K. P. HarrierMore Replies mvs (5-3): The recollection is that you not too long ago reported the underpass construction at the Sunset Ave. grade crossing in Banning, CA area. I was by that way recently, but from the freeway it was inconclusive what was transpiring or the progress, if any.
mvs (5-3):
The recollection is that you not too long ago reported the underpass construction at the Sunset Ave. grade crossing in Banning, CA area. I was by that way recently, but from the freeway it was inconclusive what was transpiring or the progress, if any.
Interestingly enough, the last time I was out there, was 5 or 6 years ago by train.
Sad to hear about the construction fatality on the 91 freeway. My thoughts are with the worker's family and those present.
Another Quick Update
Is the Shoofly the Future Main?
The Vineyard Ave. Underpass Construction
Ontario, CA
As with the surprise outing Friday, K.P. was again out and about the afternoon of Saturday, May 17, 2014, this time in Ontario, CA, but this one had been scheduled for a few weeks.
How can a “shoofly” actually be the permanent track?
Presently, at the Vineyard Ave. underpass construction a shoofly is in the process of being constructed. But, the shoofly is a very high one!
The present “Main” is supposed to be four feet higher after the underpass is constructed. But, will that “Main” end up the future “Main 2” and the present shoofly become “Main 1”?
On the above date, K.P. was able to prowl around on the SOUTH side, by the Sunset Route track, and got some photo views he previously though not to be possible.
So, not only is a more thorough report on the truss bridges area in Grand Terrace in the works, but now a report on the activities in Ontario is pending too, including something new at CP C038 ONTARIO on the LA&SL.
A Reply
BNSF6400 (5-17):
Thanks for the clarification. A super big expense for the railroad no matter how one divides it up, and when!
In an Internet search, the below link is probably the Clinton, IA bridge you spoke of on the Central Corridor, with several views if one scrolls down through the photos.
LINK: http://www.johnweeks.com/river_mississippi/pagesB/umissBR11.html
I don’t think the Sunset Route has very many of those giant edifices. The one that comes to mind, though, is the Huey P. Long Bridge in the New Orleans, LA area, technically Jefferson Parish, LA, that apparently a multiplicity of railroads use. That one is sufficiently high enough to allow boat traffic underneath it. That 1935 Huey P. Long Bridge is “two-tracks” wide, though far away from the general “two-tracking” theme territory of this thread.
LINK: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1223388
LINK: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1857857
LINK: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2010320
LINK: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1889982
LINK: Aerial View
desertdog …
Hey John, you are well traveled …Is there any big bridges (as in the above post reply) on the Sunset Route in Texas, the next state west of Louisiana? I’m pretty sure New Mexico, Arizona, and California don’t have such, outside of over the Rio Grande River in the El Paso, TX area, around Cienega Creek, AZ, and the smaller bridge between California and Arizona in Yuma, AZ.
And, technically John is the Huey P. Long Bridge actually on the Sunset Route, or on a branching off track?
Take care,
K.P.
PS: Anybody that has answers is welcome to respond.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
BNSF6400CORRECTED POST: The proposed replacement of the Union Pacific's Mississippi River Bridge at Clinton, Iowa is projected at $66 million for Phase I (yard and crew change relocation and other preparation work) while Phase II is proposed at about $400 million. The cost is so high because the bridge proposed would be a high level "fixed" span instead of a low level drawbridge span like it is now. Having a bridge high enough to clear shipping on the river is much more costly than having new drawbridge, but the benefits to the railroad (50% more capacity), the river traffic and also to motorists that no longer will have to wait for a stopped train waiting for river traffic makes this a very worthwhile project. Union Pacific has already chipped in half ($33 million) and is looking for public funds (Iowa DOT, Illinois DOT and federal) to cover the rest of Phase I. No commitment of funds to Phase II as yet occurred.
We heard they approached the Iowa DOT and talked about a joint rail-highway bridge, but IaDOT wasn't interested. They applied for the same Federal program that the BNSF used to help pay for their Burlington IA bridge. Feds turned the UP down, too. Not that they can't approach any of the entities in the future and get help.
It's been quite a while since anything has been really said about the project, but there was talk sometime back that they had given up on the idea of going over the river high enough on a fixed bridge and were thinking along the lines of a lift bridge like the BNSF put in Burlington.
It looks like something is going to happen on the Blair Subdiv, even though the word is that nothing beyond normal maintenance is supposed to be done until coal traffic picks back up. There's a prefab switch, with wood ties on a line that is all concrete ties in that area, laying along the tracks at a place where the line will eventually be straightened out. I'm guessing either for a temporary spur or maybe a shoo-fly while they do some realignment?
That's the thing, sometimes they say one thing and then do the opposite. Or when they say they are going to do something, it just takes longer to come to pass than originally thought. You just have to wait and see what actually happens.
Jeff
Quick Update as of Friday, May 16, 2014
The New Truss Bridges and the Area
Grand Terrace-Colton, CA
Quick Post No. 2 (of 1-2)
Iowa Ave. south of the I-215 Freeway (by the new truss spans) NO longer curves, but has become a “T” intersection.
Before: Note the old, curving roadway on the right.
After (now):
As more time becomes available, the hope is more photos can be posted so the forum will have a broader perspective of the current developments and happenings.
Replies
rdamon (5-15):
The link you provided would not work within the trainsmag.com website, at least for me, but if put away from the trainsmag.com in a separate browser session, does work. Widening the view, the buildings seen on the lower left of the view are no long there and cleared away. I suspect the east-west Airport Dr. will be moved southward as has been done at Archibald and Haven Avenues to the east.
billio (5-16):
Wow! $400-$500 million for a new bridge in Iowa on the Central Corridor! The whole new Santa Teresa facility in New Mexico on the southern Sunset Route cost about that same amount. That must be some bridge!
Best,
Quick Post No. 1 (of 1-2)
Unexpected developments for K.P. necessitated that he travel south to deep within Riverside County, and on the way about an hour was devoted to photographing current happenings about the new BNSF truss bridges (alternated Sunset Route) in the Grand Terrace-Colton area.
The future Main 3 north (east) approach was heavily ballasted, though the rails were not connected to the present mainlines.
The south approach has not been laid yet.
Another truss bridge span was started, and its bottom paralleling I-beams were seen.
Continued in Quick Post No. 2
K. P. Harrier More Replies: ...[snip]... billio (5-2): Reading various materials, one wonders how UP can keep so many projects going at the same time. Years ago a big project was big news, and far between. I guess that all changed with the mega-mergers. KP, that list, I believe, is a combination of what capital improvements for capacity expansion UP plans to undertake this year plus some things they'd do if there were more money but most likely will get deferred for a year or two. This confers an element of pie-in-the-sky to the list. The new bridge over the Mississippi River at Clinton, Iowa, the price of which I vaguely recall hearing was estimated in the $400-500 million range, is a good example of the latter. Just posted today is that UP's directors voted an additional $150 million in capacity improvements in "the Northern Region" (which stretches from Seattle to Chicago), so who knows where or what they have in mind. Maybe resuming double tracking the Blair Sub? Anyway, that list is a very good way of learning where UP management wants to add to the capacity of their network.
More Replies:
...[snip]...
billio (5-2):
Reading various materials, one wonders how UP can keep so many projects going at the same time. Years ago a big project was big news, and far between. I guess that all changed with the mega-mergers.
KP, that list, I believe, is a combination of what capital improvements for capacity expansion UP plans to undertake this year plus some things they'd do if there were more money but most likely will get deferred for a year or two. This confers an element of pie-in-the-sky to the list. The new bridge over the Mississippi River at Clinton, Iowa, the price of which I vaguely recall hearing was estimated in the $400-500 million range, is a good example of the latter. Just posted today is that UP's directors voted an additional $150 million in capacity improvements in "the Northern Region" (which stretches from Seattle to Chicago), so who knows where or what they have in mind. Maybe resuming double tracking the Blair Sub?
Anyway, that list is a very good way of learning where UP management wants to add to the capacity of their network.
More Replies
Super Hunky (5-6):
The only place that I know of that has grading complete, except at the present two-tracking activity, is WEST of Glamis, CA for about 10 miles. Laying track in that area may (“may”) be next. But, because the signals were revamped between Salton (across from Salton Sea) and west to just Mecca (but no more west than that) …
By Cleveland Street, M.P. 630.88
… my gut feeling is that that will be two-tracked next. That will be a wonderful place to see two-tracked, for there is a short stretch with hills and cuts galore!
If anything is two-tracked in Arizona, my gut tells me it will be in the Sentinel-Stanwix area, maybe 5 miles on each side of the present, first to be two tracked years ago stretch in Arizona. But, that is only an opinion …
billio (5-14)
Puttering around is about it at Montclair (CA).
Deggesty (5-14):
The BNSF signals in the Cajon Pass area drop relatedly fast. Any delays are not like the extremes of UP.
jeffhergert (5-14):
The mainline tracks by Salton Sea used to be 70 M.P.H., but are now 65 M.P.H. It is unknown when the downgrade took place, but I don’t think it was very recently.
The next time I’m out by Salton Sea I hope to visit the place early in the morning, so will have time to study the signal sequencing with those green over dark vs. yellow over greens.
By Salton Sea I did see TWO yellow over green signals in a row, but the impression was that a train was somewhere ahead, so the sequencing may not have been what one would expect.
There is enough trains though that area that the signals will undoubtedly cooperate, and a definitive report made.
Super Hunky (5-15):
A miniature chopper with a video camera on it would be really fun! But, knowing my luck, there would soon be a bunch of “miniature” fighter jets circling the chopper …
Take care all,
billio (4-13):
It is good to know trains won’t have to deal with the Ina Rd. and Ruthrauff Rd. grade crossing in the next five years or so. From a railfan’s standpoint, less places will be available to photograph from, but I’ve stood at those grade crossings when a train comes by, and the backup is horrendous!
Victorville, CA got caught with insufficient bridges, and traffic was a nightmare for years. Only recently have new overpasses been opened up and things are greatly improving. Hesperia, CA recently got a new underpass on the BNSF Transcon, at Ranchero Rd.
That Ranchero Rd. extends west several miles to the I-15 Freeway, and a new overpass was (“was”) being built there, but disaster struck and the bridge over the freeway was destroyed by fire. That reportedly will cost someone $6 million. The abutments, etc., can be salvaged.
Overpasses are a boon to communities, but they dry up photo taking locations. But, at least train crews will be more at ease in traversing the new two-tracking of the Sunset Route at such grade crossing-less locations.
eolesen (4-15):
None of the link addresses (of ADOT) would work for me. When I have some time I wouldn’t mind prowling around the ADOT website to try to resolved those ‘contradictions.’
But, your post gave sufficient information that I think most at the forum got a better picture of future overpasses in the Tucson area. It helped me! Thanks …
Super Hunky (4-16):
You asked if my computer had a virus. I honestly don’t know, but the probable ultimately was a hard drive failure. But, with a new hard drive, things seem to be running relatively smoothly.
I am note too concerned about viruses now, as Deep Freeze won’t let anything on my computer when it is ‘frozen,’ which it always is.
blue streak 1 (4-16):
The Operating System for the computer is Windows 7.
My computer science degree son condemns Windows 8, and says to wait for Windows 9.
The latest version of Windows 8, which is 8.1, supposedly solved a major user friendly flaw.
But, since my Windows 7 is back running again, I’ve got time on my side waiting for Windows 9, if that is what it will be called. I hear the bigwig that came up with Windows 8 got canned, which says something …
cacole (4-16):
Thanks for your input about Avast Internet Security. Since the government uses it, it must be good. In my case, I think Deep Freeze is sufficient, at least at this time. But, because few share any input at the forum, such as replying about using Avast, you may never know what great help you have been by your recommendation.
Deep Freeze got a big following with public schools, so the average person, such as you, may not have heard of it. But, it works! And, that is all I care about …It may have certain cumbersome quirks, but they are very tolerable because they keep cumbersome computer botch-ups out of my world. Now, if the manufactures could just make a computer that won’t drop dead after 3 years, but last for 10, that would be something! Of course, Windows 7 then will be like a GP-9 is today!
Super Hunky (4-17):
The news clipping sure highlights government’s ineptness with its ‘here and now’ thinking. But, who is OBLIGATED to see visions of the future? Interesting situation!
MikeF90 (4-22):
Things about that PHIMF and Mesquite landfill both together seem contradictory when I read clips on them. I don’t know what to believe. And, I question whether anybody does. Maybe (“maybe”) there are too many government officials going in all different directions on this one, and when that happens, usually there is a big political explosion (not literally) and a bunch of officials get burned big time.
What road takes one up in the hills to get a good down on photo of the new multiple-track laying at the trashing loading facility itself?
blue streak 1 (4-29):
Storing that old bridge that is now over the I-215 Freeway in the Grand Terrace-Colton (CA) area is an interesting concept. But, I think it was custom installed, with angled supports making it unlikely it could be pressed into service somewhere else at a moment’s notice.
I don’t know where used bridges go. But, I’m pretty sure, though, that there is no bridge heaven …
usmc1401 (4-30):
If there is a bridge heaven, the Orange Empire Railway Museum may be it!
Seriously, let me know if you hear anything further on this. Man, can you imagine what it would cost just to get such a bridge over to the Perris museum site? Permits and local officials all coordinated! Wow! What an undertaking!
Replies continued …
Replies (Now that K.P.’s Computer is fixed …)
billio (4-8):
Your point #2 … You wrote: “After Vineyard Avenue near the Ontario Airport gets grade-separated, another bout of double tracking is likely to begin along that stretch.” There is another possible element of time to consider in “after,” and that is that “after” may not be “after.” Very recently, the Streeter Ave. underpass construction in Riverside (CA) progressed to the point the shoofly was eliminated and the partially completed underpass bridging was ready for trains.
I would suggest that in only four to nine more months a similar situation will exist at Vineyard Ave. in Ontario, and UP will lay track up and over the bridging (the mainline is supposed to rise four feet), and trains return to the original straight alignment. Then, the rest of the underpass could be finished in leisure, so to speak.
They then could grade and lay the second track to Guasti, and install the mystery box that is currently at the Colton Signal Department …
… in the area of the present CP AL525 GUASTI.
Since that new CP box at Colton undoubtedly is connected with the Vineyard Ave. underpass, it could be transferred to Ontario sometime BEFORE the Vineyard Ave. underpass is completed, but after trains are using the underpass bridging. That would strongly suggest the Main 1 Flyover at Milliken Ave. will have track laid on it probably within six month! That obviously is unofficial, but sounds logical to me.
narig01 (4-9):
That news article about the Santa Teresa facility talked about the wear and tear on the roadways there. That article scares me about visiting the area, for the last thing I need is have my car rocked to pieces with potholes and bad roads, if you know what I mean … In previous trips the dirt road was excellent. But, now that mass amounts of trucks are converging on the area, I don’t know how I should envisions things …
cacole (4-9):
Thanks for posting the photos of the old El Paso and Southwest right-of-way.
Why do I have visions of the EP&SW being relayed in the next twenty years all the way to El Paso, and UP trains with red and green GE power traversing those rails? (Never say “never”!)
SP657E44 (4-10):
I guess the computer problem delaying a reply to you allowed developments to surface to halfway answer your inquiry.
The question now is if three or four truss bridges will be put in.
In the last week or two the roadways seem to be being realigned. As someone that has known those roadways for over fifty years, since childhood, it is almost like finding out California slid off into the Pacific Ocean!
doghouse (4-10):
Thanks for your El Paso, TX Rio Grande River area track numbers input, and track background.
MikeF90 (4-11):
About the new derails on the old branch track across the LA&SL at CP C038 ONTARIO … Maybe they were put in because the diamond tracks are kind of blind, and a train has no visual idea if a cross-track train might be in the area.
One factor that might be influencing matters was the, I think, 2004 LA&SL runaway out of the old Montclair Yard that ran all the way down to the Commerce area, where it was deliberately derailed so it wouldn’t head-on a Metrolink train. The very striking proliferation of new derails now springing up in Ontario might (“might”) have been influenced by the National Transportation Safety Board’s (NTSB’s) order that UP install such derails because of that wreck. Or, maybe UP has seen the value of such derails in light of the very much thinning of its labor force in recent times.
Maybe someone within UP might want to comment further on this, if they know anything.
blue streak (4-11):
How has the signal dept. kept up, especially in light of facilities as Santa Teresa?
Good question. I wonder how extensive diagramming is. Is it generic with limited diagramming, or is each wire shown?
I’ve seen official track diagrams, but no electrical ones.
Replies continued
Have they secured access from the south side via Airport Ave.?
Looking at the map .. looks like there is a nice parking lot for the old terminal at ONT airport.
http://goo.gl/maps/tySFj
KP You need one of those small remote control helicopters with a camera on it. Then you could get the shots you need. Or get arrested ....
A Cool Thursday Outing
Update as of May 8, 2014
Colton-Riverside-Ontario, CA
Part “Q” (of P-Q, Overall A-Q)
What you see by the Vineyard Ave. grade crossing is about the only place one can get near the tracks now. Fencing blocks the area just about everywhere.
A piece of construction equipment near the tracks just east of Vineyard Ave.:
The ‘closed’ Vineyard Ave.:
And everything close to the tracks is closed now too!
It is increasingly becoming virtually impossible to document the scene. Maybe a stroke of genius with strike K.P., and he will come up with an innovative and ingenious way of getting photos, but he is not counting on it.
The second main, when it does come, looks to be laid SOUTH of the present main. As with the Streeter Ave. underpass in Riverside that trains operate over the bridging now even though the underpass still needs to be dug out, that may be the scenario here at Vineyard Ave. Maybe in six to nine months trains will be traversing bridging here too.
K.P. was by the Colton Signal Dept. in Colton too, and the new box for CP AL525 GUASTI is still sitting in the fenced area. Likely that box has something to do with the Vineyard Ave. underpass, like in financial wizardry on UP’s part. Once the Vineyard Ave. underpass is sufficient ready for train to pass over it, the second-track could be laid to Guasti, with the Main 2 Milliken Ave. Flyover regulated to switching, and the Main 1 Flyover the main, until CP AL525 GUASTI to CP 532 SIERRA is two-tracked. That may or may not be how things will work out, but K.P. somehow envisions something brewing second track-wise by Vineyard Ave. within a year …
This will conclude the series.
Part “P” (of P-Q, Overall A-Q)
Once K.P.’s dispatched assignment was all taken care of, he checked out a few important Ontario spots. The west switch of LA&SL’s CP C038 ONTARIO had workers and vehicles on site. It looked as if they were calling it a day.
It is unknown what activity they were finishing off.
Afterward, K.P. passed over the Mountain Ave. overpass a couple of times, but nothing stood out that was reportable.
Then, the Vineyard Ave. underpass construction site was checked out, on the actual Sunset Route. The shoofly was in the process of being laid.
Continued in Part Q
Wonderful series, KP. Thank you for your efforts.
If they are set up like ours, and I think they would be, the first signal will not display a green over dark if lined for a crossover move. The two advance signals (in most cases) are to slow a train from 70 mph to 50 mph for the crossover move
When lined for a crossover move and not following another movement, the first usually displays a yellow over flashing green. The second signal will display a yellow over green. (There are a few that have the first signal always display A yellow over green, giving two Approach Clear 50 indications before the crossover. The ones that come to mind are where maximum speed is already less than 70 mph but more than 50 mph.)
You are correct that if the first signal is displaying a Y/G, there is probably another train a few blocks ahead. If the first signal is Y/G, the second one would be a flashing yellow over dark, the signal at the x-over a red over yellow. Of course if the train ahead is moving, all signals would upgrade accordingly as the preceding train cleared the blocks.
"The westbound comes, and passes the green signal, but in UP fashion remains green for quite a while before being knocked down to red.
As I recall, I have never seen signals knocked down immediately after the engine passes them--or, when watching from the rear on single track, clear immediately (I did not think I should use the opposite of "knock down") for the opposite direction after the last car passes them. Is this not an all-road practice?
Johnny
Thanks for the updates, KP. Nice series.
Has UP done anything lately to the yard at Montclair, where they've been puttering around for the last couple of years?
A Niland-Salton Sea, CA Update Report
Part XXVIII (of XVIII-XXVII, Overall I-XXVIII)
As we head west, just east of the high bridge in the Ferrum area (photo previously shown) …
… the signals above (upper right), on this trip a train approached coming TOWARDS the camera. The left signal above (facing the other way) WAS green over dark even though it had a lower head, for yellow over green or yellow over flashing green.
Kevin Gray in his fine Sunset Route Amtrak posting series (with photos) over a month ago …
Kevin Gray photo, on Amtrak #2 by Marsh Station Rd. in the Cienega Creek area of Arizona
… mentioned seeing a yellow over flashing green in advance of crossing over for his Amtrak train.
K.P. personally saw an eastbound get a yellow over green back east beyond Hot Mineral Spa Rd. So, WHY the difference? Since both green and yellow over green were observed, what is the logic in such different displays?
Conjecturing now, with a measure of convinced logic, when a train TWO signals in advance of crossing over, the signal will display green WHEN nothing is ahead of it. However, IF a train follows a train that is several blocks ahead, the electrical logic system dictates the signal display, NOT green, but yellow over green (or yellow over flashing green). Make sense?
The Main 1 signal in advance of CP SP637 SALTON was yellow over green.
It was getting dark, but a final shot was too irresistible -- a green signal on single-track
The above signal is a relatively new one, replacing target signals. As was done elsewhere, likely in a few years this section will be two-tracked
So, there we have it. We all now know what has and will be happening in the Niland-Salton Sea area of the Sunset Route.
Part XXVII (of XVIII-XXVII, Overall I-XXVIII)
The two short sections of track look like they will replace wood tied track.
In the photo just above, note how the side section of track matches the wood tied Main 2 section just to the right.
A short (“short”) westbound with DPU’s come and goes.
Continued in Part XXVIII
Part XXVI (of XVIII-XXVII, Overall I-XXVIII)
The west side eastbound Main 1 mast signal: Unlike in the past where all eastbound trains received a red over crossover signal, this signal can finally display high green now that both main tracks are in service.
The west crossover’s rails are shiny now.
As K.P. recalls, these side sections of track have been present for a while, the east, and then the west:
Continued in Part XXVII
Part XXV (of XVIII-XXVII, Overall I-XXVIII)
We now arrive at CP SP648 BERTRAM (M.P. 648.2). View looks west from the east end. The left background cantilever signal is for the Bertram siding and Main 2. Main 1’s mast signal is the background right signal, just right of the foreground right mast.
The east end’s westbound mast signals. The last time K.P. was here, what is now Main 1 (right signal) was not in service yet.
Those signals as view from Range Rd., looking east:
The lowering sunlight (above) puts a little drama to the scene.
Continued in Part XXVI
Part XXIV (of XVIII-XXVII, Overall I-XXVIII)
The next intermediates to the west, along Highway 111, are in a wide open, spacious setting, very near the seashore.
With NO train coming, the above Main 1 signal (right) was lit flashing yellow.
Alone Highway 111 still, this time by Bombay Beach: These signals have lower single bulb heads too.
Continued in Part XXV
Part XXIII (of XVIII-XXVII, Overall I-XXVIII)
Looking west:
The crossing gates control box at Hot Mineral Spa Rd.
Continued in Part XXIV
Part XXII (of XVIII-XXVII, Overall I-XXVIII)
Now at Hot Mineral Spa Road (M.P. 652.90), looking east, at the intermediate signals just discussed in Part XXII.
Continued in Part XXIII
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