Is This Radically Bizarre or What?
A Very Odd Development in Arizona
A Postscript
An odd situation to kick around involves the Marne-Industry-New Siding area, again on the Sunset Route in Southern California. Conceptually, it may (“may”) have an application to Arizona.
Technically, while having the appearance of two-tracks, the area is presently timetable listed as a Main and sidings (plural, back to back).
The east portion, with diagram continuation on the right:
The West portion, as a continuation from the left:
Some reshown photos of the above to ponder:
An east view of east westbound signal at CP AL504 MARNE: Lower head to go into the Marne siding only has red and yellow bulbs, NO green.
On the other hand, to do that the other way at the WEST end of the Marne siding, at CP AL503 INDUSTRY (left signal), the lower head has THREE bulbs, including a green to go into and OUT of the Marne siding! (How many SIDINGS have you ever seen with a lower head green to go into and out of them?)
On the far western end of that three sidings arrangement that only looks like two-tracks, an eastward view of CP AL500 NEW SIDING. The lower head only has a two-bulb unit.
This all seems somewhat inconsistent, though it obviously conforms to UP’s standards. But, what is actually in the Picacho area of Arizona? What about the new 30 M.P.H. crossover and cantilevered signals at CP SP985 CHERRY AVE in Tucson?
There should be more information and photos forthcoming after K.P.’s upcoming visit to Arizona, New Mexico, and El Paso, TX, which trip should take place sometime within two months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
A Sunday Wrap-Up Photo Project
On Sunday, September 30, 2012, a whole lot of ground was covered. The following areas were checked out, and postings about them will be posted on the follow schedule:
Wednesday, October 3, 2012 late evening: The Colton Flyover
Track workers and signalmen were a plenty in Colton, CA. How about that forward moving wheel OFF the ground on the lower left of the above photo of a UP truck and flat trailer!
Monday, October 8, 2012 mid-morning: The 91 Freeway widening now in process in the Pachappa area of Riverside and its repercussions to the railroad bridge over the freeway, and in Ontario an update on the Milliken Ave. Flyover.
Thursday, October 11, 2012 mid-morning: The Colton Santa Ana River Trail parking area, the future Highgrove overpass site, Riverside’s Riverside Ave. and Streeter Ave. future underpasses.
Railroads can and often do reduce speed thru turnouts for various reasons. The maximum speed thru a turnout is a function of how long the distance is from the points to the frog. They usually have a No. associated with a particular length, like a No. 20 turnout. Generally speaking the speed thru the turnout is twice or slightly higher than the number, so a No. 20 is usually good for 40 MPH.
Example: Just west of the Needles, CA depot on the BNSF Transcon's Needles Sub is a control point with two crossovers connecting three tracks...the turnouts dropped in maximum speed from 40 to 30 and then finally 20 MPH without ATSF or BNSF ever replacing them...so I would assume the WEST PICACHO switches are the same as installed just reduced on paper.
BNSF6400
P.S. Nothing new on the Alhamba Sub between Fontana and Kaiser Yard has occurred since grading was completed on the south side and half the Receiving Yard at West Colton being replaced. The Citrus Avenue overpass widening project is in full gear while Cherry Ave has had no work started except for some utility rerouting.
Replies:
jeffhergert (9-29):
Suddenly turnout speeds are a topic of controversy. Those in the know, such as you, Jeff, are saying contradictory things that have left me rather perplexed.
As an example, CP S1035 FENNER in Benson, AZ.:
I think, from your post, the crossovers there are 30 M.P.H. Others with your stature say they are 20 M.P.H.
So, I am not sure what to believe.
To whom it may concern (10-1):
I got your email memo via this website, but am having trouble responding, as I do occasionally.
Please contact me directly at kpharrier@yahoo.com.
Thanks.
BNSF6400 (10-2):
Excellent and informative information was in your last post!
When I get out to Picacho, AZ, hopefully soon, the single crossover at CP SP938 EAST PICACHO is within eyesight of a public grade crossing. I’ll report to the forum of my findings, and if the possibility you mention is there or not.
Hey, BNSF6400 … Since the Fontana area is your area of forum reporting, I’ll share with you a surprise tidbit about the Milliken Ave. Flyover just down the way from you …
The center pier-work is already being put in for the future Main 1 flyover! That was unbelievably quick!
Best,
K.P.
A little more on the turnout sizing. I believe that the size referrs to the number of track gauge (4' 8 1/2") there are between the frog and points. For example the distance for a # 20 turnout would be 20 x 56.5 inches or 94' 2". The larger the turnout number the more gentler the turn would be and a higher speed is possible. Hope this is correct. Got this info from playing with my LGB train set. I do not have any info on the speed being a multiple of the turnout number.
September 30, 2012
Part I (of I-VIII, Overall I-XXII)
The Colton Flyover
Colton, CA
Previously, the EAST side of Rancho Ave., in the CP SP538 RANCHO area, was highlighted. When first arriving for this report, K.P. immediately saw a surprise WEST of Rancho Ave. The new replacement CP was having the SOUTH, Main 2, switch of the EAST crossover between the two mains being installed! It is visible from Rancho Ave. WHILE IN A CAR traveling southbound, but NOT by pedestrians on the east side only sidewalk. So, only limited value, ground level views will have to suffice.
The previously shown August 8, 2012 photo below partially shows the area where the new switch was being installed at, the counterpart to the switch on the lower right of center.
Continued in Part II
Part II (of I-VIII, Overall I-XXII)
Looking eastward from up on the overpass, the Colton Flyover construction work is now right up to Rancho Ave. Note the I-beams in the ground on the left.
A few from the Rancho Ave. overpass side views, looking north:
Continued in Part III
Part III (of I-VIII, Overall I-XXII)
From the southern 3rd Street, looking west towards the machinery and I-beams (upper right) that are by Rancho Ave.:
From that south side 3rd Street cul-de-sac, the flyover’s south walling is seen in its early stages.
Crew trucks and equipment were constantly roving around. Because of the angle between the road and the alleyway, note that trailer’s forward (visible) of two axil’s wheels were off the ground!
Continued in Part IV
Part IV (of I-VIII, Overall I-XXII)
A view from up on the Rancho Ave. overpass again, looking east.
A Metrolink commuter train crosses the diamonds westbound, rightward. Note the high reflectivity of the flyover’s poured concrete (upper left).
Continued in Part V
Part V (of I-VIII, Overall I-XXII)
From atop a “K” Street hill, looking northeastward at Colton Crossing’s UP west side eastbound signals
The early side walling is seen between the BNSF (dark lower rails) and La Cadena Dr. (overpass opening on right).
A gem of a view for comprehending the area: The low, early walling on the left, the high walling in the center, and the southeast quadrant’s transition track (across the bottom) to and from Riverside via the BNSF for access to the LA&SL.
Continued in Part VI
Part VI (of I-VIII, Overall I-XXII)
There was nothing unusual to report at the Colton Signal Dept. EXCEPT …
… in the background (above), behind the main offices, was what appeared to be a horizontal part of a cantilever signal bridge. Possibly it is destined to be attached to the vertical section at CP SP542 LOMA LINDA . (Photo is reshown.)
Also at the Colton Signal Dept., and it has been there for a while now, is the Streeter Ave. grade crossing box for the detour electronics for a grade separation to be built at Streeter Ave. in Riverside. (First photo above in this post.) More later in this series.
The secure and highly barbed wire fenced part of the Colton Signal Dept. is seen in this flyover view. Is the barbed wire to protect some gold plated color light signals? (Yah, right!)
Continued in Part VII
Part VII (of I-VIII, Overall I-XXII)
At the east steps (closed at the top) of the La Cadena Ave. underpass an eastward view of the flyover could be seen.
In that location, there were also flyover side slabs lying down.
From the top of those steps, the backside of the Colton Signal Dept. could be seen, with the cantilever horizontal section.
In being higher than the bungalows, those cantilever parts are humungous while on the ground!
K.P. could not tell if the width is sufficient or not for the theorized three-track Loma Linda location. Another possibility is on the blind curve between Pepper Ave. and Rancho Ave. It shouldn’t take too much longer for the cantilever part to be moved to some site, hopefully in the local area.
Continued in Part VIII
K. P. HarrierThe secure and highly barbed wire fenced part of the Colton Signal Dept. is seen in this flyover view. Is the barbed wire to protect some gold plated color light signals? (Yah, right!)
How about to ease the job of coppers trying to protect all of the copper in wires?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Part VIII (of I-VIII, Overall I-XXII)
A north of the tracks 9th Street eastward view by the I-10 eastbound onramp: Note the shiny, bright material right of center.
It is a stack of an unknown something reflecting the sun.
Finally, back by the Colton Signal Dept., the walling between the BNSF Transcon and La Cadena Dr. is more pronounced now, though still low.
The above low side walling is the same as seen from a roadway hill in the middle photo of Part V.
-------------
To be continued with the following schedule:
Late Monday, October 8, 2012: The 91 Freeway widening now in process in the Pachappa area of Riverside and its repercussions to the railroad bridge over the freeway, and in Ontario an update on the Milliken Ave. Flyover.
Late Thursday, October 11, 2012: The Colton Santa Ana River Trail parking area, the future Highgrove overpass site, A Triple-Track Grade Crossing with an Old Signal Bridge, Riverside’s Riverside Ave. and Streeter Ave. future underpass sities..
ccltrainsA little more on the turnout sizing. I believe that the size referrs to the number of track gauge (4' 8 1/2") there are between the frog and points. For example the distance for a # 20 turnout would be 20 x 56.5 inches or 94' 2". The larger the turnout number the more gentler the turn would be and a higher speed is possible. Hope this is correct. Got this info from playing with my LGB train set. I do not have any info on the speed being a multiple of the turnout number.
The correct definition of the frog number is the ratio of the distance down the center of the frog (midway between the two routes) to the distance between the inside of the rails on the respective tracks (so you're measuring over both rails). Thus, if you're 20 feet away from the point of the frog when the flange sides of the rails are one foot apart, that's a No. 20 switch.I heard that twice-the-frog-number rule for the speed on the switch from a Chessie System engineering guy 'way back, suggesting that a No. 20 switch should be rated for 40 m.p.h. And, true to form, the No. 20s on the C&NW main line were good for a 40-m.p.h. timetable crossover speed when things were maintained.However, the lie to the distance-between-frog-and-points rule has come more recently with (help, please, MC!) a different spiral on the curve. The new crossovers on the UP in Lombard also have No. 20 frogs, but are good for 50 on the diverging route.
Carl, while I defer to MC (and others) on all thing MOW wise, I think the new 50 mph use a #24 switch. At least that's what I've been told out this way.
K.P., my default speed for the dual control turnouts not connected to sidings being 30 mph comes from the System Special Instructions. If the time table doesn't list a specific speed and assuming they are dual control (I can't imagine they wouldn't be, but you never know.) the speed should be the default speed. Now, there could be some other instructions out there that could override both the SSI and time table.
I've been doing some studying on the subject (rules, SSI, etc) the last few days. I had my biannual rules testing sessions yesterday and today (10/02 and 10/03). Just in case you are wondering; 100% on the Hazmat, 100% on the Air Brake/Train Handling, but only a 98% on the GCOR.
Jeff
Congrats, Jeff! I used to get scores like that, but not so much toward the end of my career (all that new stuff, which may be original to you!). But I was always the first one done.I was just going on what I was told when they were installing the switches. The guy said they were 20s, and good for 50. They only use one machine, if that's any indication.
I WAS AT COLTON CROSSOVER YESTERDAY FOR 90 MIN ON THE GROUND. NO WORK BEING DOWN ON ANY OF THE COLUMNS OR MAIN WALLS FOR THE CROSSOVER ARCHES. THERE WAS
SOME WORK FILLING THE AREA BETWEEN THE RETAINING WALL ON THE EAST SIDE RAMP LEADING TO THE CROSSOVER. GOT SOME GOOD PICS FROM LOCAL STREET IN SOUTHWEST CORNER AND THE STREET WITH THE INDUSTRIAL TRACK DOWN THE MIDDLE AND ITS Y ONTO THE UP SIDING EAST OF THE DIAMONDS. SAND TRAIN CAME JUST AS I WAS LEAVING. SAW SAME TRAIN AT SAND PLANT IN PALM SPRINGS AREA. HAVE BEEN ON RT 66 TRIP SINCE SEPT 04 . TODAY FOLLOWED SUNSET ROUTE FROM COLTON TO NILAND WITH PICTURES/VIDEO OF STATUS OF TRACK AT WAYPOINTS ALONG THE WAY FROM INDIO TO NILAND. ABOUT 24 GB OF PICS/VIDEO. NOW ALL I NEED IS TO GET ENOUGH TIME TO LOOK AT AND ORGANIZE IT WHEN I GET HOME OCT 30TH.
That's new to me Carl. All of our 50 mph and most recent 40 mph switches have two machines. One for the switch and one for the frog. We even have a 30 mph turnout that was replaced a few years back that I think has a frog machine. I thought maybe they'ld put in one good for 40 mph, but they never raised the speed once it was in.
Part IX (of IX-XIII, Overall I-XXII)
The Site of the 91 Freeway Widening New Railroad Bridge
Riverside, CA
In Riverside, the LA&SL goes less than two blocks before going over the 91 Freeway. Since the 91 Freeway is currently being widened, a new railroad bridge is needed. It is in the early construction stages.
Preliminary grading work appears the new bridge will be on the south side (left).
Continued in Part X
Part X (of IX-XIII, Overall I-XXII)
Any railfan apartment dwellers here sure get a good view of the tracks and mainline activity. They even get a glimpse of BNSF’s Transcion!
The whole southwest side has gotten graded.
A closer southwest side view
Continued in Part XI
Part XI (of IX-XIII, Overall I-XXII)
Backing off a bit with the telephoto, one finds more to see than one first realizes is involved with this project.
A wide angle from Panorama Rd.:
This bridge seems to be a favorite of local apartment dwellers for getting to the other side of the freeway.
It appears the new bridge is believed will be built to the south or right of the present structure, on the original alignment of the line dating back to 1904 and 1905 when the LA&SL was first laid. The present bridge dates from the late 1950’s / earlier 1960’s when the 91 Freeway was put in.
Continued in Part XII
Part XII (of IX-XIII, Overall I-XXII)
The Milliken Ave. Flyover
Ontario, CA
Looking east from Milliken Ave, the future Main 1 flyover in the distance is coming along quickly.
The Milliken Ave. future Main 1 center pillars have already been erected and concrete poured.
Looking west now, a whole different construction sequencing is going forward.
Continued in Part XIII
Part XIII (of I-VIII, Overall I-XXII)
The west end is moving along at a different pace than the east end.
Another westward view: There is plenty of equipment on the north side. Doesn’t that small yellow piece of equipment just right of center give you the urged to take it for a ride?
The south side Main 2 Flyover is having the decorative parts forming moving along very slowly. One rapped one even blocks the south pathway now.
------------------
The series will be continued Thursday, October 11, 2012 with these segments: The Colton Santa Ana River Trail parking area, the future Highgrove overpass site, A Triple-Track Grade Crossing with an Old Signal Bridge, Riverside’s Riverside Ave. and Streeter Ave. future underpasses.
That little yellow tractor is a remote (Wired) controlled vibratory compactor. Taking a ride on that may result in having to go visit your dentist!! :)
http://www.dowdconstructionsupply.com/WackerVibratoryTrenchRollers.html
WAS ON SUNSET AT CP RILLITO TODAY 10/08 THEY A RAIL SET-OUT TRAIN READY TO GO
INTHE SIDING EAST OF RILLITO, WORKERS WERE ON TOP OF RAIL CARS , ENGINE RUNNING,
I SAT THERE FOR AN HOUR BUT NO MOVEMENT SO I CONTINUED ON MY TRIP TO BENSON.
GOT PICS OF VAIL CROSSOVER. WILL BE AT VIET NAM ARMY UNIT REUNION FOR A WEEK AT
FT HUACHUCA, AZ. WILL CONTINUE UP TRACK EASTWARD FROM BENSON ONTHE 16 OF OCT
Yep, there was also a tie train west of there last Thursday (sorry, haven't been online to post).
I'll try to take a spin out that way, but it looks like they're either finishing up the last section between Red Rock & Naviska, or starting the section between Naviska & Rillito.
OK, there's definite activity going on.... I did a trip today out to Red Rock and back, and there's definitely something going on. The rail train mentioned above was sitting on the CalPortland siding east of Rillito, and looks like it hasn't moved, but there was a crew from UP/Progress out there.
The good news is that the rail train was already empty, and rail sitting on the ballast the entire stretch between Naviska (SP959) and Sabino (SP970).
The shocker for me was that there are now signal masts at the new CP Sabino. That's all gone up over the last two weeks or so.
East side, Track 2:
West side, Track 2:
Masts for the yet-to-be-built Track 1 are sitting just south of the Twin Peaks Road overpass:
That's a lot of progress for an area which hasn't seen much since the signal cabinet first showed up early this spring...
View looking east from the private crossing near the east end of Rillito:
Between Naviska and Rillito, at SP960.8, several track panels have been cut out, and the first half of the fabled "new 50mph crossovers without a name" is now in place, connecting to what is new Track 1.
(updated 10/10) It is definitely a high speed crossover -- the switch motor is locked out and under the tank car's truck, with a shaft going to the middle of the points visible under the gondola's truck.
Another work train was parked at a RIP track near the west side of Naviska:
We came back an hour after we first drove by, and the power & first gondola were gone.
Something else we noticed... All the wooden line poles immediately east of Red Rock are now de-wired, and lying on the ground. My guess is UP is not trying to reclaim or recycle the poles for their own use, as they're sitting haphazardly on and even off the ROW in quite a few places... The wire was clearly gone, but more than half the poles look like they had already been stripped of their blue/green glass and brown ceramic insulators, presumably by collectors... I'm guessing most of the insulators date from the 50's.
When I passed red rock on monday there was a contractor picking up the pole west to east, there were a couple of tangled wire bundles. justbeast the poles had the wires on them the last empty pole had a up truck next to it and the it had just been cut down. there was also 3 different crews putting up signal towers
Part XIV (of XIV-XXII, Overall I-XXII)
The Santa Ana River Trail Parking Area
Very recently the Santa Ana River Trail walkway-bikeway was featured in this thread, by the Sunset Route, barely visible on the upper left. (A reshown photo)
The Colton parking area for that mostly paved pathway is a few miles away, where the Santa Ana River and Trail goes under La Cadena Drive, by the BNSF Transcon south of town.
Continued in Part XV
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