It was intended to reply to David1005 and also share with the forum SKETCHY plans for possibly (“possibly”) visiting the Yuma, AZ area sometime soon, but a seemingly malfunctioning TRAINS forum website kind of thwarted those intentions.
At a K.P. thread of the same name as this one at another website, he has found that site to function flawlessly, is quite refreshing, and a pleasure to use. It is just baffling why TRAINS can’t have the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
We recently drove from Dallas to Phoenix using I-30, 20, and 10. These routes follow the T&P and Sunset route. The eastern part of the trip on I-30 and 20 only has brief views of the single track T&P. West of Midland the interstate is in close proximity to the T&P with double tracking only in high traffic areas such as Midland/Odessa. West of this area the line is single track. At Sierra Blanca you see the single track Sunset route curving into the T&P although from the freeway you cannot see the junction. Single track continues to El Paso where double track starts in the eastern suburbs. Several trains were stopped on passing tracks waiting for a meet. The opposing train usally came by in short order. The rest of the trip from El Paso to Phoenix is double track. Well not completely into Phoenix but to where the Sunset route veers off to Tuscon. Several trains were encountered in AZ and NM going both ways. In the areas where there were highway signs warning of dust storms we encountered a work that I think was cleaning ballast. It was making quite a cloud of dust blowing from the work site. Fortunately the highway was up wind of the cleaning train. It took us three days of windshield time to make the trip. Since we will be moving to Phoenix by year end we left our car at our house there and flew back. At my age of 78 I do not want to drive it again.
With UP now going the Hunter Harrison IC/CN//CP/CSX route of Precision Scheduled Railroading, it makes one wonder about any future double-tracking of the Sunset Route.
With the principal of 10,000-12,000 foot trains and the elimination of some types of unit trains such as autorack trains in favor of ”general purpose” trains, train frequency may drop.
The double track “islands” between the end of double track in CA to the end of double track in AZ already are functioning as de facto long passing sidings for long trains, and the Los Angeles & Salt Lake already functions as a “third main track” out of the LA Basin for traffic bound for Chicago.
It is also likely that long sidings on other corridors will eat up a considerable amount of UP’s capital budget as it implements PSR over other single track routes in theit network.
kgbw49With the principal of 10,000-12,000 foot trains and the elimination of some types of unit trains such as autorack trains in favor of ”general purpose” trains, train frequency may drop.
To avoid another Meltdown (or at least more crew starts) they will have to join some adjacent sidings and/or build ~10 mile DT segments. Neither option will keep those 10K+ foot trains moving enough to avoid many fuel-expensive 'stop, wait and start' events. If the ops folks really do the modeling the ~20 mile DT with u/c may come out ahead.
Yet another factor is what time and track it takes to make up and tear down those long trains. Probably a more likely cause of future meltdowns - see 1996-1998 Houston for precedent.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
In my erlier post I talked about the stopped trains I saw on the T&P route. All of the Sunset route west of El Paso was double track almost to Phoenix. I know there are no current plans to my knowledge to double track the T&P and several long trains were on sidings waiting for an oncoming train. I assume the same holds true for the sections of the Sunset route that are not double tracked in California and Arizona. How often do the crews go dead on the passing siding? How much fuel is used idleing? I remember hearing several years ago that removing one track in a double track area reduced the capacity to 65% of the double track capacity. How close is UP to being at capacity in the non double track areas? I would prefer to see the small sections of single track in CA and AZ being double tracked. Then there is the problem of the single track over the Colorado at Yuma.
https://www.up.com/investor/factbooks/
On the linked page, scroll and select “2017 Fact Book” Which is a PDF file.
On the fourth page of the PDF there is a map of the UP system showing where they have double track.
They have lots of single track in Texas and the Mid-America Corridor to Chicago, although a bid in Arkansas up to the Mississippi River is operated as directional running on two parallel main lines.
They also have lots of single track on their line to Portland.
Getting long sidings in place on those single track sections may eat up a lot of capital, which if so would pull capital away from further Sunset Route double tracking in CA and AZ.
It will be interesting to see how that plays out.
In Southwestern Arizona!
On Saturday, September 22, 2018 K.P. visited southwestern Arizona, specifically, the Yuma-Wellton area to check on the status of the new signal replacements being erected account of the Positive Train Control regulations. It was found that all the new signals are up and working in that area! The below view is of CP SP738 EAST YARD (Yuma), the end of two-tracks eastward. A new cantilever signal structure was erected too.
PHOTO LINK: https://i.postimg.cc/bN33ctVD/2018-0922-09.jpg
That CP’s equilateral ‘wye’ switch is STILL present, making the signals on the new cantilever structure seemingly out of harmony with the physical plant!
At CP SP743 FORTUNA a new CP box is now present with new color light mast signals.
The above mast signal has a lower two-lamp head, though the next signal to the east (Main 2) is capable to yellow over green. The lack of a lower three lamp head here may be a speed safety design.
More photos of the whole said area are elsewhere on the Internet.
This is the end of the post.
Who changed my link for CP738 EAST YARD? It worked fine in testing yesterday!
PHOTO LINK: https://i.postimg.cc/ZqVWPC66/2018-0922-01.jpg
Oh, I know. It was the Devil! You know, that pitch forked guy from Orange Julius fame decades ago! Kalmbach must have hired him ...
Here is a little more information of the geyser near Niland that has forced the UP to build a shoe fly around it.
http://www.icphd.org/news-media/
ccltrains We recently drove from Dallas to Phoenix using I-30, 20, and 10. These routes follow the T&P and Sunset route. The eastern part of the trip on I-30 and 20 only has brief views of the single track T&P. West of Midland the interstate is in close proximity to the T&P with double tracking only in high traffic areas such as Midland/Odessa. West of this area the line is single track. At Sierra Blanca you see the single track Sunset route curving into the T&P although from the freeway you cannot see the junction. Single track continues to El Paso where double track starts in the eastern suburbs. Several trains were stopped on passing tracks waiting for a meet. The opposing train usally came by in short order. The rest of the trip from El Paso to Phoenix is double track. Well not completely into Phoenix but to where the Sunset route veers off to Tuscon. Several trains were encountered in AZ and NM going both ways. In the areas where there were highway signs warning of dust storms we encountered a work that I think was cleaning ballast. It was making quite a cloud of dust blowing from the work site. Fortunately the highway was up wind of the cleaning train. It took us three days of windshield time to make the trip. Since we will be moving to Phoenix by year end we left our car at our house there and flew back. At my age of 78 I do not want to drive it again.
I travel this route several times a year and have observed the same kind of congestion. I suspect at least part of it is due to the increased drilling activity throughout the Permian Basin which stretches over 100 miles. The double-tracking right around Midland-Odessa allows locals to stay out of the way of the through traffic, but the oil, sand and chemicals still have to get in and out of the area, mostly to the east from what I can tell. Also, there are several new frac sand terminals along that stretch and unit frac trains are common. It's makes for an odd mix (tonnage) with the intermodals (speed) that seem to otherwise dominate.
Given the history of severe ups and downs in the oil extraction business, I'm not positive that the UP is quite ready to invest what it would take to make this a two-track railroad from Fort Worth to Sierra Blanca.
John Timm
MEXICO, Red Rock, and TRAINS Magazine’s Failure …
… to “See” (and write about) Invisible Trains
In another thread the out of service rail line through Carrizo Gorge (to and from San Diego and MEXICO) had been inquired about and then reported on by repliers, with a linked newspaper source estimating five to six trains a day are planned to utilize the line at first when (and if) it opens. It is presumed that is total trains and not single direction figures. Because of curvature and super rugged terrain, the article indicated trains would be limited to only 60 cars. It did not say what type of cars those would be, Intermodal or loose boxcar types, or both. The article painted rosy prospects and bigtime progress on the effort to reopen the line.
NEWS LINK: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sd-me-tijuana-railroad-20181013-story.html
It dawned on K.P. after reading the news account that the seemingly eternal delay in UP building the Red Rock (AZ) Classification Yard may be to insure that the Carrizo route is for real before UP forks out big money into a yard effort there. It is unknown how much NEW boxcar type traffic would be brought to the Red Rock yard from San Diego and Mexico for classifying, but combined with eastbound cars to be classified FROM the Los Angeles area, the total sum might make a Red Rock facility worthwhile. (The other delay possibility is the delay in two-tracking in Arizona may be a negative environment in Arizona that has not yet been resolved).
In the November 2007 issue of TRAINS Magazine Fred Frailey penned an excellent article on the Sunset Route and the then progress on the two-tracking thereon. In that article Frailey indicated in the master plan West Colton Yard in California would be the westbound classifying yard, whereas the not built yet Red Rock Classification Yard in Arizona would be the eastbound classifying counterpart facility. In that article Frailey unintentionally confused those FAMILIAR with and in the know of West Coast Union Pacific rail lines and operations
In K.P.’s opinion Mr. Frailey just conveyed what UP had conveyed to him, and both Frailey and UP were thinking of information as a speech writer would, only using material relevant to the theme, i.e., the Sunset Route. Speech writers know an audience will lose interest very quickly if a speech tangents off into not relevant material. So Frailey and UP stayed on focus and on theme, the Sunset Route.
Unfortunately, that left those familiar with Los Angeles operations confused, because much traffic headed to or came from the Central Corridor, as well as the Pacific Northwest. That traffic became invisible, sort of speaking, in Frailey’s work. But, broadening the scope to a system wide perspective and NOT just the Sunset Route, West Colton Yard would handle eastbound traffic as usual, except for the Sunset Route, which would be handled by Red Rock in Arizona.
In collecting boxcars, etc., in the Los Angeles area, TWO pickup trains or ability to sort TWO destinations (West Colton and Red Rock) would need to be had. Exactly how that aspect would be handled is unknown at this time. It could be that Red Rock will hump traffic ONLY FROM Mexico, solving the problem in the first two sentences of this paragraph’s dual pickup dilemma for Los Angeles yards. It would be something if eastbound trains from West Colton Yard ducked into Red Rock and made large pickups, had engines added, and continued on eastward.
When eastbound traffic from MEXICO and San Diego is added most if not all that traffic would head east, making the Red Rock location a logical choice. Such traffic likely would be totally new to the UP system, hence, enhancing its bottom line, the incentive for building a yard in Red Rock.
Now, K.P. will go back into hibernation, probably for a long time …
Welcome back KP. To bad you can't post your pics here cause that other place has horrid ads with every photo.
john
K.P.,
I would like to share just a bit of personal reflection here. I am old enough to recall SPTCO trains on the San Diego line during the 1960s. The SD&AE, if I remember right, existed only on paper at that time. All the motive power and rear end equipment (cabooses were still in vogue at that time) was SPTCo equipment and lettered for Southern Pacific.
We made many trips from Arizona to SD along what was then old U.S. 80. I would often spot a train struggling over the line. "Struggling" is the right word.
No six axle units and they were often powered by as many as eight four axle units! Trains were short; I cannot say if they were limited to exactly 60 cars or what but they were quite short compared to the stuff barreling down SP's mainline.
I want to say that I would like very much to see the line improved and reopened. It would be both a boon to the local economy and to the railroad industry in general.
But here's the clincher: It would have to be rebuilt to accomadate double-stacks and if that can't be done, then I'm not sure it's worth it. The sad fact is that there is just no longer a whole lot of stuff getting shipped in boxcars.
Oh and K.P., please stop hibernating. Your posts are too interesting. We miss them!
Regards
Fred M. Cain
Fred M. Cain (10-24) and All: A Hodgepodge of Angles
It certainly would be nice if that Carrizo Line would be rebuilt. And, reportedly, a Mexican outfit intends to do just that. But, yet, the Baja California Railroad (BJRR) in listing what they transport “Intermodal” is conspicuously NOT listed! Scroll down to “What Do We Transport” at the “Services” page at their website.
LINK: https://www.bajarr.com/en/services/
So, the tunnels may not need to be enlarged! And, a future Union Pacific Red Rock yard in Arizona may be in the plan IF (“if”) things work out for those Mexican investors.
In looking at aerials, NO present Intermodal locations are present, at least that I can discern. And, boxcar traffic is questionable. If promoters envision a shortcut for loose boxcar traffic in the Oceanside-San Diego area, they may have discovered something there. But, the volume of traffic seems questionable. And, that questionable may be the cause of UP’s mysteriously holding off on building a yard at Red Rock.
About Hibernation (Fred and All Continued)
As far as long term waking up from hibernation, I doubt it. The TRAINS forums have extremely lowered in post counts, and I believe it is on its way out. I see little incentive to contribute much now, nor spend the large sums of trip money necessary to post factual and onsite photos anymore.
I have contributed some to the thread of the same name at the railroad.net site, Class I’s, Union Pacific, but recently found the site changes itself automatically (I think), and in the process self-changed font sizes after a month or so, and those posts cannot be edited anymore. Oh, well.
The NEW Positive Train Control (Fred and All Continued)
Positive Train Control, especially in the last five years, has dramatically reduced two-tracking on the Sunset Route. Now a new Positive Train Control has arisen that surely will consume the railroads’ attention. It is called Precision Scheduled Railroading.
UP announced and started implementing Precision Scheduled Railroading this October (2018), with the first territory being the Texas-Chicago area. According to the TRAINS Newswire (October 25, 2018), the Sunset Route is next. (Cool!) The point, however, is that UP will be preoccupied with implementing Precision Scheduled Railroad for the next year or so, so resumption of two-tracking is very unlikely for a while, at least in K.P.’s opinion.
After that, probably (“probably”) there will be locomotive cockroach infestations that the government will mandate onboard cameras watch every nook and cranny and auto exterminators be use, BUT those auto exterminators will consume a few more years FIRST because they will have be perfected. (Not to be taken seriously.) Surely by 2030 two-tracking of the Sunset Route will finally resume after much delay.
On the other Hand (Fred and All Continued)
In Precision Scheduled Railroading coming soon to the Sunset Route, it will be most interesting what UP will find in Arizona, where long single-track sections still exist. Previously, the long single-track sections could be fleeted on, getting somewhat around the need for two-tracking. But, will UP find the long sections of single-track in Arizona super troublesome with PSR? If a couple of ten mile sections of single-track are quickly two-tracked, we will know it was troublesome. If no two-tracking results, UP was able to work around those long sections of single-track. Should be interesting to see what happens.
OK, Fred, all that should pacify you for a while and it is hoped that you are smiling!
Hibernation is blissful (snore, snore),
K.P.
K.P., I too have noticed over the past several months that postings to this forum go through some occasional dry spells. Doesn't necessarily mean that viewership is down; maybe just fewer moments where someone has something to add to the conversation. Or heightened fear of having one's face ripped off by some troll who always thinks he/she has exclusive access to the facts. (Clarification in a civil manner is always welcome.)
Your photos and insights over the years on Cajon, the Sunset Route, etc., have been greatly appreciated. You've created a very detailed timeline of the changes to track, signaling, operations, etc., that will no doubt be referenced by authors, railfans, mapmakers, and (hopefully) editors for decades to come.
There are times when I have little or nothing to add to any threads active at the time - so I don't. I'm sure others are in the same boat.
Of course, a lively, controversial thread usually results in a flurry of activity, for a while.
Even a thread like this one will eventually run out of material/steam (ie, the two-tracking will be complete) unless it morphs into something else. At least until someone resurrects it years from now.
Inasmuch as I have little interest in this particular topic, I rarely actually read it. I just click on it so the "new" flag goes away. Today I happened to read the last couple of posts.
With the other media now available, all fora such as this are likely to fade into the sunset.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
K.P, with Precision Scheduled Railroading it seems like the initial focus regarding track infrastructure is for the installation of more long sidings to handle 10,000-12,000 foot trains and keep them moving. Then double track seems to follow if traffic growth materializes. That is the path CN has seemed to follow.
So perhaps for those longer stretches of single track remaining on the Sunset Route in Arizona and southeastern California, maybe we will see more 12,000-15,000 foot sidings put in first at required intervals.
It may be that five to seven new 15,000 foot sidings spaced out strategically between the existing double track islands will provide more capacity in the near term to keep trains moving than 15 miles of double track in one location.
Of course, those sidings could be constructed so that as train counts rose they can easily serve as part of the second main track when a second main track is warranted.
(See page 4 of the linked PDF for a map showing the remaining Sunset Route single track.)
https://www.up.com/cs/groups/public/@uprr/@investor/documents/investordocuments/up_pdf_2017_investor_fact_book.pdf
It will be interesting to see how that all plays out, especially because it sounds like UP is going to accelerate the deployment of PSR to the Sunset Route yet this year.
Since they will be buying fewer locomotives under PSR, there may be capital freed up to deploy additional long sidings on remaining single track segments of the Sunset Route in 2019.
I don’t know what the train count is on the Sunset Route right now, but it should go down with fewer but longer trains under PSR.
Time will tell and as always it will be interesting to see what actually transpires!
I believe there are around 40 to 50 trains per day on the Sunset Route. I have seen this number a few times in the last several years through books and discussions.
I think it is interesting that everyone is concerned by the long stretches of single-track on the Sunset Route in Arizona and California in handling longer trains. By comparison, CN has at least 40 trains per day between Edmonton and Jasper on the Edson Subdivision and that line is about 50% double-tracked. Most of CN's trains are over 10,000 feet on that line. I believe the UP Sunset Route is around 83% double-tracked between El Paso and Los Angeles. As per the Fact Book, it looks like the longest stretch of single track is southwest of Phoenix. I see two smaller stretches of double-track in California as well. There are similarly long segments of single track on CN's Edson Sub. If UP were to start running more trains at 10,000 feet on the Sunset Route west of El Paso, I don't think lack of double-track would be a problem. I think grades and yards would be a bigger concern. Single-track would be more of a concern east of El Paso.
kgbw49 So perhaps for those longer stretches of single track remaining on the Sunset Route in Arizona and southeastern California, maybe we will see more 12,000-15,000 foot sidings put in first at required intervals. Of course, those sidings could be constructed so that as train counts rose they can easily serve as part of the second main track when a second main track is warranted.
About siding length. Previous posts have noted that CSX installed very long sidings in the 20 - 30k length on the Fitzgerald sub. That way 2 extra long trains could take siding(s)together to enable passing trains or making rolling meets. PSR would seem to indicate that this would be the best way to maintain schedules on the Sunset route ?
Makes sense. A handful of those in the single track gaps would probably do the trick for many years. Especially if they drop Cap Ex investment for a period of years as seems to be the case with every PSR implementation.
And then again there's the issue with the moribund West Phoenix Line (which UP now officially calls the "Wellton Branch"). I think someone on this list has pointed out that there has been little double-tracking between Wellton and Picacho Junctions. I have corresponded with someone at the UP on the subject and they will not publicly state what their intentions are only that they "have no plans to reopen the line and no plans to officially abandon it" or words to that effect. Hmmmmn. Strange. They must be keeping it hanging for some reason but we don't know why.
As was pointed out earlier this year on this thread, there is ample evidence that the UP made some preliminary efforts to reopen the line back around 2013, I think it was, but then the work was aborted. Again, why? The fact is that we don't know and UP won't say.
Regards,Fred M. Cain
Some new construction on the Yuma sub may be unavoidable:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-niland-mud-pot-20181101-story.html
Perhaps our local civil engineering experts can suggest a solution .... floating 'mud bog' bridge?
MikeF90 (11-1):
That Los Angeles Times news clip and video down by Salton Sea was a great find, Mike!
What amazed me, besides the clarity of the write-up, was its accompanying video showed a disconnected one-track shoofly WITHIN a connected and in service two-track shoofly!
[quote user="MikeF90"]
I Tried …
Extended attempts (plural) were made to reply to Bruce Kelly (10-26), kgbw49 (10-28), ADRIAN BALLAM (10-30), Fred M. Cain (10-31), and diningcar (11-3), but something (“something”) just wouldn’t let me … So I won’t. The last straw was in testing another attempt at posting a revised write up, but this time Google Maps actually refused to let me link to the trainsmag.com website. I’m totally baffled now.
Hey, in a cursory look at Page 1 of this forum earlier today, 13 days of posts were seen, on ONE forum page! Is this a Twilight Zone episode of some sort?
Oh well. I’m sleepy anyway and ready for an extended hibernation …
An effort to keep this thread alive and share a cool photo ..
http://www.railpictures.net/showimage.php?id=682750&key=5753627
rdamonshare a cool photo ..
You should pardon the expression.
Great photo. Very nice
ChuckCobleigh rdamon share a cool photo .. You should pardon the expression.
rdamon share a cool photo ..
You are correct, how cold of me.
Well, it looks like UP is now running the huge trains on the Sunset Route. A railfan caught a train exceeding 200 cars near Phoenix. Here is the link and enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnN4nQhSYn0&lc=z23li3brfq24ju11m2hd0tjvznf34w1farae5ulsrj00u00c2.1551485005600241.
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