Replies
SP357E44 (7-23):
While not ‘major’ grade crossings, Bellegrave Ave., Rutile Street, and Jurupa Road, all in the Pedley (CA) area, are other grade crossings, the first and last of which greatly contribute to massive cross street congestion. It would not surprise me if grade separation efforts were attempted at them as well.
On a humorous side … If you are still receiving dividends on your BNSF stock, never, ever tell Warren Buffet and Berkshire-Hathaway about it!
mvs (7-26):
Great find! That was an enlightening link.
I had thought Mission Blvd. (that parallels the LA&SL) would be separated from Milliken Ave., but I guess not.
Hopefully, each side of the overpass will have sidewalks. Up on a bridge should make for some interesting views never before available.
That unlinked address of your post is linked below for easy viewing by others at the forum.
http://www.ci.ontario.ca.us/index.aspx?page=34&recordid=250
desertdog (8-22):
Painting that LA&SL railroad bridge over the 91 Freeway in Riverside (CA) was a surprise. The color (tan) does remind us of Arizona bridges. But, I haven’t seen that in California for years.
kgbw49 (8-25):
To me it looks like a hole was welded out in the railroad bridge over the 91 Freeway, as if construction people had to correct a boo-boo in its construction. Since we are all seeing different things, obviously an illusion factor may be in play. In the next couple of weeks, when out that way again, it is hoped to be able to photograph that whatever it is from numerous angles. Hopefully, too, someone knowledgeable will be on site that can be asked questions of.
desertdog (8-25):
desertdog K.P., During the earlier phases of construction (mid-late 2000s), I don't recall any instance of replacing the SP searchlights with UP "Darth Vader-style" signals on single track. I'm thinking now that it has to do with PTC. John Timm
K.P.,
During the earlier phases of construction (mid-late 2000s), I don't recall any instance of replacing the SP searchlights with UP "Darth Vader-style" signals on single track. I'm thinking now that it has to do with PTC.
John Timm
Unlike the Estrella-Tucson, AZ two-tracking of several years ago, in which target signals gave way to color lights when that section was two-tracked, targets gave way to color light “Darth Vader” types several years before the stretch by Salton Sea (CA) was two-tracked. They were subsequently themselves replaced (because of different spacing) when the actual two-tracking took place.
UP seems to throw away new signals. Maybe they purchased a zillion signals at a song and a dance price, but don’t think anything about throwing them away after a few months, and take a tax credit at full price. There must be some rationale for such strange UP actions.
Super Hunky (8-25):
About that strange whatever (“dark brown area”) on the new railroad bridge over the 91 Freeway in Riverside (CA), let me get back there and hopefully re-photograph it at some different angles, if possible. To me, it looks like just a cutaway hole, but others see something else. As mentioned in the reply to kgbw49 (8-25), it sure would be nice to find someone to talk to on site when I get out that way in probably a week and a half. I will keep my fingers crossed on that one.
Deggesty (8-26):
Yes, I too like UP’s system of setting the tracks apart with the signal number, Track 1 or Track 2, etc.
What I do NOT like is UP using a similar arrangement recently at control points (CP’s), to identify tracks at the CP as opposed to intermediate signals numbering. An exhausted train crew on duty 11 hours, but up 24 hours, in a zombie state could misinterpret a vertical CP sign as a vertical number plate … and we all know the consequences of that …
SP357E44 (8-28/29):
That was great information about the route of old, original Sunset Route in Yuma, AZ, that it ran on Madison Street. The next time I’m out that way the plan is to take a few photos of the original route, which post of such should be quite educational for all of us at the forum. That old steamer on display should be a treat too!
rcdrye (8-31):
Well said!
As the mainline is converted from approach lit to constantly on displays, what a boon that will be for railfans! And, I suppose for railroaders too, as like on the Sunset Route between California and New Mexico, not only will their track’s signals be lit, but the other track too, which in many cases will give a crew a glimmer of expectation of what might be ahead.
Take care all,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Just because a new signal is taken down after only a few years because of some change doesn't necessarily mean the signal is scrapped. I've seen "used" signals reused at other locations.
The searchlight type signals aren't compatible (at least legally) for PTC. The requirement is for signals without moving parts. The searchlight types have a colored vane that moves in front of the single bulb to give the desired aspect.
The West Kennard control point on the Blair Sub used to have searchlight absolute signals from CNW days. One time we went past East Kennard on a Clear (green) signal. Just before E. Kennard had come into view, we heard the hot box detector a few miles west of West Kennard give an exit message. We came around the curve and West Kennard was at Stop (red). We had an empty hopper and a full service application brought it to a stop well before the signal. There was no train facing us. What had happened was the exit message was from a westbound train we were following. That colored vane has the red aspect in the middle, the green to one side, yellow to the other. If you ever have the chance to see a searchlight go from yellow to green, you will momentarily see a red aspect as that vane moves from yellow past red to green. The signal at W. Kennard had "stuck" on red when it was in the process of changing from yellow to green. We weren't the first crew to experience this. Within a couple of months the UP put in a new signal. New in the sense that it was a color light replacement signal. The signal itself was used, an old CNW style (non-Darth Vader hood) color light signal.
Jeff
I got a boatload of Berkshire Hathaway in the deal too so in hindsight my insider trading tip is: Buy Frisco stock. Heading out to see some Perris line/Riverside/Slover next week.
A10
SP657E44 I got a boatload of Berkshire Hathaway in the deal too so in hindsight my insider trading tip is: Buy Frisco stock. Heading out to see some Perris line/Riverside/Slover next week. A10 OK, so to summarize the curent state of things: 1. There are a number (and I don't know the number) of grade separation projects in the L.A - Riverside/Colton area in progress on the Sunset Route. 2. The San Gabriel Trench, which is an extension (yes?) of an existing trench (name?) is in progress. 3. When all of the pertinent grade separations are completed, they MAY double track from N. Ontario east for about 12 miles to CP Sierra. There is also a right-of-way issue, involving a Kinder-Morgan (ex-SP) pipeline. 2. On the Gila Sub, the Colfred to Mohawk double tracking runs from E. Colfred to a few miles east of the (now former?) E. Mohawk. It may or may not be in actual operation yet, but it is close. 3. Some double tracking is planned (but not started, as far as we know) between El Paso and Sierra Blanca. 4. There is some double tracking in the Houston area in progress (actually between Missouri City and Sugarland and, maybe to Richmond/Rosenberg). When I was there about 6 months ago, much of the grading for the right-of-way to Sugarland appeared to be done, but there were bridges and grade crossings that needed work before track-laying could actually occur. There was, however, a short length of unballasted track and a short bridge in place in the Sugarland area. So, aside from the double tracking in the Houston area and the completed or almost-completed Colfred to Mohawk work, is there any other double tracking work (site prep,track laying, signaling) in progress, just starting or, at least, planned for the near future? Also, feel free to correct or add to any of the above assumptions. Pete
OK, so to summarize the curent state of things:
1. There are a number (and I don't know the number) of grade separation projects in the L.A - Riverside/Colton area in progress on the Sunset Route.
2. The San Gabriel Trench, which is an extension (yes?) of an existing trench (name?) is in progress.
3. When all of the pertinent grade separations are completed, they MAY double track from N. Ontario east for about 12 miles to CP Sierra. There is also a right-of-way issue, involving a Kinder-Morgan (ex-SP) pipeline.
2. On the Gila Sub, the Colfred to Mohawk double tracking runs from E. Colfred to a few miles east of the (now former?) E. Mohawk. It may or may not be in actual operation yet, but it is close.
3. Some double tracking is planned (but not started, as far as we know) between El Paso and Sierra Blanca.
4. There is some double tracking in the Houston area in progress (actually between Missouri City and Sugarland and, maybe to Richmond/Rosenberg). When I was there about 6 months ago, much of the grading for the right-of-way to Sugarland appeared to be done, but there were bridges and grade crossings that needed work before track-laying could actually occur. There was, however, a short length of unballasted track and a short bridge in place in the Sugarland area.
So, aside from the double tracking in the Houston area and the completed or almost-completed Colfred to Mohawk work, is there any other double tracking work (site prep,track laying, signaling) in progress, just starting or, at least, planned for the near future?
Also, feel free to correct or add to any of the above assumptions.
Pete
A Very Special Memo to jeffhergert (9-2):
Enormous Repercussions (and Super Radical)
A five or six paragraph single post reply to your above dated post had been semi-prepared, with the LA&SL line from Los Angeles / Yermo (CA) through Las Vegas (NV) and up to Salt Lake City (UT) to the Central Corridor as an example, but the decision to field check a short portion of that line was made.
Previously shown January 21, 2013 photo: Very old east westbound signal at CP C183 FIELD on the LA&SL on the line to Las Vegas and Salt Lake City
The field check’s findings proved to be very, very different from what had been expected, and in many ways. The repercussions of that field check are enormous, and could change, not only signaling in your Iowa area, Jeff, but across the Sunset Route and future two-tracking efforts thereon as well!
A multi-post assessment of the trip’s findings will probably be able to be worked up in a few days.
Best,
Things Have Changed for K.P., But …
… Really Check Out this Photo
K.P. will be out of town Monday, September 7, 2015, and the “Enormous Repercussions (and Super Radical)” posting series will be delayed. Nevertheless, in the meantime, a key photo is presented below for your assessment. The absolute signal (that is, “absolute”) is the east westbound signal of CP C183 FIELD on the Los Angeles & Salt Lake line. Of particular interest is the lower head.
Compare the teaser photo in the posting above this one (Saturday, September 5, 2015). The target to color light signals conversion seems to have a historic precedent from decades ago that UP appears to be following. That will be covered, among other things, when the series is finally presented.
As for the lower head, it's a place holder. I know US rules are different from Canadian rules but in Canada a single head high mast CAN'T be a stop signal.
There is a very rare exception where an 'A' plate is used which makes it absolute when red. I do not know the location of any of such cases.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
OK, the explanation of the single lower head at FIELD is easy to understand once its explained, so here we go.
The siding at FIELD is a non-bonded siding (probably because of its short, 5760 foot length). This means a train setting in the siding isn't on CTC controlled trackage. Since it is possible for the siding to be occupied and a train lined into the siding by the dispatcher, the best aspect the signal in the photo can display is LUNAR, or in this case RED over FLASHING RED. It tells the train crew it can proceed into the siding but be at Restricted Speed as it may be occupied. If a train is lined straight thru the switch, the bottom head would be RED, so with either RED or FLASHING RED the only possibilities, there is no need for additional colors on the bottom signal head.
If the siding is bonded, then the signal can give a DIVERGING CLEAR or DIVERGING APPROACH signal for a train entering a siding (train can proceed at 30-40 MPH depending on switch speed and other factors). Thus the bottom signal head can be RED (if switch is lined straight) or yellow/green if Diverging so in that case the lower head would have all three colors.
The Union Pacific Employee Timetable will have a "!" symbol next to any siding that is bonded, thus allowing a entry signal more favorable that LUNAR.
More and More and More …
As the forum knows, K.P. was on the LA&SL in the Yermo-Field (CA) area Friday, September 4, 2015, and as a result had worked up much post material the next day. However, Sunday, February 6 the Riverside-Colton area was visited. Then, an opportunity arose for Monday, September 7 to check out the LA&SL up into Nevada. Hence, K.P. has a pretty good picture of the radical happenings on the LA&SL, and can relate it to the Sunset Route two-tracking and the meaning for it.
With target signals in the background (left) now on very borrowed time, a dead SD70M UP #4789 was found to have been set out at the Jean (NV) siding
Thus, an abbreviated Yermo-Field presentation will be worked up (reworked, with additional photo forthcoming later), and then what was found on Cima Hill on the LA&SL will be posted a few days later. Between the two postings we should all get a pretty good picture of how UP is responding to the enacted, overpowering Positive Train Control law.
Hopefully, by late tomorrow we will see the presenting of the Yermo-Field material.
Memo to BNSF6400 (9-7):
Thanks for your input.
Your conceptual thoughts on “dark” territory are basically right, but I both agree and disagree with your post application as it pertains to the LA&SL and Sunset Route. You might be surprised at a few new photos about Cima Hill and the conclusions one can deduct from them.
Take care,
Part I (of I-X)
This series resulted from a field check in response to a September 2, 2015 posting by forum contributor jeffhergert. The field check concerned the present status of the signaling on the Los Angeles & Salt Lake (LA&SL) in light of the Federal mandate for the railroads to implement Positive Train Control (PTC).
The LA&SL line east from Los Angeles (CA) gets on trackage rights (over the BNSF) at Riverside, crosses the Sunset Route at Colton, and gets off the BNSF at Daggett, and crew changes at Yermo (meaning desert in Spanish). There are two-tracks eastward, with a slow speed universal crossover at CP C164 EAST YERMO and at Mineola Rd., the latter conveniently identified as CP C166 MINEOLA.
Northbound (eastbound), the exit off the I-15 Freeway near East Yermo was taken, and at East Yermo and Mineola Rd. nothing new or unusual was seen. Just for the record, some views by CP C166 MINEOLA: Looking eastbound.
Westward:
After a westbound train crosses over, a train sitting on Main 1 east of the CP starts to come and crosses Mineola Rd.
Continued in Part II
----------
A side tidbit: The first photo above is highly blown-up below. Besides going up a sort of bump, the track centers are wider in the foreground than in the background, especially with the left track.
That closer together track section in the distance is where the Toomey siding was up till around 35 years ago, until when this section was two-tracked circa 1980.
Part II (of I-X)
The train is a military move, and likely will terminate soon nearby.
Above, way on the background right (eastbound) is the end of two-tracks, at CP C168 TOOMEY.
Here still at Mineola Rd. is the universal crossover arrangement’s rather large CP box.
A northward view on Mineola Rd.:
In this stretch there are three CP’s within a four to five mile distance.
All the CP’s have lower speed, 30 M.P.H. crossovers except the last one, at CP C0168 TOOMEY, which has a sole 40 M.P.H. turnout.
Continued in Part III
Part III (of I-X)
We arrive at CP C168 TOOMEY (M.P. 168.7). Here NEW signals have been erected.
The west side eastbound signals:
Above, because CP C168 TOOMEY’s turnout is for 40 M.P.H, a ‘red over’ type signal is used. Main 1 turns into the Main (east), which track is Main 2 towards the west.
A longer (more telephoto) view:
That top head: It is different than most of the past in that it is practically hoodless, but only has a small shade cover.
A north side view looking southish:
Above, note the new signal ballast on the lower part of the photo.
Continued in Part IV
Part IV (of I-X)
The east side CP C168 TOOMEY, looking westbound: Everything is by the old, original Highway before the nearby I-15 Freeway was built (which was decades ago).
The electrical box is new too.
A couple of miles to the railroad east are the first intermediate set. Eastbound is to the left.
Just above, the east side westbound signal has a lower lamp, for yellow over yellow; the turnout route ahead back at CP C168 TOOMEY.
Continued in Part V
Part V (of I-X)
A closer view
The terrain is basically flat, rising slightly to the east (left).
Looking eastbound:
Before the lower east side westbound head and new mast was erected, a flashing yellow was display in advance of a red over green at CP SP C168 TOMMEY with the old signals. The sequence was green, flashing yellow, and red over green. Now, it is flashing yellow, yellow over yellow, and red over green. The new signal has actually slowed the railroad down, adding another block at 40 M.P.H.
(An odd quirk for 40 M.P.H. turnouts is that the newer second signal in advance is very uninformative. At the turnout the signal could be red over red, OR red over green. What is an engineer supposed to prepare for?)
Continued in Part VI
Part VI (of I-X)
This is the Harvard Road grade crossing, at M.P. 174.20.
Like much of the Sunset Route now, UP E’s and DDA40X with a passenger train in tow can go 79 M.P.H. Freight geared power are limited to 70 M.P.H. K.P. has seen freights max out in this area at 73 M.P.H., which is probably the practical capable limit
From here an effort was made to go further east, to the Manix siding, but unfortunately, the surface road was closed, and the I-15 Freeway had to be driven to go further east, to the Field siding.
Continued in Part VII
Part VII (of I-X)
Once we arrive at Field on the LA&SL Cima Subdivision a most fascinating situation is observed at CP C183 FIELD (M.P. 182.9) that could have repercussions for future signaling on the Sunset Route.
In the first photo above, the lower head only has one light. K.P. was right there in person and didn’t realize that, and he looked right at it a number of times and it just didn’t sink in!
Continued in Part VIII
Part VIII (of I-X)
The east side westbound LOWER head, even though it is on an absolute signal, ONLY has one lamp, NOT the customary two for sidings!
It is highly unlikely it would normally display red over dark, and red over yellow to go into the siding. More likely is red over red, with red over flashing red to go into the siding!
(Update: Another new signal of like format was photographed on Cima Hill Monday, September 7, 2015, and, while the signal was yet to be put in service, its heads were not facing trains but turned aside, the lamps were seen to be lit red over red!)
UP may be rushing matters, and cutting corners drastically, hence, reducing initial cost outlays in trying to get things in order for Positive Train Control.
On the Sunset Route several years ago when the section at Red Rock, AZ was two-tracked, UP retained the Red Rock siding. As seen below, a red over red, red over flashing red, OR red over yellow can be displayed (foreground left signal).
So, undoubtedly, the signal at Field displays red over flashing red to go into the siding. But, that needs to be field checked. Field checking the Field siding sounds weird.
Continued in Part IX
Part IX (of I-X)
The CP box at Field (reshown photo within this series) appears to be another model or from a different manufacturer, and looked noticeably smaller than most, but that may have been an illusion. Of course, the lack of doors can’t be an illusion …
Above, notice the air conditioner position, AND the CP placard location.
Some previously shown photos for comparison:
December 15, 2013: CP SP876 ESTRELLA, between Gila Bend and Maricopa, AZ
August 15, 2015 – Yuma, AZ
October 5, 2012: Willcox, AZ
So, since UP seems to be skimping now, will they also skimp on the Sunset Route two-tracking with barebones on both CP boxes and signaling, i.e., red over flashing reds regardless if a siding is occupied or not?
Continued in Part X
Part X (of I-X)
Some final views of eastern Field in a setting sun atmosphere:
This will conclude the series. As mentioned above, Cima Hill was visited, and UP was actually putting in the new signals thereat. Because of that, some things signal-wise can now be said more definitively-wise. Watch for a post series on that in the next several days.
However, additional related material is below.
Red over a Lower Flashing Red to Go into a Siding …
… Historically Is NOT as Radical …
… as it First Appears
On the MAINLINE red, yellow (plus later flashing yellow), and green signals have been pretty consistent over the years. Siding indications are a different story.
Fifty to seventy years ago a red over green was for a clear siding and red over yellow was for an occupied siding. So, even though the end of the siding had a red signal, a red over green was seen often for trains going into such a siding. As things evolved red over lunar eventually superseded red over yellow … When K.P. was a kid, he can remember seeing that red over green to go into a siding. Then UP siding signals started displaying red over lunar, whether the siding was occupied or not. Around 1980 (at least when K.P. got wind of it), red over yellow was for a clear siding, and red over lunar was for an occupied siding.
That red over was pretty much the standard for years. Now UP is using red over flashing red ONLY for entering a siding (at least on the LA&SL). That is comparable to the red over lunar of decades ago. So, when looked at in a timeline sense, UP’s present red over flashing red is not as radical as it first appears, as red over lunar meant the same thing years ago. Why UP keeps going back and forth from helpful indications (to train crews) to unhelpful ones to helpful ones again is not known, but it may have to do with maximizing profits. By using a red over flashing red now, the capital needed for the Positive Train Control conversion is reduced (the el cheapo approach), and as time progresses and additions funds can be put towards the effort, the signals can be upgraded, so that a red over yellow can be displayed again instead of red over flashing red. That makes sense, but yesteryear that was cheap to do with target signals. With color lights heads, at least with UP’s, if nothing else at least a shield and hood has to be replaced. UP’s present signal lamp housings seem to be modular and can be stacked, for one to four (or more) lamps.
Anyway, the cheap red over flashing red may be what is happening and possibly why, to reduce initial PTC costs. The evolving situation may be merely another episode of history repeating itself.
Note: Metrolink's "Perris Valley Line" page on their website does not show the station on Marlborough, only Hunter Park. Nothing newsworthy seen at UP 91 freeway except a fence.
Update as of Sunday, September 6, 2015
Headway #1 (of 1-3)
The LA&SL Bridge over the 91 Freeway
Riverside, CA
The painting tan of the second new railroad bridge over the 91 Freeway in Riverside is almost complete.
As seen above, the final grading leading to the new bridge hasn’t been done yet.
In the BNSF Maintenance-of-Way Yard
Highgrove, CA
South (railroad west) of those three railroad truss bridges over the I-215 Freeway …
… at the BNSF Maintenance Yard (out of view on the left above), with the visible spur going to it on the left was something K.P. has never seen before.
About 30 crate-like boxes, a few wrapped in plastic, with unknown contents within them. It is unknown if those crates are related to putting a third track through those truss bridges or for something else.
Continued in Headway #2
Headway #2 (of 1-3)
Related to those Truss Bridges
Grand Terrance, CA
During the making or putting together of those railroad truss bridges that eventually were put over the now widened I-215 Freeway, an Ames owned red crane was used.
Even though the freeway widening project is basically finished (or at least almost so) the Ames Yard is still in use, and the red crane is still in that yard.
Just above, the crane (right) is in view of the now in place truss bridges (left).
Thru-Freights Salt Lake City-Los Angeles
Colton, CA
Many Sunset Route trains are routed via the alternate Sunset Route through Riverside and Highgrove, and traverse through those truss bridges. Conversely, LA&SL trains to or from Las Vegas, NV (and Salt Lake City, UT) get on the Sunset Route between Colton and Pomona (sometimes Los Angeles), and avoid the original route that is nine miles longer.
On the above date, K.P. saw something he has not seen for years and years: A westbound UP train from Salt Lake City to Los Angeles did NOT take the shorter Sunset Route, but instead it went straight through Colton to Riverside like the LA&SL had done for years before the merger with SP!
That may (“may”) be a precursor for things to come. It may actually be quicker to take the nine miles longer LA&SL route, and avoid congestion on the single-track Palmdale Cutoff, transitioning on either of two routes at very slow speed in Colton, or from the single-track SP Colton-Pomona.
Also, because of the rather drastic reduction on the Central Corridor of coal trains because of environmental reasons, UP may have concluded routing Chicago-Los Angeles trains via the Central Corridor and the LA&SL would be a way to partially save some of the enormous investment on triple-tracking through North Plate, NE.
There will be more on this in the Cima Hill presentation hopefully Monday.
The Laurel Ave. Underpass
The bridging over the underpass appears to be ready for trains and relaying of track on it! Matter of fact one of the three rerouted mains has been eliminated.
Continued in Headway #3
Headway #3 (of 1-3)
More views:
The shoofly (lower left) and those New Jersey commuter cars:
K.P. is unsure if the Metrolink track with the New Jersey cars was redone (because of the underpass construction), or has always had such an incline. Maybe the incline is actually level. K.P. doesn’t know. The grade of the landscape generally lowers as it mostly southwardly approaches the camera.
This will conclude the series.
On some free time on a crazy dispatch Thursday, September 10, 2015, the Clay Street and Riverside Ave. underpass construction sites in Riverside (CA) were visited. The findings will probably be presented after the Cima Hill material and how it may be related to the Sunset Route.
K. P. Harrier . Fifty to seventy years ago a red over green was for a clear siding and red over yellow was for an occupied siding. So, even though the end of the siding had a red signal, a red over green was seen often for trains going into such a siding. As things evolved red over lunar eventually superseded red over yellow … When K.P. was a kid, he can remember seeing that red over green to go into a siding. Then UP siding signals started displaying red over lunar, whether the siding was occupied or not. Around 1980 (at least when K.P. got wind of it), red over yellow was for a clear siding, and red over lunar was for an occupied siding. That red over was pretty much the standard for years. Now UP is using red over flashing red ONLY for entering a siding (at least on the LA&SL). That is comparable to the red over lunar of decades ago. So, when looked at in a timeline sense, UP’s present red over flashing red is not as radical as it first appears, as red over lunar meant the same thing years ago. Why UP keeps going back and forth from helpful indications (to train crews) to unhelpful ones to helpful ones again is not known, but it may have to do with maximizing profits. By using a red over flashing red now, the capital needed for the Positive Train Control conversion is reduced (the el cheapo approach), and as time progresses and additions funds can be put towards the effort, the signals can be upgraded, so that a red over yellow can be displayed again instead of red over flashing red. That makes sense, but yesteryear that was cheap to do with target signals. With color lights heads, at least with UP’s, if nothing else at least a shield and hood has to be replaced. UP’s present signal lamp housings seem to be modular and can be stacked, for one to four (or more) lamps. Anyway, the cheap red over flashing red may be what is happening and possibly why, to reduce initial PTC costs. The evolving situation may be merely another episode of history repeating itself.
.
One must remember that years ago, and on some railroads it still might be true, that red over yellow was a Restricting signal. (Our cab signal aspect for restricting still reflects this. The aspect is red over yellow.) Today, for purposes of this discussion, that would be red over lunar or red over flashing red. It all means the same thing, where the siding is bonded something is showing an occupancy, proceed prepared to stop, etc. Where a siding isn't bonded, the signal doesn't know if there is or isn't an occupancy, proceed prepared to stop, etc. Like someone else previously said, a restricting signal is the best you can receive to enter an unbonded siding.
I'm not sure that the change away from lunar to flashing red has much to do with PTC. Some signal locations have had such changes before the PTC law was passed. Usually, instead of going out in the field and just making a change doesn't happen. Changes usually occur when a complete new signal is installed. I think they would eventually like to get away from the lunar aspect completely. I know of a place that once had a flashing red restricting if you were lined onto signaled (main, in this case with a train ahead) track or a lunar if you were lined onto unsignaled (into a yard) track. I think it had been changed to flashing red no matter which route is lined the last time I was there. I haven't been there in a couple years.
KP:
I keep returning to your photo of the Northward view of the Mineola Road crossing....it looks almost like a painting. Very cool. Thanks!
-John
jeffhergert K. P. Harrier . Fifty to seventy years ago a red over green was for a clear siding and red over yellow was for an occupied siding. So, even though the end of the siding had a red signal, a red over green was seen often for trains going into such a siding. As things evolved red over lunar eventually superseded red over yellow … When K.P. was a kid, he can remember seeing that red over green to go into a siding. Then UP siding signals started displaying red over lunar, whether the siding was occupied or not. Around 1980 (at least when K.P. got wind of it), red over yellow was for a clear siding, and red over lunar was for an occupied siding. That red over was pretty much the standard for years. Now UP is using red over flashing red ONLY for entering a siding (at least on the LA&SL). That is comparable to the red over lunar of decades ago. So, when looked at in a timeline sense, UP’s present red over flashing red is not as radical as it first appears, as red over lunar meant the same thing years ago. Why UP keeps going back and forth from helpful indications (to train crews) to unhelpful ones to helpful ones again is not known, but it may have to do with maximizing profits. By using a red over flashing red now, the capital needed for the Positive Train Control conversion is reduced (the el cheapo approach), and as time progresses and additions funds can be put towards the effort, the signals can be upgraded, so that a red over yellow can be displayed again instead of red over flashing red. That makes sense, but yesteryear that was cheap to do with target signals. With color lights heads, at least with UP’s, if nothing else at least a shield and hood has to be replaced. UP’s present signal lamp housings seem to be modular and can be stacked, for one to four (or more) lamps. Anyway, the cheap red over flashing red may be what is happening and possibly why, to reduce initial PTC costs. The evolving situation may be merely another episode of history repeating itself. One must remember that years ago, and on some railroads it still might be true, that red over yellow was a Restricting signal. (Our cab signal aspect for restricting still reflects this. The aspect is red over yellow.) Today, for purposes of this discussion, that would be red over lunar or red over flashing red. It all means the same thing, where the siding is bonded something is showing an occupancy, proceed prepared to stop, etc. Where a siding isn't bonded, the signal doesn't know if there is or isn't an occupancy, proceed prepared to stop, etc. Like someone else previously said, a restricting signal is the best you can receive to enter an unbonded siding. I'm not sure that the change away from lunar to flashing red has much to do with PTC. Some signal locations have had such changes before the PTC law was passed. Usually, instead of going out in the field and just making a change doesn't happen. Changes usually occur when a complete new signal is installed. I think they would eventually like to get away from the lunar aspect completely. I know of a place that once had a flashing red restricting if you were lined onto signaled (main, in this case with a train ahead) track or a lunar if you were lined onto unsignaled (into a yard) track. I think it had been changed to flashing red no matter which route is lined the last time I was there. I haven't been there in a couple years. Jeff
Jeff,
FWIW, somewhere I read (or heard) that concern about false indications such as caused by a broken vane or a broken lens led to the movement away from the lunar aspect over time.
Signal Conversions on LA&SL’s Cima Hill …
... and What It Could Mean for the Sunset Route
Part “A” (of A-H, Overall A-P)
This presentation will generally be on an east to west basis, and will focus on the stretch between Cima (pronounced cee-ma, as in Aunt Je-mi-MA; at the top of the hill) and Kelso (to the west and the bottom of the hill), both in California. K.P. went into Nevada, but the signal conversion had not reached that far eastward yet. The photo trip was on Monday, September 7, 2015
However, at Prison Rd. in Jean, NV, the grade crossing devices seemed immaculate, as if the crossing gates had been changed out in advance of the signal revamping.
Above, a casino(s) is in the background.
The basic Jean area, from Prison Rd., looking westbound (south):
From the Searchlight exit area (NOT in the signal sense, but an actual location) of the I-15 Freeway, what had been expected to be a quick hour roundtrip to where the tracks could be viewed at Jean and a return made turned into a three hour nightmare! A freeway crawling at 10 M.P.H. because of the holiday traffic!
Afterwards, K.P. did not make side trips to the tracks here and there, but went straight to Cima.
At Cima a brand new, not installed yet, tilting CP box a few hundred feet from the installation site was glaringly seen.
That box on ONE side has an abbreviated ID placard.
Continued in Part B
Part “B” (of A-H, Overall A-P)
K.P. first encountered an abbreviated placarded box recently in Bakersfield on July 17, 2015 on a major revamping of that area and adding additional trackage thereat. That Mojave Sub line runs over Tehachapi to West Colton Yard (Colton, CA) on the Sunset Route.
So, apparently, new boxes have abbreviated placards on one end, and the full CP info and name on the other end.
The other end of the tilled, not installed CP box in Cima:
It is not clear yet if the full placard CP designation will face the track or approaching the siding from single-track.
Continued in Part C
Part “C” (of A-H, Overall A-P)
Nearby (right), signal material was staged.
Continued in Part D
Part “D” (of A-H, Overall A-P)
Just to broaden the mind of those unfamiliar with the town of Cima, a view looking east:
Above, the ‘siding’ is the left track; and the right track is as religious mysteries … It is both Main 2 AND a south siding! Figure that one out …
Looking westbound: From left to right, that religious whatever track, Main 1, and the north siding.
Above, around the curve in the background the grade lowers dramatically.
The north siding’s west end:
Continued in Part E
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