https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnN4nQhSYn0&lc=z23li3brfq24ju11m2hd0tjvznf34w1farae5ulsrj00u00c2.1551485005600241
Lit it up for you, Adrian. Thanks for the good catch!
Thank you. I wonder why I didn't work when I posted it? Must have been because I didn't separate it from my comment. Anyways, I can post another big one which includes intermodal, autoracks, and fruit express cars from February (this one is 182 cars but around 12,000 feet):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5rBy_M3biE&t=181s
ADRIAN BALLAMI wonder why I didn't work when I posted it? Must have been because I didn't separate it from my comment.
Almost. I've found that you must append a space to any URL link that you paste in.
Came across another interesting article by NatGeo on the Niland mud pots (current status unknown): https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2018/11/bubbling-pool-mud-moving-california-dont-know-why-geology/ BTW can anyone confirm that the shoofly is still single track? I've moved out of the area, so personal reconnaissance is less possible.
From a posting elsewhere, railfans and rails have noted that UP apparently is serious about running longer trains. Several sidings on the Gila sub are being lengthened (reportedly to about 16k feet); the sidings are Aztec, Piedra and Bosque. @kgbw49 is our soothsayer . We'll see how this works out for UP's version of 'PSR'.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
K.P., there are some more looong trains coming to the Sunset Route. I know they are already running long trains but it sounds like the UP plans on running a lot more long trains in the near future.
Following is an excerpt from today's Trains Newswire article about work on the Brazos Hump Yard in Texas being halted and the remaining capital dollars being redeployed on the Sunset Route:
“The remaining capital dollars planned for Brazos in 2019 will be reallocated to siding extensions on the Sunset Corridor and a block-swapping yard in Santa Teresa, which will add to our network flexibility,” Chief Operating Officer Jim Vena told investors and analysts on the railroad’s earnings call Thursday morning.
Santa Teresa, in New Mexico, is just west of El Paso, Texas, on the former Southern Pacific Sunset Corridor that links Southern California and Texas. UP will split and combine trains at Santa Teresa to increase train lengths west of El Paso.
If they build long sidings like CN does, they may be 5 miles long to hold two trains, and built to mainline standards.
5-mile-long sidings at 26,400 feet can fit two 12,500-foot-long trains.
There also are just a few short gaps in double track in California that may be closed. I would suppose it all depends on how much Brazos Yard capital can be redirected.
Does anyone have any thoughts on where the logical locations would be for the long sidings in southwestern AZ?
kgbw49Does anyone have any thoughts on where the logical locations would be for the long sidings in southwestern AZ?
See my post above - from another forum an apparent insider (rail) knows which Gila sub sidings and how long they will be lenghened. Note that the lengthened sidings break up the existing long single track sections with 'short' sidings.
Nothing precludes building to predesigned locations of future universal crossovers the usual ~10 miles apart, but I would not expect any new crossovers to be built for now.
kgbw49There also are just a few short gaps in double track in California that may be closed.
I agree with respect to bottlenecks near yards. The single track sections next to West Colton yard (Alhambra sub) and the Yuma crew change point seem worthy of improvement IMO.
MikeF90, thank you for reminding me of your previous post. Senior moment on my part! To quote Homer Simpson, “D,oh!”
I am going to check them out. Thanks again!
On the "west" side of the Sunset Route: at West Colton, the longest tracks in the receiving yard are +/- 10,100' long. The longest tracks in the departure yard (the 4 new ones built after the UP acquisition) are +/- 9,500' long. At Dolores, the longest tracks on either side of the 405 are +/- 7400' long. And headed up to Roseville, most sidings are in the 8,200' - 8,300' range. COI and East Yard (LA) have similar challenges, and as for LATC....
The finishing touches of the 2MT project on the Alhambra Sub between Sierra Avenue and the east side of Ontario have been engineered for years but were halted. I had a very pleasant conversation with a UP manager several years ago who was talking about the impact on Kaiser Yard of the 2MT project (losing one track) and it's impact on their ops there. It was a few months later the work stopped.
So it's not just the main: there will need to be terminal changes if anything happens beyond certain sizes.
Three 16,000-foot sidings in the two remaining single-track gaps in SW Arizona will have a dramatic impact on operations.
Do you know if there is a current timetable that lists the double-track sections and sidings on various UP subdivisions throughout their system? We have the Canadian Trackside Guide which lists all subdivisions for CN and CP.
To help clear up this 'train wreck' of non-information ......
ADRIAN BALLAMWe have the Canadian Trackside Guide which lists all subdivisions for CN and CP.
AFAIK this guide is a commercial product - go pay the man: https://bytownrailwaysociety.ca/index.php/sales-desk/canadian-trackside-guide/118-canadian-trackside-guide-2019
As far as detailed info on US freight railroads, that is hard to come by. Timetables issued by the class 1's are considered proprietary and are not distributed publicly. The western US used to be covered by Altamont Press timetables, but those are no longer being updated. There are some federal and state gov't produced maps published but they don't have enough detail for me.
To sort of fill the gap, I have been maintaining personal Google Maps of my areas of interest for use in forums like this - see my sig. If you want to build your own maps, go ahead and copy mine - the info is built from old timetables, ATCSMon layouts, anecdotal and on site reports from here, there and everywhere.
If anyone knows of a usable alternative to Google My Maps I'd love to hear about it. The functionality in My Maps keeps being reduced, probably to accomodate the short attention span smartphone crowd. Also, Google's KML / KMZ format is proprietary but publicly available and a defacto standard, kinda like Adobe's PDF file format.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170111032321/http://www.fogchart.com/Down/Beta/GILA.pdf
FogCharts used to be a good resource but that site went dark in 2017.
A new California book has been published with current timetable information. California Railroad Guide 2019. David M. Bernstien. Available as printed book or PDF. www.kingstreetpress.org My copy arrived about one month ago. 551 pages. Hopefully other states will follow. He also has a 1942 reprint book of SP employee timetables. Only Pacific Electric is missing on purpose.
A colleague recently passed by Salton Sea (CA) and told me there has been a new NOT activated yet signal mast erected east of Mecca with two heads for westbounds and a single head for eastbounds.
He also indicates from his sources that on both sides of the Clyde siding located between Niland and Yuma the old SP close together target signals have recently been replaced with respaced UP color light mast signals. Assumedly, the Clyde siding itself had its target signals converted to color lights also. That area is in a very remote location where even UP maintenance of way vehicles are often hard pressed to get trackside, at least quickly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
welcome back good friend KP.
K.P.,
Absolutely! Welcome back!
Two heads on a mast could mean two different things. Perhaps they are going to install a new siding west of Mecca. Or, it could also be to add a new "advance diverging" signal for a siding to be installed still further west.
The way I understand this, a yellow over green aspect is something like "advance diverging clear" or a yellow over yellow is "advance diverging approach" or something like that.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
eolesenFogCharts used to be a good resource but that site went dark in 2017.
Thank you for the reminder; the information is a little stale but a good starting point. I've found navigating archive.org a chore at times but found a useful page of the charts to link to: https://web.archive.org/web/20170610142120/http://www.fogchart.com/FOGCHARTED.htm
Fred M CainPerhaps they are going to install a new siding west of Mecca. Or, it could also be to add a new "advance diverging" signal for a siding to be installed still further west.
Adding a new siding seems unlikely, but perhaps the new signal is related to an upgrade of the turnout at CP Thermal. It was a low speed one so most traffic has been using the high speed crossover at Coachella.
As for important issues on the Yuma sub, allocating some $$$ to bypass 'Monty the Mudpot' at MP 662 might be a priority ....
Fred M. Cain (5-2), MikeF90 (5-2) and all:
The speculations relative to that new, not activated yet signals on a single mast east of the Mecca siding is somewhat premature, though what was fielded is something to think about. May I suggest, however, that that single mast is not a relocation, but directly related to that new guy with a long history at CN that retired from there that the UP CEO recruited. Since the future Brazos Yard has been basically put on hold and the hundreds of millions of dollars reallocated for Vena’s use for new tracks, at least as I understand things, why don’t we just wait a month or two and see what happens. As MikeF90 pointed out, the 30 M.P.H switch at the present end of two-tracks at Thermal is an operating thorn. Perhaps Vena will high-speed switch it, and extend the Mecca siding a mile. But, then, why not just two-track Thermal-Mecca? I suppose the thing to watch for is grading! On the other hand, the least expensive thing to do is just high speed switch Thermal, do away with the Mecca and Mortmar sidings (the latter is helmed in with grade crossings at each end), and space signals three miles apart. A lot of possibilities … and time will reveal them …
As far as Arizona, I got the feeling two-tracking is over, and Vena will just extend a few sidings, possibly four or five mile a few.
Another “route” to watch is the Los Angeles & Salt Lake, which could be more interesting than the Sunset Route. Now that for more the most part is ripe for big money allocations, especially in the Nevada and Utah areas! And while the Sunset Route is the most direct route from Colton to Pomona, the Colton-Riverside-Pomona Los Angeles & Salt Lake has much that is already two-tracked.
What is in Mr. Vena’s mind will eventually make itself manifest. Until then, we will just have to wait.
K.P.
Love the nickname! That sounds like a nickname General Patton would have had for General Montgomery!
K.P., great to hear from you! Approximately how many miles is the gap between Thermal and Mecca that you mentioned? Thanks for the intel!
Fred M Cain K.P., Absolutely! Welcome back! Two heads on a mast could mean two different things. Perhaps they are going to install a new siding west of Mecca. Or, it could also be to add a new "advance diverging" signal for a siding to be installed still further west. The way I understand this, a yellow over green aspect is something like "advance diverging clear" or a yellow over yellow is "advance diverging approach" or something like that. Regards, Fred M. Cain
Yellow over flashing green - approach clear 60 - proceed, prepared to pass next signal not exceeding 60 mph.
Yellow over green - approach clear 50 - proceed. prepared to pass next signal not exceeding 50 mph.
Yellow over yellow - approach diverging - proceed prepared to take the diverging route at next signal, not exceeding the prescibed speed through the turnout.
Generally on the newer high speed (40 - 50 - 60 mph) turnouts they don't use the approach diverging. Older installations may still have it.
Jeff
Jeff,
But are those eastern rules or western rules? There used to be a difference. I think the railroads that abided by eastern rules were governed by "NORAC" (or something). Out west they used a different set of rules and I cannot recall what the called it.
For example, the yellow over flashing green you mentioned used to be in my old Conrail ETT but I don't think it was in any of my SPTCo timetables.
Yellow over green on the SP was "approach diverging clear" and the engineer had to know what the speed limit of the accompanying turnout was - I think.
*OR* have all those rules been merged in to one now? I guess what I really remember is a bit dated now going back to the '90s.
FMC
Fred M Cain Jeff, But are those eastern rules or western rules? There used to be a difference. I think the railroads that abided by eastern rules were governed by "NORAC" (or something). Out west they used a different set of rules and I cannot recall what the called it. For example, the yellow over flashing green you mentioned used to be in my old Conrail ETT but I don't think it was in any of my SPTCo timetables. Yellow over green on the SP was "approach diverging clear" and the engineer had to know what the speed limit of the accompanying turnout was - I think. *OR* have all those rules been merged in to one now? I guess what I really remember is a bit dated now going back to the '90s. Regards, FMC
Those are UP system signal rules. UP uses General Code of Operating Rules (GCOR) over it's entire system. GCOR is used by multiple railroads, but doesn't specify signals, leaving the signal names, aspects and indications up to the individual railroads. BNSF also uses GCOR, but some signals are different from UP.
kgbw49 (5-3):
kgbw49 K.P., great to hear from you! Approximately how many miles is the gap between Thermal and Mecca that you mentioned? Thanks for the intel!
That distance between Thermal and Mecca switch to switch is roughly 4.3 miles, plus or minus.
Interestingly, in the Mecca area, WEST of the Mecca siding, the 4th Street grade crossing has had a second track laid in the grade crossing for some time.
https://goo.gl/maps/3yRQq8zyEwJKzpW47
Buried in a press release about UP closing yards in Chicago, they mention the longer sidings on the Sunset...
https://www.up.com/customers/announcements/CustomerNews/allcustomernews/CN2019-28.html
With PTC out of the way, maybe we'll finally see double-track aside from the Colorado River bridge...
Side note... I'm a lot less active here than on the Railroad.Net forums, and find they're a lot friendlier to navigate.
http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=168006
What is happening? You be the Judge!
Part “A” (of A-B)
On the afternoon of Tuesday, May 7, 2018 K.P. traveled from his base in Hemet, CA all the way to the Thermal-Mecca area northwest of Salton Sea in southern California to check out a report of some kind of signal installation activity on the Sunset Route. He found the new single-mast signals alright, but more significantly, in the Thermal area some kind of preliminary grading for vehicle usage and yellow marker flags were present!
At 62nd Ave. looking westbound:
On the above photo, not only is the yellow flags present, note the yellow aerial pipeline marker on the left.
Some at this forum may remember a photo by Salton Sea years ago of a lengthy digging taking place and a cable being buried by UP workers way before two-tracking came to that area. It has to be wondered if that above photo is in preparation for a like signal cable to be buried.
Looking east from 62nd Ave., the grading seems to go only a few hundred feet more and stops.
At this point in time, it is unknown if this is some kind of two-tracking effort, or the buried pipeline is possibly being relocated.
Again, two possibilities seem to arise with a section of track on the northeast side of the grade crossing from which the above two photos were taken from:
That panel track above could be just a replacement section, or for a new second track through the 62nd Ave. grade crossing. K.P. has long felt the new, second track would be laid on the north side here, with the section of panel track positioned correctly. That suggests those yellow flags on the south side are for burying a signal cable.
Again from 62nd Ave., an eastward view, this time a telephoto of the Highway 86 overpass (formerly Highway S86) shows no grading or yellow flaging.
Since it is early on in this new development, if new two-tracking is in its earliest stages, it cannot be said if two-tracking will stop eastward at 62nd Ave. to go all the way to the Mecca siding.
Continued in Part B
East of the Mecca siding, at Thobe Road, a new grade crossing electrical box has been put in (right).
East of the Mecca siding, as was done adjacent Salton Sea a number years back BEFORE that area was two-tracked, a strange temporary two masts signal box has been present east of Mecca for some time now, arguing that the Thermal-Mecca area may be in the early stages of being two-tracked
Less than a mile east of the above two-masts on a signal box, that new signal reported recently was found and photographed for the forum’s benefit.
Above, light was failing, so the photo is slightly blurry. But, it has a single-head facing west (towards the camera), and two heads facing east, with the lower head not as of now present yet, only the piping bracket for it.
A single-track wooden bridge just a bit further to the east with yellow marker flags in the wash area. Again, are they for burying cables?
At this point in time it is not clear what is happening, if two-tracking is taking place, just an upgrading of things, or what. Hopefully, K.P. can get out that way in the next two or three months and hopefully more developments will be present and it will be obvious what is transpiring.
End of series.
K. P. Harrier Less than a mile east of the above two-masts on a signal box, that new signal reported recently was found and photographed for the forum’s benefit.
I honestly do not know what kind of a signal this is. I doubt that the bottom head has three aspects and might not even two aspects. This could quite possibly be some kind of a high-water detector or something.
I used to know and understand the old SPTCo signals like the back of my right hand but times have changed with the UP. At first they didn't change much but later they did.
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