Replies
jeffhergert (10-19):
You’ve come to the same conclusion that I have, that the “!” timetable symbol is more or less generic for a 30 M.P.H. siding turnout, WITH exceptions, and those exceptions takes away from the certainty of what trainmen reference in timetables.
Confusion and uncertainty eventually manifests itself in some type of undesirable event, though I suspect that in the situation under discussion years and years may transpire before a manifestation arises and the National Transportation Safety Board gets involved … Maybe one of the great wizards that heads the railroad will somehow perceive a loose end is present, and make things more uniform, as so very simple as it would be to do.
John Simpkins-Camp (10-22):
After pondering the separate high sides that were added to that non-UP desert bridge over I-15 north of Victorville, CA, that are not part of the weight distribution engineering, since the bridge seems to double as a track bridge and a vehicle crossing method for the public, I’m inclined to believe the high add-ons are in place to prevent unscrupulous fools and pranksters from dropping things onto freeway motorists below.
That is an interesting question about the abnormal, disproportionate size of the new railroad bridge over the 91 Freeway in Riverside being for derailment protection. That would make for an interesting study in itself. But, between the rails derailment rails should be sufficient. If an incident got past the simplicity of that, I’m on totally uncharted waters and sort of in the Twilight Zone on that, but I fear the worst.
ccltrains (10-24 / 10-24A):
Yes, I don’t think hot slag would be a problem either with the freeway bridge over I-15 north of Victorville. (Funny) I think what the desert line transports is cement related, and I’m not sure such a transported substance would need those high bridge sidings.
As far as that East Texas-Louisiana Rail Coalition, the handout sounds positive and like the effort is headed by competent organizers. On all such efforts I always wonder if getting federal funds into an area or region isn’t part of the motive. Again, I know little about that area, but suspect train volume is such that UP would welcome the additional revenue such an effort would bring.
billio (10-25):
Yes, about 7 miles of two-track basically jives with what I see, but only about 4 miles is new second-track, with the other 3 miles as track already existing, such as the North Ontario siding.
Technically, the North Ontario siding’s east switch is WEST of Bon View Ave., whereas the new end of two-tracks will be a couple of blocks EAST of Bon View Ave.
And, you are welcome …
MikeF90 (10-27):
I think your reply to billio was right on. Great assessment!
rdamon (10-28 / 10-31):
The City of Ontario buying up all those houses makes sense.
UP seems to own the land from their tracks to Main St., but I have no idea what could be put in there.
Thanks for the link.
It has been so hectic this past week that passing the 300 thread pages mark totally escaped this contributor … I hope escaping that milestone wasn’t because I’m too over the hill …
SP657E44 (10-31):
As mentioned to rdamon just above, I have no idea what could be put in there.
Maybe an expanded west coast dispatch center? Maybe some offices in the City of Industry will be moved to some new offices built in the Ontario mystery area?
I’m all eyes and ears on this one.
John Simpkins-Camp (10-31):
Message heard. Thanks.
Some very helpful thread followers have made some enlightening contributions too, and they deserve a thank you hand as well …
Denveroutlaws06 (11-1):
As far as how long those departure tracks are, I have no specific data. Maybe someone at the forum has an official word on that. A cursory estimate, however, is that they are probably 8000 feet long.
But, Denveroutlaws06, you are welcome to enter the Twilight Zone! A little history and contemporary aspects are in order, if you can bear with this …
When West Colton Yard was first built in 1973, the Departure Yard extended from Riverside Ave. to Pepper Ave., only about a mile. It was a freakish arrangement where railcars in the Departure Yard would extend into the Bowl Tracks. So, the tail ends of ready to depart trains often were hidden, and took on a mysterious Twilight Zone kind of aspect.
Enter UP. Things were rearranged, and four-tracks extended west on the south side of the Bowl Tracks.
But, because tail ends of trains were still not readily visible to onlookers, the Twilight Zone aspect continued.
Aerials of those four tracks:
AERIAL LINK: The West End of the Departure Tracks, South of the Bowl
AERIAL LINK: By Pepper Ave.: The East End of the Departure Tracks
Years ago, the areas of West Colton Yard were clear and obvious, the Receiving Yard, the Hump, and the Departure Yard. Now, things overlap, and have a certain Rubik’s Cube effect on the mind, though simple as the place is
Deggesty (11-1):
An insurance approved body shop repair place gave us a quote of $5200 and three weeks. Yikes!
A source advises there has been NO “General Order” “Mile Post Equations” issued concerning the Colton Flyover. In other words, while the swinging of the track to the north, up and over, and back down to the original alignment is present, the additional distance hardly makes a dent in added mileage, so nothing is officially listed for equations. Railroads typically use tenths of a mile with such equations, and the added mileage at Colton is hardly a drop in a bucket, so to speak.
In the Cienega Creek area of Arizona, when Main 2 was rerouted via a shorter way …
… there was a big differential, and the railroad circulated the equation M.P. 1021.9 = 1023.0.
mvs (11-2):
You linked a great, very informative article related to the PHIMF trash trains and current happening. I did NOT like, as you probably didn’t either, that the trash trains won’t be running for at least five more years. Oh, well. At least we know what is happening.
MikeF90 (11-2):
Your reasoning about the mysterious newer CP AL525 GUASTI box at Colton, CA has given the forum much to chew on, including for K.P. to chew on. You posted, “Unlikely that partial two tracking [eastward] would end there [i.e., the east switch of the Guasti siding] instead of Etiwanda Ave.” You know, Mike, I tend to agree with you now on that. But, after thinking about this for a while, some surprising (“surprising”) conclusions were reached.
First, though, a thought or two about more expensive signal bridges. It is my understanding that UP contributed funds for the Diversion in Pomona, the Milliken Ave. Flyover, the Colton Flyover, etc. Part of those funds was earmarked for expenses the railroad would incur in the project, like necessary track and new signals. Thus, it would be to the railroad’s benefit to make purchases as expensive as possible. Interestingly, a rash of expensive signal bridges has sprung up.
Now, about that mysterious CP AL525 GUASTI signal box (destined for placement by the the Milliken Ave. Flyover) presently at the Colton Signal Dept. across from the Colton Flyover in Colton … What could railroad-contributed funds be used for at the Milliken Ave. Flyover? If (“if”) the railroad extended the Guasti siding eastward over the Milliken Ave. Flyover, a new CP box would be needed in the east slope area, around M.P. 526 (below, lower half of photo).
A CP box with “525” on it (instead of “526”) would be less confusing to auditors, and insure proper accounting entries.
Accounting-wise, that would conform to proper practices after the mainline and siding were laid over the flyover and operational. Then, when the SECOND MAINLINE track is finally laid and operational east to Etiwanda Ave. (where a new CP is supposed to be put in at), the new CP AL525 GUASTI box would no longer be needed. Obviously, the railroad’s contribution to the Milliken Ave. Flyover, i.e., the CP box and signals, would be able to be recycled, so that the railroad kind of would kill two birds with one stone. Brilliant, I would say.
Moreover, all the areas where the railroad may have been called upon to contribute money for various projects signal bridges (either full or the cantilever type) were utilized. Just coincidental or was it genius accounting?
That’s my opinion, Mike. Since the Alhambra Sub Pomona-Ontario two-tracking is winding down right now, and the Milliken Ave. Flyover is finished, in theory, the east switch of the Guasti siding on the WEST side of the Milliken Ave. Flyover should soon come to be on the EAST side of the flyover. That now seems the most logical explanation for the mysterious CP AL525 GUASTI box at Colton. After all, it did show up in Colton about the time the Milliken Ave. Flyover began to be constructed.
Take care, Mike, and all,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Ontario airport west : not buildings, track and I cannot find the map that shows the connector (SP west to UP east) and I don't know if it's still part of their grand plan.
Riverside : The bridge sides are taller because they're spanning a larger gap - it's a proportional thing. The one above Victorville is Southwest Portland Cement's rail and road - their haul road parallels the line from the plant to the mine and is used to move equipment both directions. I followed a train up once that was rocking so hard you could see light UNDER the wheels .... Technically it's a private roadway but is was fun to play "caboose" over the I-15 bridge.
The Unexpected and the Clock
As had been expected, K.P. was in San Bernardino, CA Monday, November 4, 2013. The assignment lasted only about 30 minutes on site (ending about 11:45 A.M PacificTime) and everything else thereafter was all free time. Three specific Sunset Route areas to check out were on the agenda: (1) the Hunts Lane overpass construction (Colton-San Bernardino), (2) the new Track 112 track laying and the future new diamonds (Colton), and (3) reports of two-tracking activity in the Ontario-Pomona area. Less than 30 photos were anticipated to be taken in all that. Sweet and simple! And quick! But, so many unexpected things were found, including never before seen current photo angles for the forum …
… that KP ended up parking the vehicle at 9:00 P.M. at night with 220 photos stored in the camera’s memory!
Thus, a TWO part* presentation is currently in development, and should be post-ready in a day or two.
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* Technically, “group.” (Edited)
Update as of Monday, November 4, 2013
New Things for Hours
Colton to Pomona, CA
This presentation will be in two groups, Parts A-J today, and Parts K-R tomorrow, Friday, November 8, 2013 by Noon Pacific Time.
Part “A” (of A-J, Overall A-R)
We start at the Waterman Ave. overpass (over the Sunset Route) in the southern area of San Bernardino, looking south. The Hunts Lane overpass construction is maybe about a half mile to the west (right).
The now closed Hunts Lane was at M.P. 541.02, and pier-work is now underway there.
Above, the LEFT, south pier is right by the Ice Deck siding. Below is a telephoto of the south pier construction.
So, conceivably, Ice Deck #2 could be extended east (towards the camera) on the south (left) side.
Continued in Part B
Part “B” (of A-J, Overall A-R)
But, the RIGHT, north pier is away from the current two main tracks!
So, a third track here could be laid north (above photo, right) of the present Main 1, which third-track would align with the Colton Flyover’s present trackless, future third-track alignment (left). The below eastward view from Rancho Ave. was previously shown.
To put a third-track in, however, would entail adding to the Santa Ana River bridge (westward views previously shown).
(In the first photo in this Part B, note how high up the just right of center antenna is! Oh, the famous windy days …)
Continued in Part C
Part “C” (of A-J, Overall A-R)
From the Waterman Ave. overpass still, looking west, the north pier-work:
At ground level now, looking south at an all cleared away Hunts Lane.
Continued in Part D
Part “D” (of A-J, Overall A-R)
At 9th Street where eastbound I-10 Freeway on and off ramps are located, the east onramp has had a parking place put in in view of the Colton Flyover.
9th Street has had a chain link gated fence erected.
Continued in Part E
Part “E” (of A-J, Overall A-R)
Note on the far left of that above mentioned fence is a short 90-degree fence section, as below.
Note also that fencing is also in the below background left.
Continued in Part F
Part “F” (of A-J, Overall A-R)
Looking south through the near fence, the old sidewalk and fire hydrant is seen. Their future is unclear. What if the fire department needed to quickly hook up a hose? Does it even work anymore?
Looking west:
Continued in Part G
Part “G” (of A-J, Overall A-R)
At the east-west Valley Blvd. looking northward (eastbound) at BNSF’s CP29 GONZLES with the temporary target pot signals while the masts and cantilever structures thereat are in transition to color lights.
In the lull in trains on the Transcon, welders had “Track and Time.”
Another relatively high up antenna:
Continued in Part H
Part “H” (of A-J, Overall A-R)
What do we have here? NO FENCE! Nor a “NO TRESSING” or “KEEP OUT” sign. Hmmm. Let’s go in for a look …
Looking southwest:
Looking west between the Colton Flyover and I-10.
Looking east:
Continued in Part I
Part “I” (of A-J, Overall A-R)
A telephoto looking east, with the La Cadena Dr. underpass railing in view (center). That Colton Flyover construction project office is on the left.
Looking south: BNSF Main 3 signal (right), and the Mt. Vernon Connector (background left)
Looking southeast under I-10:
Just above, years ago there was an AT&SF-SP transfer track that curved through here in the northeast quadrant of Colton Crossing.
Continued in Part J
Part “J” (of A-J, Overall A-R)
Looking north under I-10.
The north side westbound BNSF color light signals (Main 3 on left, Main 1 on right):
Looking southwest at the old, still in place UP Sunset Route-BNSF Transcon diamonds.
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Continued in Parts K-R that is scheduled to be presented by Noon, Friday, November 8, 2013, dealing with more Colton Flyover area happenings and the two-tracking in the Ontario-Pomona area.
New flange-bearing diamonds sitting near old diamonds, ramp pieces for the FBDs sitting a couple hundred feet south along the BNSF at the corner of the dirt alleys behind the houses SW of the former crossing.
A10
Part “K” (of K-R, Overall A-R)
South of the Colton Flyover, along the BNSF Trancon, strange, black insulated joint-like items and upside down, squarish, metalwork is on ties.
A northward view of the BNSF Colton Crossing signals so the forum can get the general area of those odd items.
Continued in Part L
Part “L” (of K-R, Overall A-R)
From South 4th Street looking east, a contractor’s or worker’s vehicle is by much rail-work and ballast.
Apparently by the signal protecting the BNSF, concrete ties change to wood ties (lower left corner).
A few long concrete ties for a manual switch stand.
Continued in Part M
Part “M” (of K-R, Overall A-R)
That future switch throw in relation to the BNSF Connector (center) and the Transcon (right):
The crosser switch is starting to form.
Continued in Part N
Part “N” (of K-R, Overall A-R)
4th Street’s end now has an unusual group of rocks laid out.
Maintenance-of-way vehicles are more heavy duty and the rocks may not be a problem, but locals certainly would be discouraged from driving trackside.
A train of empty well cars passes (away from the camera).
I-10’s electric sign apparently was being tested, and displayed a semi-checker board pattern.
Continued in Part O
Part “O” (of K-R, Overall A-R)
Now we move over to Ontario in very diminishing sunlight, looking east from Bon View Ave. at the new CP and switch that is now in place.
Looking west, the North Ontario old siding switch is still in place and Main 2 (left) not connected yet.
When K.P. got to between Vine Ave. and San Antonio Ave. (Ontario), a bunch of activity was taking place.
Continued in Part P
Part “P” (of K-R, Overall A-R)
More eastward views:
Continued in Part Q
Part “Q” (of K-R, Overall A-R)
Another eastward view: Note the track with the track equipment on it as it alignment shifts from wide centers (foreground) to normal siding centers (background) in a swooping manner.
This view was shot Monday, October 21, 2013 and previously shown soon after the siding was severed from the mainline and the angling difference between them was severe.
Above, there is quite a difference now … from severe angle to swooping.
Even the south side street was being watered.
The gentlemen in the water truck turned off the spray of water when passing by K.P. and his auto on the public street.
Continued in Part R
Part “R” (of K-R, Overall A-R)
Then, all the equipment headed west to a tie down spot for the night.
Just west of San Antonio Ave. seemed to be the parking spot for the night.
At Monte Vista Ave. workers were tying up too.
At San Antonio Ave. in Pomona, in darkening light, it could be seen that the new Main 2 from the east still had not been connected to the old trackage on the west.
This will conclude the series.
-----------
Update of an update: On Thursday, November 7, 2013 unexpected circumstances again brought K.P. to San Bernardino, but beforehand the Colton Flyover area was quickly passed through, but nothing obvious stood out as new. It was as if everyone was gone for a week. It is known schedules call for workers to work seven or eight long days straight, and then have seven to eight days off.
K P,
The first photo in part K appears (APPEARS) to part of a "One way low speed" (OWLS) diamond.
Norm
Norm48327K P, The first photo in part K appears (APPEARS) to part of a "One way low speed" (OWLS) diamond.
Good eye! I just noticed higher angle pictures of these parts on another site.
Back to 'North Ontario', it is puzzling that the former siding signals now appear to be OOS but they haven't been physically removed; the signal dept usually wants to keep expensive equipment away from the heavy roving track machines!
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
It also looks like they are at a 90 degree angle. I think the original drawing had them at a slight angle.
KP
That group of rocks at 4th st looks like an attempt to appease the Stormwater Police. The idea is to knock mud and dirt off vehicle tires before the vehicle enters the street so as to keep the dirt out of the storm drains. After it rains you will notice that it is not very effective but its the law.
Norm48327 (11-8):
Your thought about the possibility of One-Way Low Speed (OWLS) diamonds being installed at Colton Crossing is a most fascinating possibility. Your post caused others to comment, even linking a photo from another website. Unless those photos from another website were taken by railroaders or those associated with the project that are authorized to be there, I’m inclined to believe those that took the photos have more guts than I do, because “No Trespassing” signs are everywhere, and one can see them from public streets. Nevertheless, one photo clearly shows a future OWLS diamonds arrangement at Colton Crossing. The photo at this TRAINS website that you, Norm48327, commented on seems to show parts that may be related to those OWNS diamonds.
Whatever the case, the townspeople are in for a quiet not seen since before the California Southern (ATSF) first crossed the Southern Pacific (SP) with a diamond on September 13, 1883, just over 130 years ago!
Some links about OWLS:
LINK: One seller's explanation
LINK: Wikipedia Photo
LINK: Wikipedia article (Scroll down to "One-Way Low-Speed diamond frog")
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MikeF90 (11-8)
Thanks for that link to another website, with “higher angle pictures.”.
Concerning a different area, those seemingly ‘out of service’ signals in Ontario were not turned aside because they were still functional. While in my vehicle, a train came, and those signals WERE lit, alive, and well still.
rdamon (11-8):
The original drawings DID have a UP angled crossing of the BNSF. Interestingly, the old Mt. Vernon Connector was on a generally east-west axis (but slightly off), and official diagrams from a few years ago showed it that way under the new, projected arrangement.
Things apparently chanced, for the new laying of the Mt. Vernon Connector turned at a rather pronounced angle (center track on previously shown below photo) …
… and Track 112 angled off at the far right switches towards that photo’s bottom left.
That angled Track 112 is on a more severe angle than previous official diagrams had shown, and will turn and cross the BNSF on 90 degree OWLS type diamonds. That all is new to K.P., but one cannot argue with a referred to photo (memo above) that shows 90 degree future diamonds onsite! (See above photo, lower left.)
Super Hunky (11-8):
A thought-provoking concept! Theoretically, more of such should spring up … and soon. It will be interesting to see if they do.
Best,
K.P.,
I wasn't able to find your original posting, but as I recall, the reason for the angled crossings was an effort to reduce noise. Now that the OWLS-type crossings have been in service elsewhere, and apparently proving their worth, there may have been a decision to use them at Colton Crossing. Exactly why, I don't know. Simplicity? Maintenance? Availability?
John Timm
Desertdog,
They save wear and tear on the heavily traveled mainline. There's one near me, and before it was installed the welding crew was frequently making repairs on the old one.
Special Posting No. 1
A 4-8-8-4 and the Sunset Route Two-Tracking
As many know, Union Pacific steam people have been in the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds (Fairplex) in Pomona, CA preparing to move Big Boy UP 4014 to Cheyenne, WY. Reportedly, Saturday, November 9, 2013 it was moved out from the historical group’s chain link fence area. The below photo was taken Sunday, November 10, 2013.
Just above, the background right parking lot (seen under the tents) was packed, as an ‘event’ was scheduled not associate with No. 4014.
Reportedly, too, in the next few days, a short section of panel track will be repeatedly laid, run over, and taken up and relayed, so that the steamer is eventually by the Metrolink mainline. There it will sit until an unknown sometime in the future when the Metrolink mainline will be severed, moved over to the 4-8-8-4, and an engine from UP will hookup to it and pull it to the Bassett area, where there is a connection to the Sunset Route. Likely the move on Metrolink will be done in the midnight hours when no commuter trains run, maybe (“maybe”) even on a Sunday.. Afterward, it is unknown if the Big Boy will be pulled forward to West Colton Yard, or sit at Bassett for a few days.
Whenever it moves east from Bassett it right away will traverse the Up and Over (a flyover, previously shown photo that looks eastbound) in the City of Industry …
… on its way to Pomona, where two-tracking is currently taking place to Ontario. Then, from Ontario it is single track and a few sidings a short ways to West Colton Yard, where it will have further preparation likely for several days for the move to Cheyenne, WY.
So, the City of Industry to Colton section of the Sunset Route may have more focus on it that normal, and in a number of ways.
Steamer UP 4014 and the Rest of the Day
While K.P. was in the area … He checked out the Pomona to Ontario Alhambra Sub Sunset Route two-tracking. Nothing new stood out, except an in assembly future switch west of Sultana Ave. in Ontario on the LA&SL Los Angeles Sub for the future revamping of CP C038 ONTARIO.
In a few days a short posting series on the Pomona to Ontario findings will be presented to the forum. Between the UP 4014 and the Pomona to Ontario two-tracking, only 55 photos were taken. So, an upcoming “Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates” series won’t be very long. But, a question for the forum: Is there sufficient interest to warrant a new 4014 updates thread for sharing what is known, or is there sufficient information circulating that everyone already knows everything needed?
Continued in Special Posting No. 2
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