the southern portion of the former Santa Fe line to Redlands and the northern portion, what I think is an old PE line that once ran on the north side of the former Norton Air Force Base. Looks to me they will need to build a new bridge over the Santa Ana River. I would like to see Metro open a loop that would indeed serve Redlands, Highland and San Bernardino.
What pictures I have of the old Redlands Loop showed the AT&SF (boiler fitted) Zebra Stripe, GP7's pulling the commuter trains. I do recall talk of the War Bonnets doing special runs for rail fan clubs and the likes.
Barstow, San Bernardino, Los Angeles is where my family of rails worked for the Santa Fe. My dad as a kid used to come down to San Bernardino and ride the trolley's and red cars. You could get around pretty well....back then. Now they want you to hoof it. I said not grinning.
So the "Short Way" is the older SP/PE lines later governed by UP after the UP/ SP merger into it's family. Seems to me there was tracks that ran out of Colton and across the former I 15, to what is today the Inland Center Mall. Would that be what you youngsters are talking about?
As a bonus here: The UP/SP merger, restored Harriman's dream, finally merging two railroads the UP and SP. He owned both at one time and the government pulled a anti-trust action on him and it was resolved. He separated the two but you have to wonder who was the parent company of both railroads? I believe he held the majority of stock holder's votes.
** Tucson Mini-Update **
Not much progress in the past week. The rail/tie machine had been stuck in the same spot near SP 964 for the past 10 days, although there were no flat cars there during the past week, at least up until Tuesday morning.
Sometime in the past 48 hours, it was restocked. There are now 40 loaded tie flats in position, which equates to ~6300 ties, or just over 12,000 feet of track, which is a little more than half of what is required to literally finish the last 4 miles of track.
How do I know how many ties there are?... I counted... ;)
Each row of ties is 21 front to back, and they're stacked 3 or 4 rows high, with two racks on each flat.
The 915xxx series flats carry 4+4, the 914xxx series flats only carry 4+3, and what is staged is mixed about 50/50 between the two series of flats. (21 x 7.5 x 40 = 6300).
This morning, I also noticed a crew lifting/dragging ribbon rail across the tracks to the subgraded area, which is necessary since the rail train drops rail on both sides of the main. Why they don't figure out an easier way to dump it on the construction side is a mystery...
Update as of Friday, January 25, 2013
The Colton Flyover
Colton, CA
In an unexpected Friday dispatch consuming the whole day, from sun up to sun down, only after dark was there any time to review the Colton area. Previously in this thread, the below two photos were shown, of the new, incomplete bridge spans in the Colton Crossing area.
Because of the darkness, taking photos was not practical, but it looked like the rest of the bridge spans were now in place.
In the below reshown photo, a thin concrete strip was in place on the north side of the tracks just east of Rancho Ave.
Because of the darkness, the status of the concrete strip is unknown. However, it could be seen at ground level very near Rancho Ave. that a line of flyover concrete side modules had been put in place and were stacked a couple high at this point in time.
It is hoped sometime next week the Colton Flyover can be seen (and photographed) in daylight hours …
K.P., BNSF6400 and of course everyone tuned in here.
I did my own research and came up with the "Short Way" being the track that parallels the old Santa Fe B Yard. Formerly known as the Santa Fe "Short Way". I knew it as the "Short Cut" but what do I know? It was used by UP and AT&SF to get passenger trains past the congestion in the B Yard. At one time there was a wye on the A Yard End. There they could turn commuter type trains aka Chipewa Chief, no longer there today.
I don't know of a time when UP managed or handled train movements on that rail segment. Today, It's still there and comes in on a large curve just before the Mt. Vernon bridge entering the Metro Link yard and station. Connecting with the track from the fly over.
After reviewing the comments and pictures submitted here and talk of a Tower on the UP where trains used to bomb through the diamond scaring the fella's in the tower. Not familiar with such. Unless we are talking about the PE diamond manned by PE staff or the Colton Crossover Tower. IMSMC the Colton Crossover and Tower, belonged to the AT&SF and staffed by their crews. Court case, settlement and don't ask me I wasn't around then. Grin. It may have had a shared staffing at one time...not sure. Does this put us on the same page?
See: http://www.donwinter.com/Railroad%20Infrastructure%20and%20Traffic%20Data/Regions/Southern%20California/Places/San%20Bernardino.htm
Sorry, K.P. it's been a while since I've railfanned with newbies to know and understand what the youngsters are calling things, today. Sigh!
BarstowRick K.P. and of course everyone tuned in here. I did my own research and came up with the "Short Way" being the track that parallels the old Santa Fe B Yard. Formerly known as the Santa Fe "Short Way". I knew it as the "Short Cut" but what do I know? It was used by UP and AT&SF to get passenger trains past the congestion in the B Yard. At one time there was a wye on the A Yard End. There they could turn commuter type trains aka Chipewa Chief, no longer there today. I don't know of a time when UP managed or handled train movements on that rail segment. Today, It's still there and comes in on a large curve just before the Mt. Vernon bridge entering the Metro Link yard and station. Connecting with the track from the fly over. After reviewing the comments and pictures submitted here and talk of a Tower on the UP where trains used to bomb through the diamond scaring the fella's in the tower. Not familiar with such. Unless we are talking about the PE diamond manned by PE staff or the Colton Crossover Tower. IMSMC the Colton Crossover and Tower, belonged to the AT&SF and staffed by their crews. Court case, settlement and don't ask me I wasn't around then. Grin. It may have had a shared staffing at one time...not sure. Does this put us on the same page? See: http://www.donwinter.com/Railroad%20Infrastructure%20and%20Traffic%20Data/Regions/Southern%20California/Places/San%20Bernardino.htm Sorry, K.P. it's been a while since I've railfanned with newbies to know and understand what the youngsters are calling things, today. Sigh!
K.P. and of course everyone tuned in here.
Barstow Rick,
As far as I know, the direct line from San Bernardino to Rana, bypassing the B Yard was always called the "Short Way" as a nickname only. In the 1980's and 1990's it was technically the ATSF South Track (Middle and North Track went the "Long Way" around). Later on in BNSF times, it was Main 4. This track was always governed by ATSF or BNSF dispatchers until about 2010.
The tower that Union Pacific crews blasted thru was the Tower (now long gone) right were the "Short Way" rejoined the other tracks at the west end of the present day San Berdoo passenger platforms. The previous posts says nothing about bombing thru a diamond, but instead thru crossovers.
When the Short Way was sold/transfered to Metrolink around 2010, it became there Short Way Subdivision. It is officially called that in the Timetable. One of those rare confirmations of a long used nickname.
As far as staffing of Colton Tower, the second railroad at any location is required to construct the Tower and install any interlocking equipment required and to man such tower. The idea being that the first railroad should have to incur any costs because the second railroad decided to cross it and not build a overpass or underpass.
BNSF6400 originally wrote: "" Years ago I use to visit a personal friend tower operator at West Yard Tower from time to time, and he use to run most UP’s the Short Way. When he did run eastbound UP’s the long way, by the tower, he ALWAYS crossed them over by the tower. That way they would get a yellow (the territory indication for crossing over) and not a green (even though everything “Two-Side” crossed over at Mt. Vernon), when Cajon Pass was all ABS. UP engineers in those days feared nothing, and with a green signal, used to pass the tower so fast that it would practically scare him to death! Oh, how times have changed!""
My misunderstanding, I quickly realized the error of my ways when I went back and re-read what you wrote. Now I have a better understanding. From the sounds of things we've both been around the San Berdnardino Railroad Arena for awhile.
I appreciate the come back and information shared.
Two-Tracking and the Glamis, CA Area
Very recently in another thread at this TRAINS forum website, the Mesquite trash train landfill site was featured, with some excellent photos by dhanson1961 of the facility’s new trackage in the Glamis, CA area, in the vicinity of M.P. 698 on the Sunset Route. That thread inspired K.P. to examine aerials of the area, and something other than that thread’s subject matter, something new and conspicuous, caught his eye: West of Glamis (in undated Google aerials) was about ten miles of new grading for a second main, and completed culvert-work for such too!
LINK: East End of Two-Track Grading Near Glamis, CA
The above link’s view of the grading can be moved either way, to the northwest or southeast just by mouse dragging the aerial view. The view can also be brought closer or farther away to include less or more of the area scene. The Glamis siding is on the lower right, and the switch to the Mesquite land fill site is towards the upper left, and the new grading is on the far upper left.
LINK: West End of the Grading
Interestingly, the below reshown July 12, 2011 photo from Highway 78 in Glamis of the west end of the Glamis SIDING has signals with upper and lower three-bulb heads, i.e., in preparation for a universal crossover.
It is unknown if the south side Glamis siding will remain or be done away with, or maybe become Main 2 in an alignment shift. The grading is on the north side of the present main. It is also unknown what the status of that Glamis area two-tracking is, i.e., on hold, pending, in process, etc.
That two-tracking effort has a big negative associated with it for us. Ted Kipf Rd. that relatively closely follows the Sunset Route in that area has this sign on it:
So, updating that two-tracking when it occurs is limited …
Anybody have a helicopter? (A cheap one, IF there is such a thing!)
----------
LINK: dhanson1961’s Glamis-Mesquite thread
Cutting in CP Sabino Part 1 of 6
Timing is everything some days... yesterday I passed by the CP Sabino site, and saw about 50 UP crew standing around, which meant only one thing -- something big was about to happen.
Heading up onto the Twin Peaks overpass, I was able to get a clear view of the jobsite...
Both the east facing crossover and transition tracks had been assembled & staged:
Those shots were taken about 0830. A few minutes later, the air-horn warning went off, and work stopped.
7 minutes later, the Sunset Limited came thru, not normally worth a photo, aside from the three BNSF business cars tacked onto the end...
A westbound container train and grain train came thru after #1, and then an eastbound sometime around 0900.
Cutting in CP Sabino Part 2 of 6
Up until now, the crews weren't doing a whole lot that could be seen, aside from a crew pulling out ties at the splice points and where a couple of interim marks (presumably cuts) had been made along the rail, and another trying to do something with one of the really long ties at the widest part of the turnout.
At 10am, the main was closed to traffic, and the crews went to work in earnest...
Starting at the east end, a welding crew started cutting the rail:
After they'd finished a pair of cuts, they'd pick up and move down to the next cut mark...
As soon as they were clear, another crew went to work pulling up track panels, and dragging them up on top of the new main that had been placed just weeks prior...
Cutting in CP Sabino Part 3 of 6
Once the track was clear, yet another crew started walking the bare roadbed, picking up spare tie places, spikes, and other metal that had come loose during the panel removal...
...while a crew from RJ Corman came thru with grader to strip the roadbed, followed by a water truck to keep the dust down...
As Corman was grading, UP came behind with a huge front end loader to pick up all the ballast that had been scraped aside by the grader...
.... and another crew started pulling the old track panels out and away, about 400 feet from the main site.
Cutting in CP Sabino Part 4 of 6
About 75 minutes into the closure, grading was complete, and crews started positioning the short rails that were underneath the turnout...
Up until this point, it wasn't really clear to me why they had the short rails, but then I looked a little closer with the viewfinder...
Now it made sense... the turnout couldn't be manhandled into position like panel track can -- it had to stay flat, and, well, steel wheels on rails to move large heavy objects seems pretty natural for a railroad, no?...
Cutting in CP Sabino Part 5 of 6
Almost at noon on the dot, it was time to slide the turnout into position... I switched to video...
5tu0yrNehEk
Waiting in the wings were a finishing crew:
With the panels in place, it was time to take some measurements...
Cutting in CP Sabino Part 6 of 6
Adjustments done, the last track panel is moved into place.... more video: watch?v=JnqleaqPG7c watch?v=sh6DR4qGWvE watch?v=EmKKf0c TPA
...and the final line-up...
At about 3:15 into the closure, the crew was finally putting in the joiner bars on the connector track and turnout
I wasn't able to stick around any longer at this point... One of the crew guys I'd spoken with earlier said the outage window was planned to close out around 90 minutes from the time I left, during which time the track was ballasted using the front end loaders, and quickly tamped to get the line back into service.
24 hours later, you wouldn't have known what happened the previous day, aside from the presence of a couple of workers and the bus...
As with other crossovers, this one will also have moveable point frogs:
I'm expecting that there will probably be another blitz when the west facing turnout is cut in, but without the overpass, it's going to be a lot less dramatic to watch.
WOW ! What a great post. It was almost like being there, thanks for spending the day watching and shooting.
John
I've never witnessed the actual cutting-in process, just the "before" and "after." Very instructive. An amazing post, especially the videos.
John Timm
Quite the site to see them using the flex track and move it in place. Kind of like what me modelers do I said tongue in cheek. It is awesome to watch the crews lay track, line it up and eventually tie it all together.
Notice the rails on the adjoining tracks is offset.
Alhambra Subdivision West Colton to Kaiser Update:
It has been sometime since I have given an update on this, mostly because nothing has been happening.
WEST COLTON
Last year (2012) Union Pacific replaced half the tracks in the Receiving Yard with new rail, new concrete ties and new yard ladder switches. Sometime in the past few weeks, Union Pacific has started work on replacing the remaining yard tracks in a similar manner.
ALHAMBRA SUB
Right around Christmas, the Union Pacific delivered welded rail between SIERRA and the East Switch SOUTH FONTANA on the south side, the same section that was graded during the Summer 2012. Nothing new has happened here yet. No grading on the north side has been done and as K.P. as stated in an earlier post, the widening-in-progress at Citrus Avenue MAY cause problems with installing a new main on the north side of the tracks here. No visible progess has been done west of SOUTH FONTANA all the way to the Milliken Flyover.
February and March are the rainiest months in this part of Southern California, so UP may be waiting for Spring weather to begin trackwork (of course weather didn't stop the West Colton project from starting, so who knows).
I will advise as conditions change.
According to the Trains News Wire (January 25, 2013), Union Pacific will complete "an additional 30 miles of double track" in 2013. Compared to what is needed in both Arizona and California to finish the project, this does not look very ambitious. Plus, if this figure already takes into account the final segment into Tucson that is nearing completion, then it would mean very little progress this year.
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