Report as of Monday, February 15, 2010:
Pomona, CA
Part B (of A-B)
Thursday and Saturday's Featured Turnout Has Already Been Installed
That new SP switch under construction just west of Hamilton Blvd. has been installed, and is now in service for one route.
The switch is part of the big, new [CP] AL514 HAMILTON that will replaced the current, old [CP] AL514 HAMILTON. Note that the turnout route does NOT lineup with the turnout route on the LA&SL side by the bottom of the center signal mast's ladder, indicating two more switches between the above two are in the future.
Four panel tracks are now stacked up in the background (north side).
Things seem to be taking place faster now ... But, unfortunately, the Pomona area probably won't be able to be visited by this poster for at least two weeks.
This poster, though, is inclined to believe that the "spring frogs" on the Pomona turnouts are quite significant, and is a telltale sign about how future Los Angeles-Colton trains will be routed. More information about this will be forthcoming probably within a week ... and will include both a number of fresh Los Angeles photos and a couple re-shown from West Colton Yard.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
K.P., great picture update.
The Alameda Corridor East project posted the agenda for their upcoming February meeting, which includes the minutes from last month's meeting.
Regarding the Temple Avenue Train Diversion project, an ACE officer said that the recent rainfall damaged some of the recently finished slopes, and that more work will be needed. Three months may be added to the project because of Caltrans and Union Pacific issues.
My uneducated guess is that there may be minor-to-moderate damage to the grading for this project. Hopefully we keep getting rain but at a slower, less harmful pace.
Discerning Future Los Angeles-West Colton Route Patterns From Frogs
Part I (of I-II), Section A (of A-C)
Background: In the Los Angeles-West Colton corridor, there are two routes, (1) the traditional Sunset Route via West Colton Yard, Fontana, and Alhambra (the SP Alhambra Sub); and (2) through Riverside and Montebello (the LA&SL Los Angeles Sub). Through Pomona the two routes are side by side, and with switches between them for great flexibility. Those switches presently have traditional frogs.
So, it can be concluded that traditional frogs excel when both routes (straight and turnout) have high volume usage, whereas spring frogs are especially useful when the majority of trains use the straight (non-turnout) route.
Continued in Part B
Part I, Section B (of A-C)
About Pomona ... Note the previously shown May 10, 2009 photo below from the Highway 71 overpass in Pomona looking eastbound on the LA&SL.
In that photo just above, the present LA&SL Main 1 is the center LEFT track, Main 2 is the center RIGHT track. The whitish ballasted track on the far right is not in service yet, and is irrelevant to our immediate discussion.
LA&SL Main 2 above (center right) is all STRAIGHT switch routing to Hamilton Blvd., where the below previously shown westward looking photo was shot on November 13, 2009 shortly after the track was shifted five feet to the north (rightward).
LA&SL Main 1 (two photos above), on the other hand, transitions eastward to the SP side. It too is STRAIGHT switch track all the way to Hamilton Blvd. where the below westward photo was taken from on October 17, 2009.
In the just above photo, the track on the lower right foreground is the original SP main, and presently alignment shifts to the left, STRAIGHT tracks through AL513 and turns left in the background. The middle signal on the left is AL513's west side eastbound signal for that track. The TURNOUT route curves back (rightward, the dark shadowy track in the photo lower center) to the original SP main track alignment and on its way to Los Angeles goes under Highway 71 in the photo distant background. The further Humane Way overpass is partially seen slightly below the Highway 71 bridge.
Now, re-look at the first photo in this section. Picture the eventual four tracks thereat, identified from left to right as D, C, B and A. The D track is obviously graded but not laid yet. Track D will be SP Main 1, C will be SP Main 2, B will be LA&SL Main 1, and A will be LA&SL Main 2 (the whitish ballasted track).
Continued in Section C
Part I, Section C (of A-C)
Our east looking D to A arrangement in Section B above translates to the same D to A on the not-in-service yet signal bridge in the previously shown eastward photo below shot from Hamilton Blvd. on June 8, 2009.
This forum poster suggests that Main B (which will have shifted to the SP side, and is presently not laid on the cleared land on the above photo's bottom right, and have Mains D and C alongside it to the north, or photo lower left), and will continue eastward back into the photo distance as part of three-tracks for a few more miles on the SP side. Our Main C, then the center track of the three, will end, turning into either Main 1 or Main 2, or perhaps will wye into both, with two mains thereafter heading east to West Colton Yard as Mains 1 and 2. Main A (under the far right signal heads above) takes a different route eastward (via Riverside).
That would explain the un-laid "mystery track" previously highlighted in this topic.
Please remember, though, as logical as all this may be, it is NOT from official sources and is only conjectural.
Remember, too, there is bridging for two additional tracks over the Garey Ave. road underpass, even though ...
... there currently is an unused cement walkway resting right on that bridging. That walkway is visible in the below photo's right, on the other side of the metal fence railings.
The above two photos were taken on November 18, 2009.
The only new bridging needed would be over Towne Ave., which should be simple enough to rather quickly accomplish.
The photo above was taken on August 24, 2009.
So basically, from a broad overall perspective, there would be a three "straight-track" arrangement, i.e., (1) LA&SL Colton to LA&SL Los Angeles via Riverside [Main A to A in Pomona]; (2) SP Colton to LA&SL Los Angeles [Main B to B in Pomona], and (3) SP Colton to SP Los Angeles [Main D to D in Pomona]. Since there would be NO crossovers anywhere with a high turnout-mode use, spring frogs would be a logical choice, and thus would give trains a smooth ride going over them in either mode.
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Part II is scheduled to be posted the afternoon of Monday, February 22, 2010, and will take a look at how the TWO Sunset Routes west of Pomona (LA&SL and SP) end in Los Angeles. Then, we will correlate that to new spring frogs in Pomona.
Part II (of I-II), Section A (of A-D)
Los Angeles, CA
We start Part II almost at the western edge of the original Sunset Route, which is right before Los Angeles Union Station. Based on the November 2010 TRAINS Magazine, page 46, a semi-general counterclockwise operating scheme is for westbounds to take the northern SP tracks into Los Angeles, whereas eastbounds generally take the southern LA&SL away from L.A.
That start is around M.P. 483 in the LATC and Shops area. West is to the photo right.
LATC is a rather confined intermodal facility. Allot of pulling out and shoving back moves are required in taking apart or making up a train, and a lead track (below) parallels the Sunset Route tracks here.
A westward, heavy telephoto view of the entrance to Union Station. Mission Tower (on the left) is a well known landmark to railbuffs. Years ago there use to be two-tracks through the truss bridge and into Union Station, but it now is single-track. The left track now curves leftward, and heads south.
Union Pacific's LA&SL route started its journey to Salt Lake City, UT several hundred feet south (left) of the diamonds in the above view, at M.P. 0.0. Now, Metrolink apparently owns a few miles of that line southward. Timetables put out by railfans show that southward trackage with Southern Pacific mileposts, which seems strangely odd to this railfan.
Continued in Section B
Part II, Section B (of A-D)
The below photo was taken SOUTH of the LATC and Shops area (far right), and shows the the tracks to the Alameda Corridor. Westbound trains go from the middle right edge to the photo center, then curve rightward again and toward the camera.
Looking south. The old LA&SL two-track line is curvy and slow going here. The Los Angeles River is on the right.
The above two photos were taken from the the Cesar E. Chavez roadway bridge.
At [CP] NINETH STREET some trains take transitioning trackage to the Alameda Corridor. A few blocks south of NINETH STREET the diverging route makes a very sharp curve. Looking north from the Perrino Place street.
At the southern edge of that curve the Alameda Corridor begins (on the background right), and meets trackage off the LA&SL (background left).
Part II, Section C (of A-D)
Coming west from off the OTHER route, the LA&SL, trains likewise move slowly on curvy track. The whole area is a tight land use area full of businesses. Looking east.
(By the way, east of the above photo, at East Los Angeles, the LA&SL also has a major TOFC and double-stack facility. It, as well as LATC, can be accessed from the SP or LA&SL.)
Both lines now junction into each other and head west over the Los Angeles River on a newer, multi-track bridge. Before the Alameda Corridor, SP had only a single-track truss bridge here.
A telephoto looking west. Redondo Tower is in the background. The overpass in the distance is the Santa Fe Ave. vehicle bridge.
Continued in Section D
Part II, Section D (of A-D)
From the Santa Fe Ave. overpass ... Looking eastward. The above last few photos were shot by the curves way in the distance.
BNSF Railway's line branches off to the right, and heads east to Chicago via the Transcon.
There are two back to back CP's in the views above. BEHIND the camera there are more crossovers ...
... As the below photo (looking northeastward) from 25th Street shows.
The line then curves southward in the many miles-long trench, which is very difficult to photograph as the below photo shows.
So, now you have the basic future THREE "straight-track" route patterns, as emphasized in Part I, i.e., (1) LA&SL Colton to LA&SL Los Angeles via Riverside [Main A to A in Pomona]; (2) SP Colton to LA&SL Los Angeles [Main B to B in Pomona], and (3) SP Colton to SP Los Angeles [Main D to D in Pomona]. Since there probably would be NO crossovers anywhere with a high turnout mode use, and spring frog switches thus would be a logical choice, and would give a smooth ride to trains going over them.
As mentioned before, the small map featured in the November 2009 TRAINS Magazine, page 46, illustrated the present counterclockwise route pattern between Colton and Los Angeles. This forumist believes that will change to a clockwise orientation. THAT will make the proliferation of new spring frogs in the Pomona area even more logical.
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Wednesday afternoon, February 24, 2010, photos of a new flyover type arrangement east of El Monte, CA will be posted ...
I am planning a trip to the inland empire shortly. Can you please advise me the cross streets nearest these crossovers. I will be coming west on I10 From Ontario
Thanks in advance for your assistance
K. P. HarrierReport as of Monday, February 15, 2010: Pomona, CA Part B (of A-B) Thursday and Saturday's Featured Turnout Has Already Been Installed That new SP switch under construction just west of Hamilton Blvd. has been installed, and is now in service for one route. The switch is part of the big, new [CP] AL514 HAMILTON that will replaced the current, old [CP] AL514 HAMILTON. Note that the turnout route does NOT lineup with the turnout route on the LA&SL side by the bottom of the center signal mast's ladder, indicating two more switches between the above two are in the future. Four panel tracks are now stacked up in the background (north side). Things seem to be taking place faster now ... But, unfortunately, the Pomona area probably won't be able to be visited by this poster for at least two weeks. This poster, though, is inclined to believe that the "spring frogs" on the Pomona turnouts are quite significant, and is a telltale sign about how future Los Angeles-Colton trains will be routed. More information about this will be forthcoming probably within a week ... and will include both a number of fresh Los Angeles photos and a couple re-shown from West Colton Yard.
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
spbed (2-23):
Get off I-10 in Pomona at Dudley St. (keep making rights until you are actually southbound on Dudley, which goes over the freeway), turn left at Holt Ave., right on Hamilton Blvd., and the tracks are at First Street. You can't miss it. I like parking on First St. just west of Hamilton Blvd., or on the east side of Hamilton Blvd just north of the tracks.
Hope you enjoy the train watching there ...
K.P.
PS: Somehow I think you may want to re-edit your inquiring post to eliminate the redundancy in it. (Hehehehe.) I access my old posts all the time to make "unbelievable" corrections with the "Edit" button ... (Hehehehe, too!)
Great photo coverage, KP! I should have anticipated the placement of the latest installed turnout, it appears that (effectively) the existing crossover is being moved closer to the new signal bridge during this reconfiguration. There appeared to be one (?) short curved track panel that wasn't installed. Hmmm.
K. P. HarrierAs mentioned before, the small map featured in the November 2009 TRAINS Magazine, page 46, illustrated the present counterclockwise route pattern between Colton and Los Angeles. This forumist believes that will change to a clockwise orientation.
LATC <-- Al -------/--< westbounds <------/-- Al1 --------> W ColtonEYard <-- LA 1 ---/-/------ either ------/-/--- Al2 (u/c) --> W ColtonEYard <-- LA 2 --/------> eastbounds >--/------ LA ---------> Riverside
CP W Temple CP Hamilton/Reservoir/?
KP - If you have the material, a quick pictoral comparison between movable and spring point frog types would be appreciated! Resolution permitting, closeup views of the new 'west Temple' CP turnouts could be enlightening - my eyes can''t make out the details.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
Thank U. Maybe if U R around we can connect. As long as the trains run S. Calif is terrific at least in my book.
U may be interested in this when I was last at Colton I met a UPRR hogger who said that the UPRR is in the process of the eliminating the old LA & SL route via Riverside & are going to move both E & WB traffic onto the old SPRR tracks & serve whatever industry there is on that small portion LASL by a local from Colton once/twice a week.
K. P. Harrierspbed (2-23): Get off I-10 in Pomona at Dudley St. (keep making rights until you are actually southbound on Dudley, which goes over the freeway), turn left at Holt Ave., right on Hamilton Blvd., and the tracks are at First Street. You can't miss it. I like parking on First St. just west of Hamilton Blvd., or on the east side of Hamilton Blvd just north of the tracks. Hope you enjoy the train watching there ... K.P. PS: Somehow I think you may want to re-edit your inquiring post to eliminate the redundancy in it. (Hehehehe.) I access my old posts all the time to make "unbelievable" corrections with the "Edit" button ... (Hehehehe, too!)
MikeF90 Great photo coverage, KP! [snip] KP - If you have the material, a quick pictoral comparison between movable and spring point frog types would be appreciated! Resolution permitting, closeup views of the new 'west Temple' CP turnouts could be enlightening - my eyes can''t make out the details.
[snip]
First - What he said above ^^^ !
Second - If you'll permit me to intervene here, a simple analogy may help to visualize and understand the differences:
Think of a frog as a small 'v' - the 'Point of the Frog', inside a larger 'V' - the 'wing' rails. The spaces between the two 'V's are the flangeways for each route.
With a spring frog, only one 'leg' or side of the outer/ larger 'V' wing rails moves sideways to contact the inner/ smaller 'v' of the frog, to form a smooth route. (For the 'Sliding Yard Frog' that was discussed on another thread last week, it's the entire and both legs/ sides of the outer/ larger 'V' that moves sideways to contact the inner/ smaller 'v' of the frog, to form a smooth route.)
In contrast, with a movable point frog, it's the entire inner/ smaller 'v' of the frog that moves sideways instead, to contact one leg or side or the other of the outer/ larger 'V' wing rails, to form a smooth route.
I hope this is helpful, pending additional great photos from K.P.
- Paul North.
Link to a pretty good close-up of a Movable Point Frog - all the ducting is for the hot air from the heater for cold weather:
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1072326140013746871MZckBB
Slightly further back view - switch-point - er, frog-point - operating machine just coming into view on the left:
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1072325972013746871FdBgKG
View from off the track to the left - now clearly showing the heater and the opeating machine:
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1072326061013746871DgzuPN
Warning sign for train crews in the event hand operation is needed:
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1072325745013746871nPplFN
Thanks, Paul, for posting the movable point frog photos. Since 9-11, I haven't dared get up on the tracks for close-up photos or for checking the metal tags and stamp marks on points and frogs. It's one thing to be trespassing, walking along or crossing the tracks; and quite another to be seen snooping around sensitive facilities - "unusual behavior."
It's hard to tell from the one photo; but the switch points appear to be curved, or even the "tangent" points UP was testing in Nebraska and at Pueblo a few years back.
Can you tell us what were the type and length of switch rail, frog number, and allowed speed?
One thing that is apparent is the wear across the frog point from worn wheel treads and the indentation this leaves on the running surface of the rail. Fixed point frogs suffer similarly. Has this wear ever lead to, or been a suspected cause of a derailment?
Harvey, those are all very good questions - but those are not my photos. I only found them 'on-line' by using a Google ''Advanced Image Search' earlier this morning. So I don't know anything more about them or any details other than what appears in the photo itself and on the minimal captions on that website - sorry.
I meant to post earlier that what we need are some close-up photos of the motor mechanism and operating rods, and a sequence or one of the now almost ubiquitous ''YouTube'' videos of a Movable Point Frog moving each way, esp. the shorter frog rail.
Here's another 'gooder' photo of one and the entire turnout in the link below, which is stated to be good for 200 KMPH = 135 mph (HSR advocates and aficionados - don't read the rest of the caption, unless you want to cry . . . )
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=240339
Developments on the SP-Side West of Pomona, CA
Part A (of A-D)
Part of the Alameda Corridor East effort is grade separations. One of the more unusual grade separations is presently being built between El Monte and Hacienda Heights, CA. Instead of the road going over or under the tracks, the tracks are going over the roadway.
The project's WEST side begins just east of CP AL498, the east switch of the BASSETT siding. (To help forum readers gauge the location, the CP at Hamilton Blvd in Pomona is AL514.) This photo looks eastbound from Puente Ave. In the background is the up and over project. A lengthy shoefly has been built on the south side (photo right).
There is an office module just east of the Puente Ave. grade crossing. It is unknown if it is a project office or not, reminiscent of the unknown type of new module near the future big Colton Crossing project in the M.P. 538 area.
In our west to east discussion, the structure begins its ascent. Valley Blvd. that follows the SP line for a number of miles is a wide street. This forum contributor can remember when, though, as a kid, it was only a two-lane road ... But now, it is sometimes trying a person's patience to have to wait for the masses of traffic to open for a semi-clear photo view of the new bridging.
A three-track WIDTH is between the concrete sidewalls, but there was only a south side single-track 66-foot bridge over Orange Ave. At this time it is unknown if a second single-track bridge is pending installation alongside it or not. In looking at the 66-foot span, the bridging structure seems unusually thin and frail to be able to support 200-ton locomotives that are destined to pass over the span. The bridge's simple, protective rope-like railings seem inappropriate too, and makes this forum contributor wonder if the bridge is only a temporary one until a possible heavy duty bridge is brought in.
Part B (of A-D)
However, as the up and over is sloping downward to the east, it goes over a street named, ironically for this topic, Sunset Ave. That strong looking, 132-foot bridge appeared to be of a full multi-track width.
It SEEMS like the whole intersection will need to be lowered so Sunset Ave. can go underneath the lowering railroad bridge, but the Alameda Corridor East Construction Authority website illustrates the ROAD underneath the bridge as level with the present Valley Blvd. intersection immediately to its south.
On the east side of the project, the up and over structure ends (photo right) just west of California Ave., and the shoefly shifts back to the normal alignment and also ends.
So, the question arises: Is the new up and over in conjunction with a Sunset Route two-tracking project here, or is a multi-track width design a prudent contingency for a possible extra track sometime in the distant future? With the southern LA&SL line from Pomona to Los Angeles already two-tracked, combined with the northern SP side's single-track line, there is already three-tracks. So, adding another track here would seem a bit redundant.
Continued in Part C
Part C (of A-D)
The following may or may not be related to the up and over construction ... The last photo in Part B was shot westward from California Ave. The below photo from that California Ave. looks EASTWARD at a signaled siding in the background that has 85-foot empty flats stored on it.
That siding's east end does NOT return to the mainline, but goes through an interlocking. The below photo was shot looking westward from the Valley Blvd. overpass.
That interlocking's eastward non-mainline track, in going underneath Valley Blvd. arrives at the SP Industry Yard.
Continued in Part D
Part D (of A-D)
From the east side of Valley Blvd.: The west end of the yard has a wye.
The wye tracks pass an Intermodal parking lot and then goes over to the LA&SL, probably a quarter to a half of a mile away southward (photo right).
Industry has a mix of boxcar traffic and Intermodal. Newer UP yard power idles in this view. But, wow! The power is connected to a rare caboose!
The November 2007 TRAINS indicated that when both the future 'eastbound' Red Rock classification yard in Arizona is up and running, and its 'westbound' counterpart at West Colton Yard is functioning as a westbound facility instead of for both east and west classifying as it presently does, the various yards in the Los Angeles area would indiscriminately gather freight cars and ship them east to Red Rock for sorting and classifying.
In that case, a secondary track on that up and over now under construction west of the Industry Yard may fit logically into the master scheme. But, unless a forum contributor has further details and is willing to share them with us, we will all have to just wait and see what develops.
The Alameda Corridor East Construction Authority website indicates that the estimated $97.3 million project is 1.6 miles long, 45 feet wide, and is scheduled to be completed in "Winter 2010." With traditional 14-foot track centers, it would seem two-tracks and also an access road would easy fit over it, or three-tracks without an access road.
In Comparison: Colton Crossing
The Colton Crossing project in Colton, CA will be slightly shorter, at 1.4 miles, and is estimated to cost $198 million. Its width is unknown, but for $198 million one would think a four-track width would be in the works, but at least a three-track width. $198 million seems a bit much for just a two-track width.
That big Industry project above initially started in January 2007, with, as stated above, a projected completion date of Winter 2010, which this poster interprets narrowly as around Christmas 2010. That is a FOUR year project! One has to wonder how long the Colton Crossing project will last. The difference, though, between the two projects is that Colton has national interests and commerce at stake, and could therefore be completed within a much, much shorted time frame. But here again, time will tell ...
MikeF90 (2-23):
That counterclockwise-clockwise issue you ask for more details on ... I hope to opinion-address that in a few days ...
As far as moveable point frogs ... please checkout the memo to Paul North below ...
Paul D. North, Jr. (2-24):
Your link, Paul, on moveable point frogs was excellent. Thank you so much.
The Sunset Route doesn't seem to have easy-to-photograph moveable point frogs anywhere.
However, on September 1, 2008, photographic close-ups were made of such turnout parts for the then future [CP] COACHELLA several miles east of Indio, CA.
One thing especially found to be odd was how the rail vertically became thinner.
Exactly what the logic is in having the rail's lower part do that is unknown.
Anyway, it is hoped the above two photos were helpful in supplementing your great links.
Paul_D_North_JrHarvey, those are all very good questions - but those are not my photos. I only found them 'on-line' by using a Google ''Advanced Image Search' earlier this morning. So I don't know anything more about them or any details other than what appears in the photo itself and on the minimal captions on that website - sorry. I meant to post earlier that what we need are some close-up photos of the motor mechanism and operating rods, and a sequence or one of the now almost ubiquitous ''YouTube'' videos of a Movable Point Frog moving each way, esp. the shorter frog rail. Here's another 'gooder' photo of one and the entire turnout in the link below, which is stated to be good for 200 KMPH = 135 mph (HSR advocates and aficionados - don't read the rest of the caption, unless you want to cry . . . ) http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=240339 - Paul North.
Thanks again Paul. I know the TGV had some very long high-speed turnouts as well.
This type of turnout would be useful at the end of stretches of double track for lighter traffic routes where 110 mph trains could pass without speed reduction, and up to 120 mph (200x0.621) where incremental grade separation would allow higher speeds.
If the NEC 80 mph crossover was adapted as an equilateral turnout, similar but slightly shorter than the one in the photo, that might allow 110 mph as well.
I've read that UP might want to restore a second main track for much of the CHI-STL "Alton" line; otherwise such a turnout would be a better solution than the typical #20 turnout. Three miles for a 40 mph passing track for 10,000-15,000ft long "monster" trains takes 4.5 minutes compared to 1.64 minutes at 110 mph, a saving of three minutes or more with the time lost for braking and accelerating taken into account. The question is what would be the host railroad's reaction to an equilateral turnout forcing a diverging move?
Just allowing 1 minute off the schedule in either direction for a passenger meet at 110 mph would take a passing track about 3.9 miles long accounting for train length. Adding the the braking distance at both ends, about 6 miles is needed for a passing section every 55 miles and less when speed restrictions and station stops are taken into account. If up to two minutes lateness is allowed, another 3.7 miles is needed, bringing the length of the passing section to at least 9.6 miles.
There also are economic issues as to the cost and spacing of equilateral passing tracks compared to two main tracks with universal crossovers at intervals to facilitate inspection and trackwork.
HarveyK400 There also are economic issues as to the cost and spacing of equilateral passing tracks compared to two main tracks with universal crossovers at intervals to facilitate inspection and trackwork.
I do not believe that they are a long term solution. NC DOT is removing all between CLT and Greensboro that SOU installed years ago. They are installiing universal X-overs.
Another question What is the rail weight of the above equilaterals and if full 141# can they last under the possible 315,000# cars?
blue streak 1....Another question What is the rail weight of the above equilaterals and if full 141# can they last under the possible 315,000# cars?
I'm sure the the plan can be modified for 141# rail.
As for 315,000 lb cars, I haven't heard that the metallurgy has improved to that point yet. Is that still true? The 286,000 lb car was possible in part due to an increase in wheel diameter to increase the area of contact.
You inquired about the reasoning as to WHY I felt the present Colton-Los Angeles counterclockwise arrangement might be changed to a clockwise one in the future.
MikeF90 I don't have this mag issue, so I don't follow the reasoning to change to a clockwise routing preference.
I don't have this mag issue, so I don't follow the reasoning to change to a clockwise routing preference.
The conjectured reasoning has three premises: (1) There undoubtedly is a master two-track operating plan that will supersede the present single-track one, (2) present directional biases will remain (except the present biases from Thermal west, which likely will be reversed), and (3) Pomona, CA crossovers will likely all have 50 M.P.H. spring frogs.
Westward from El Paso, TX, trains are dispatched generally with a right-running bias, though either track may be used. At Cienega Creek, AZ, Main 1 goes over Main 2, resulting in a left-running bias westward thereafter. The below photo looks west where Main 1 goes over Main 2 (with the Main 1 bias travel from photo right to left, which is east to west).
Unfortunately, because of prohibitions against pedestrians standing on the very narrow, public auto bridge thereat, Main 2 that is BELOW the roadway was not able to be photographed and is not observable in the above photo. The November 2007 TRAINS, page 41, however, does have a very good Cienega Creek photo by Ray Lewis from another angle with one train going over the other. Unlike the photo above, that TRAINS photo looks east.The below re-shown diagram illustrates that reversing sides.
Likely, in the future, that reversed bias (left running) from Cienega Creek westward will remain all the way to Los Angeles, CA.
(Incidentally, as you undoubtedly are aware, in Tuscan the track designations -- that were reversed at Cienega Creek -- revert back to normal system track identifications, with Main 1 being on the right (diagram top track) as viewed going westbound [leftward].)
Because the future Red Rock Yard in Arizona will be on the north side, eastbound trains (for which the yard will be for) will likely enter or depart the yard with a Main 1 (north side) bias.
Interestingly, the revamped West Colton Yard (for future westbound traffic) in California has ALL trains departing only via Main 2 (south of the Balloon track). Main 1 (out of view on the photo lower left, goes via the north side of the Balloon) is now totally isolated from Main 2.
Presently, single-track generally all the way from Estrella, AZ becomes two-tracks at [CP] THERMAL in California (below).
From Thermal to West Colton Yard is presently RIGHT-track biased, and that works nicely with counterclockwise operations between Colton and Los Angeles, i.e., west on the SP Alhambra Sub and east on the LA&SL Los Angeles Sub via Riverside and the Viaduct. (Photo left to right.)
But, West Colton Yard is now LEFT-track (Main 2) biased for westbound departures, and that means inevitable conflicts and delays.
On the Central Corridor between Omaha, NE and Ogden, UT the line is a combination of double-track (each track signaled in only one direction) and two-tracks (both tracks signaled for both directions). That line is for the most part right hand biased. (Approaching Ogden the line is left biased.) A monkey wrench in the scheme is Sherman Hill. From Laramie to Cheyenne, WY, the line is left hand biased. Trains transitioning both in Laramie and Cheyenne are an operating nightmare, and the situation often looks like a log jam ... and Cheyenne has four main-tracks too!
That type of situation would develop around West Colton Yard if the LEFT-biased westbound departures tried to mesh with RIGHT-biased eastbound traffic!
But, in the future, reversing the general counterclockwise bias to a clockwise one in the Los Angeles Basin would solve those conflicts. What is more, two-tracking from [CP] ESTRELLA in Arizona to the present [CP] THERMAL in California WILL UNDOUBTEDLY BE left-track biased because of Cienega Creek! (That statement is contingent upon the line being two-tracked ALL the way west to Thermal, CA.)
The fact that spring-frog switches seem to be the new preferred installation choice in Pomona gives credence to this logic. If the master plan was for counterclockwise operation to continue, traditional frogs likely would be chosen because of the very high incidents of crossover routing needed in Pomona. It would somewhat be a log jam situation as on Sherman Hill in Wyoming!
From the little observation that I have had with the Alameda Corridor trench, it seems to have a left-running bias, as with the below photo of a train moving away from the camera and to the ports.
That photo above was of a westbound BNSF train. The trench hosts both BNSF and UP usage.
The BNSF Transcon is right-track biased entering California from the east, and is such all the way to past Victorville. At M.P. 39.1 on the line to Cajon Pass, is the so called "natural crossover," where right hand biased trains become left handed biased (though either track at any time can be used also).
That BNSF left-handed bias runs all the way west thereafter to the Alameda Corrider, where it junctions in from the east (below photo's right), with the trench several blocks behind the camera.
So, back to the UP counterclockwise-clockwise issue ... It seems to me that a future clockwise bias would work best, and the proliferation of low use spring frog switches in Pomona seems to give credence to that opinion.
On the other hand, as mentioned above, it would seem that a counterclockwise orientation in the Los Angeles Basin would cause a similar gridlock situation at Pomona as on Sherman Hill in Wyoming, and defeat the purpose in revamping AL514 and AL515 into one big CP, the new AL514.
It must be remembered that Main 1 from Los Angeles on the LA&SL WEST of Pomona is believed to run through Pomona as the B-Main in our previously posted theorizing, and become Main 2 on the SP-side east of Pomona to Colton.
It is hoped the above, MikeF90, adequately explains my clockwise opinion, which is just that, an opinion.
Necessary personal matters caused this poster to unexpectedly be in the Pomona area for hours, but afterward a few minutes were taken during a setting sun to photo document recent happenings in the Hamilton Blvd. area. I found the below east-side marking on a rail right by the street thereat to be quite revealing.
That tells this poster that three-tracks on the SP-side will head east from Hamilton Blvd., just as was suggested in this thread.
About your request for photos of the two types of frogs that have been highlights in this thread ...
MikeF90 KP - If you have the material, a quick pictoral comparison between movable and spring point frog types would be appreciated!
KP - If you have the material, a quick pictoral comparison between movable and spring point frog types would be appreciated!
The following re-posted item shows a pre-installation two-motor moveable point frog in Coachella, CA:
Two motor moveable point frog presently in service at AL515 RESEVOUR in Pomona:
High speed spring frog: West of Grand Ave. near the west side of Pomona
You didn't ask for ... But, here is a traditional common fixed frog at West Colton Yard, by Riverside Ave. The switch has since been removed and is now gone.
It is hoped the above adequately addresses your request.
Best wishes,
PS: I hope to photo post the findings in a few days as to my recent, unexpected visit to Pomona.
K. P. HarrierIt is hoped the above adequately addresses your request.
- The closeup of the high speed spring frog was especially informative. After a little more searching, I believe that we're looking at a hydraulic retarder. Someone correct me if needed, but after the lead engine opens the 'frogs throat' onto the diverging route, the retarder greatly slows the movement of the rail back to the resting position. This eliminates the need for motor driven points. Another article implies that this kind of turnout is a UP preference to reduce maintenance costs.
- The rail markings referencing 'three tracks' is intriguing. At this time I don't see the business or even much of an operational need for a fourth MT. Hmmm, maybe they're putting the Metrolink platform into a powered siding . As you say, we'll see.
EDIT - another WAG (wild a** guess) - perhaps UP will lay another track *west* of CP Hamilton on the new ROW to the new CP, creating a long passing siding for the Alhambra sub. /WAG
- Your argument for clockwise (left hand) running does make sense, most importantly to avoid congestion around West Colton. A second Alhambra sub MT west of Pomona (probably in the distant future) would mitigate the issues that I listed. Before any big changes, I think we'll have to see more progress on the 2MT project between WC and Pomona (and maybe that new yard in AZ).
TIA, Mike
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