A Few Replies … and a Status Situation
Electroliner 1935 (12-17)
No, I have not heard anything about the south track access to Union Station in Los Angeles. However, the Internet was perused, and the following Union Station material may be of interest. Of special interest was the concept drawing of all the Union Station tracks having a long domelike covering! (After the concept alternatives and about third of the way down in "World Class Transit Station")
https://urbanize.la/post/four-options-union-station-run-through-tracks
(For those unfamiliar with Los Angeles Union Station the Sunset Route goes straight into the Union Station tracks, literally.)
I was by Los Angeles Union Station last week in pursuit of photos of the bunch of Metrolink new F125 diesels that have been there, and are still there, but again there were NO empty parking spaces. Your reply, however, reminded me of while I was by those F125’s I should have checked out the tunneling going on a few blocks away, at Alameda and 1st Streets..
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Los+Angeles,+CA/@34.0489704,-118.2385709,199m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c2c75ddc27da13:0xe22fdf6f254608f4!8m2!3d34.0522342!4d-118.2436849?hl=en
You may also be interested in the reply to Overmod below.
Overmod (12-17):
Quite a nice video of steamer AT&SF 3751 running eastbound up the middle of the I-10 Freeway between Los Angeles and El Monte, CA.
In THEORY, in the not too distant future, AT&SF 4-8-4 No. 3751 could meet UP 4-8-8-4 No. 4014 around Fremont Street within the center of the I-10 Freeway. Quite unlikely, but possible! UP does have trackage rights on that track down the I-10 Freeway. The siding there being under 1000-feet is probably the killer of a two steamer meet.
When UP 4-8-8-4 No. 4014 is released from being rebuilt at Cheyenne, WY, it is wondered how long it will take for the steamer to gravitate to the Sunset Route, California to Texas. Arizona and New Mexico have no idea how clogged the I-10 Freeway will become when the steamer visits those states … UP 844 visited in 2011, but that was just a steamer. No. 4014 is the biggest, and everyone likes the Big Boy!
To All: Visiting Arizona
Tentatively, the plan is to visit the Yuma, AZ area sometime in January 2018. When and how long hasn’t been determined yet. A key spot for investigation will be CP SP771 WELLTON. Main 1’s west side eastbound future mast signal should be (“should be”) a more exotic one, one way or another …If time permits, visiting the Hyder area is desirable to see if any new color lights signals have been erected on the Phoenix Line track in the boonies that sees a train seeming once every blue moon …
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
A Semi-Off Topic Post Series about New Signals …
... BUT, is it Just Haphazard or a Savvy Rule of Thumb?
Part I (of I-V)
This involves very recent signal developments on the Palmdale Cutoff that wyes into the Sunset Route by West Colton Yard in Southern California, developments that might be a sign of things to come, or perhaps not come.
From Bakersfield, CA the Union Pacific Mojave Sub climbs over the Tehachapi grades and down to Mojave, to Palmdale, zips southward (eastward) across the desert, visits Cajon Pass, and ends up wye-junctioning into the Sunset Route in Colton. NORTHWEST of Cajon Pass, railroad north, the nearly 40 years old “SP” short mast color light signals are now being replaced by the modern standard that UP is currently using. However, some new mast signals are of the previous modern standard …
PHOTOS A & B:
Previously shown
… while others are of the super pristine, new mast design with the heads wide apart and with a safer, large caged platform for maintainers.
PHOTOS C & D:
New photos
The first two photos (A and B) were shot at Johnson Road in Phelan, whereas the last two (C and D) were taken at Oasis Road in Pinon Hills. Time-wise, the focus in this series is from the Phelan siding to Palmdale (and by extension to Mojave). That area is the area of the new, wide apart heads and large cages that are springing up now. New-old style masts had been being installed westward from Colton and West Colton Yard, but the installations northwardly stopped at the Phelan siding for some months, most likely while UP was rethinking the cages matter.
For several weeks now, the type used appeared to be haphazard, a coin flip type selection of the mast type installed at any given location. But, K.P. saw something (”saw something”) on the Thursday, December 21, 2017 unplanned, surprise, spur of the moment outing that lasted way, way more time than originally intended, something that even most railroaders and railfans probably would never, ever think of. It involves the future, like why use a NEW mast if sometime in the future the signal will be taken down? Of course, it all could be a total coincidence, but if it is, it is an unbelievable one.
The rule of thumb seems to be this: If a new mast signal is permanent, the large platform is used. (Photos C and D) If the signal is temporary, a new OLD style platform is used. (Photos A and B) By temporary, sometime in the indefinite future is what is meant.
The Johnson Road signal LOCATION (A and B) has been with a signal since CTC was put in nearly forty years ago, at the same exact spot. What would happen if the county wanted to widen the road? Ah, the signal would need to be moved! So, it is probably considered temporary although there are no immediate plans to widen the road and move the signal.
At the Oasis Road grade crossing in Pinon Hills (Photos C and D) a long platform mast has just been put up, unlike the small platformed one at Johnson Road in Phelan: (Photos A and B)
Continued in Part II
Part II (of I-V)
Let’s time machine back to February 15, 2012, with photos shot in the snow at that Oasis Road grade crossing.
PHOTO E:
Looking southbound:
Note that the above photo shows the old signal, an Anschutz era true tri-light!
PHOTO F:
Northbound:
When signals and CTC was put in circa 1980 the short mast color light signal was several hundred feet WEST of Oasis Road. The grade crossing only had crossbucks! Then SP circa 1992-93 put in crossing gates, and to simplify wiring, did away with the signal west to Oasis Road and erected a replacement signal immediately east of the road. That replacement signal was farther away from the street than the mast signal by Johnson Road. So, the logic seems to be if Johnson Road is widened, the signal will need to be relocated, hence, a new-old mast has been put up, whereas the signal at Oasis Road doesn’t need relocating, hence, the new-new mast.
Continued in Part III
... BUT is it Just Haphazard or a Savvy Rule of Thumb?
Part III (of I-V)
Between Johnson Road (Phelan) and Oasis Road (Pinon Hills), midway in the about six miles between the main streets, is another recently replaced intermediate mast. It too is of the new-OLD type with the skimpy caging.
PHOTO G:
Apparently, UP envisions relocating that new-old mast signal closer to the Beekley Road grade crossing (camera position) sometime in the future. That dirt road grade crossing has no flashers or crossing gates presently, so there is no need to relocate the signal at this time.
PHOTO H:
So, the rule of thumb seems to be IF a new upgrade signal is permanent, a new-new one is erected; if it is temporary, a new-old mast is erected.
K.P. went farther west (railroad north, towards Palmdale) to see if the logic held true. The next signal west (northbound) about 3 miles past Oasis Road, towards the Wash siding, was a new-new one.
PHOTO I:
There was a very little used dirt road grade crossing railroad north of that above signal, but it appeared to be at the right distance from the signal, hence the new-new signal.
Continued in Part IV
Part IV (of I-V)
The next day, Friday, December 22, curiosity got to K.P. and he found that east of 165th Street grade crossing west of the Wash siding there is a new-new mast signal now present. Since there is NO grade crossings by it, there was no need for a temporary mast signal, just a new permanent one.
PHOTO J:
That signal’s wide apart heads as viewed from a distance, from the north side looking south:
PHOTO K:
For the record, from Highland (the top of Cajon Pass) to Palmdale the signals generally have a spacing of about three miles. The typical spacing elsewhere is only two miles.
Continued in Part V
Part V (of I-V)
So, on the Sunset Route, the installed in 2017 new signals conform to this presented logic. The west end of the Mecca siding has the new-new masts erected. (Photos reshown)
PHOTO L:
But, the questionable stretch west of Mecca to the end of two-tracks at Thermal has the new-OLD style signals erected.
PHOTOS M-O
K.P. believes that stretch after the Positive Train Control matter is out of the way will have two-tracks extended about a mile eastward, and a high speed 50 M.P.H. switch put in unlike the present 30 M.P.H. switch at CP SP620 THERMAL. That would follow the suggestion that new-old masts are erected for temporary situations.
IF the above mentioned theorized mile extension does take place in a few years, it would be a bad omen for the remaining two-tracking of the Sunset Route.
While the dates have not been set yet, the planned visit to Arizona in January 2018 should show new erected signals at CP SP771 WELLTON consistent with sometime later when the PTC matter is behind UP, that is a FUTURE right-hand high-speed switch will be installed, which if it is, would be the sign in K.P.’s opinion that two-tracking of the Sunset Route has been abandoned, an unintended consequence of the government’s Positive Train Control mandate.
There is only a fraction of two-tracking of the Sunset Route left that single-track fluidity could come from skillful use of fleeting, especially in Arizona where the majority of the remaining two-track is left to do.
Interestingly, the Mecca-Mortmar new-new signals use what appears to be new CP boxes, which doesn’t bode well for a continued two-tracking of the Sunset Route.
This will end the series.
The status of the Red Rock Yard in Arizona has been discussed from time to time on the Sunset Two-Tracking thread. So many things have entered the picture since the two-tracking project began. Among them, the recession, second thoughts, perhaps, on the impact of the Panama Canal, a Mexican port that has not come to fruition, changes in the political scene in both Arizona and Washington, PTC, etc.
The other day, I came upon this interesting article. To my mind it raises more questions than it answers, but at least it shows we on this forum are not the only ones who are curious about the subject:
http://www.pinalcentral.com/casa_grande_dispatch/area_news/a-decade-later-no-pressing-need-for-red-rock-rail/article_38e753ba-41e1-5087-a9da-e761ceb0c22d.html
John Timm
Merry Christmas to all...
K.P., is it possible you are over-thinking things and they’re simply changing mast designs, and using up what is left in stock?
Railroads are inherently cheap, and nothing serviceable gets wasted...
After Many Years, it is Seen Again!
Traditionally on the Sunset Route signals are red in at least one direction while the other can be yellow or more favorable if the track circuit is unoccupied. Some years ago in the Thousand Palms, CA area soon after that are was two-tracked, signals in BOTH directions were observed as flashing yellow, i.e., there was not a ‘direction of travel.’ And, the signals were always lit regardless of there was a train in the block or not.
After many months, that situation was corrected, and the signals functioned as the rest on the Sunset Route, normally dark and with a direction of travel.
On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 in a three stop dispatch to San Bernardino, things turned bizarre and K.P. found himself taking care of dispatch matters in Ontario. After the necessities were over, he traveled alongside the Sunset Route (Airport Drive) in Ontario, and at the new Vineyard Ave. underpass site, the east westbound signal was on, displaying yellow. Passing the signal, in the mirror he could see that the west eastbound signal was also on, and displaying yellow too! So, there was NO direction of travel here, just like the Thousand Palms area had been years before.
The west side eastbound signal:
The east side westbound signal (same mast):
When traveling westbound on Airport Drive next to the Sunset Route, in the darkness, it appeared the pipeline relocation was finished, though there were a few small areas with orange fencing, the fencing owner being unknown, if was the pipeline’s or UP’ activity.
A daytime file photo from April 29, 2016 was dug up so any at the forum that are unfamiliar with the area could relate to the above material’s location. The signals mentioned are on the west (far side) of the underpass bridge, on the right.
Nor is it known if the signals now cleared in both directions is a short term situation or will be that way for months to come.
desertdog (12-25):
Something changed and an emphasis has NOT been on two-tracking of the Sunset Route, ESPECIALLY in Arizona.
An advantage K.P. has, John, is living by both the Sunset Route and the Los Angeles & Salt to Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, and on to Chicago. That latter route seems to be having a tremendous amount of traffic, just looking at it cursory.
Personally, I think the LA&SL is a better route to Chicago. It is multi-tracks all the way from Salt Lake City to Chicago and from Los Aneles to Salt Lake City the single-track portion has shorter but closer together sidings. The Golden State route to Chicago is better suited for long drags that are not time sensitive.
Ironically, the Salt Lake City to Omaha route has 40 M.P.H. crossovers (except for the eastern end), a trademark of Davis, a well-known VP. He left to head CSX, and later SP. When the SP merged with UP he was back just in time to triple-track the coal portion of the Central Corridor with 40 M.P.H. crossovers! Then he retired. Now, new installations have 50 M.P.H. crossovers.
Davis was in charge when the Sentinel to Stanwix portion of the Sunset Route was two-tracked. Unsurprisingly, 40 M.P.H. switches were used …
Back to the point of your reply post, I think we might see odd things in 2019-2020 once the Positive Train Control matter is behind UP. But, I got a hunch UP routing Los Angeles to Chicago traffic via Salt Lake City will lessen the need to finish the two-tracking the Sunset Route, or even lesson the need to have a new classification yard at Red Rock. Time is on UP’s side, because with boxcar traffic stagnate, UP could theoretically hold out indefinitely to win whatever battle may (“may”) be going on behind the scenes between UP and the State of Arizona.
eoleson (12-25):
I had thought of that very thing. It is hoped to head toward Lancaster and Mojave sometime soon to get a broad overview of the new signal replacements. I’ll share the findings.
Best,
K. P. Harrier Passing the signal, in the mirror he could see that the west eastbound signal was also on, and displaying yellow too! So, there was NO direction of travel here, just like the Thousand Palms area had been years before.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours. May all your signals be correct.
My assumption and questions are: Are these signals both DISTANT (Approach) SIGNALS for CP's (Home) SIGNALS in each direction. Are other non-CP signals APPROACH LIT? And are other DISTANT signals approach lit or Constantly ON?
If other DISTANT SIGNALS are Approach lit, I would suspect there is a wiring error as I would expect these to stay dark until either 1) a train enters the block and/or 2) the appropriate Home signal is more favorable than STOP & STAY.
A Hodgepodge Posting Series
Part “A” (of A-C)
REPLY to Electroliner 1935 (12-27):
Terminology Time Warp
Thank you for the kind holiday greetings!
Here on the west coast, about 2:00 A.M. Christmas Day, I looked out the window, and for the first time I saw Santa Claus making the rounds with Rudolf … (Yah, right!)
Yes, you ARE way older than my 60 plus years. While I can relate to “home signal,” it is not now common. Matter of fact, a contact ran a word search in a UP division timetable and there was no ‘home signal’ in it. I think, if I understand past railroading, home signal was most associated with an absolute signal in an environment of Automatic Block Signals or dark territory and a station in trainorder days of the way distant past.
Now, we just use CP (control point) and intermediate signals.
The Ontario (CA) track you inquired about had intermediate signals by the Vineyard Ave. underpass, with a CP at the end of two-tracks to the west, and the Guasti controlled siding to the east. Since installed a few years back, these signals have been approach lit with a ‘direction of travel.’ Likely, an electrical part had to be ordered, and the lit signals had no direction of travel in the meantime. Or, maybe the signals were set that way to facilitate something else. Who knows?
What is really at CP SP952 RED ROCK?
K.P. has been to and photographed often over the years CP SP952 RED ROCK in Red Rock, AZ, now with a 30 M.P.H. universal crossovers arrangement with a westward north side siding. All these years he never got the full sense of that CP..
CP SP952 RED ROCK
>------------ \ \ <---------------------------------------- > / \ / \ ---------------------------------------- > <
.
The above is the present track and signal layout (at least aerials show it that way). From track level, one really can’t discern the track layout. BUT, did you notice the location of the EAST SIDE WESTBOUND SIGNALS (diagram right)? They are way to the east of the last crossover! Thus, it appears THREE other, additional switches are in the CP’s future!
POSSIBLE FUTURE CP SP952 RED ROCK
>--------------------- \ \------------ \ > \ \ \ \ <---------------------------------------- > / \ \ / \ \ ---------------------------------------- > <
Continued in Part B
Part “B” (of A-C)
A Broadening of the CP
CP SP952 RED ROCK aerial (EAST end, lower diagram right):
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Red+Rock,+AZ/@32.5680741,-111.3178055,202m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x86d5f7185633cd3d:0x890e7e30a8719144!8m2!3d32.5730612!4d-111.3290006?hl=en
Note the present east side signals are far eastward from the crossovers, and that there is plenty of room for another crossover, and a projected side track westward.
THUS, the future Red Rock Yard is for real. It is just that Positive Train Control has taken up resources that would otherwise have been spent on Red Rock Yard. From 2019 on, after the PTC matter is behind UP work could (“could”) start on Red Rock Yard. HOWEVER, the PTC matter may have set back such capital spending for years, maybe even a decade or two. The same could (“could”) be said about the resumption of the two-tracking of the Sunset Route in Arizona. If that delay does happen, can you imagine this thread still going strong 20 years from now? Of course, maybe there won’t even be boxcar traffic 20 years from now, but only intermodal (and, of course, heavy and liquid unit train movements)! Hence, maybe NO Red Rock Yard will ever be built … It is an unknown tossup.
Continued in Part C
Part “C” (of A-C)
Assuming Red Rock is built sometime in the future, WHY would CP SP952 RED ROCK be so large, as in the second diagram in Part A?
West Colton Yard in the Colton-Fontana, CA area of the Sunset Route only has a SINGLE exit track! A never before shown view from January 15, 2017 of that single exiting track with a train going to probably Tucson or Houston:
Why would Red Rock have two non-mainline tracks, or at least room for two such tracks?
It is K.P.’s understanding that Red Rock would be the main terminal in the future, with Tucson being eliminated or greatly downsized. Train crews would make reliefs at Red Rock. So, a third main track may (“may”) be for crew reliefs!
At first glance West Colton Yard in Southern California on the Sunset Route only has two-tracks for crew changes. But, the idea of two-tracks is not entirely correct. A THIRD-track is the Mt. Vernon Connector to the BNSF so trains can go to or come from the alternate Sunset Route via UP’s LA&SL line through Riverside. So, if Red Rock had three-tracks for crew reliefs that would be consistent with Red Rock’s counterpart yard at West Colton Classification Yard.
A Red Rock Yard would alter crew run distances greatly because of its distance from Tucson. Maybe (“maybe”) UP is thinking of running crews from West Colton Yard all the way to Red Rock. I had lunch a number of years ago with a retired engineer from Santa Fe. His operating area was from Bakersfield, CA to Winslow, AZ! His home base was Barstow, CA. So, UP might (“might”) have something similar in mind involving the future Red Rock Yard.
For the forum’s information, a historic look at the past sheds light on this. I think it was 1973 (Wow! Almost forty-five years ago!) SP crew runs were a lot different than today. There was a bad, high-speed rear-ender type wreck in Indio (CA), then a crew change point. One or both of the head-end crew that got killed worked out of Bakersfield (CA). It is assumed they made it to Los Angeles too, and also maybe Fresno. Back then Bakersfield-Mojave, Mojave-Colton, Colton-Indio, and Indio-Yuma were crew runs. SP even had a wild run from Los Angeles to Phoenix with just one crew in the second half of the 1980’s!
Whatever ultimately happens, railroading as we know it on the Sunset Route will undoubtedly change. And, a Red Rock Yard may be the catalyst for that change. But, beforehand, getting past the Positive Train Control hurdle is first priority. After that, from 2019 on, whether the railroads will take decades to recover their PTC loses and not invest in anything or proceed as before is yet to be seen. But, CAT now may (“may”) have regrets about getting into the locomotive manufacturing business, and GE seems to want to sell off its locomotive success story. After 2018 who knows what will happen …
This will end this series.
K.P., it remains to be seen, but the recent Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 includes 5 years of immediate expensing for capital investments for the purpose of computing Federal tax liability.
The effect of being able to expense a capital investment immediately lowers tax liability, and in essence leaves more revenue in the business rather than having it be passed on to the US Government.
In addition to the lowering of the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21%, which also leaves more money in the business, this capital investment expensing provision is going to be very helpful to companies in getting them to reinvest in their business.
Of course, railroads are very capital intensive, so it may be that they can take advantage of both of those provisions to complete some capacity projects that might otherwise have been delayed. Granted, there will be some of the tax savings that goes in to stock buy-backs and dividends, but there is bound to be some of it that goes in to capital investment.
On the UP, perhaps Sunset Route double tracking segments will re-commence, or the Red Rock Yard, or double tracking the Fremont-Missouri Valley segment on the Overland Route.
BNSF might use the expensing window to finish the second bridge over the Missouri River at Sibley, MO to complete double tracking of the Southern Transcon, or the second bridge over Lake Pend O'Reille to eliminate that bottleneck on the Northern Transcon.
CSX might take advantage of the capital expensing window to increase the pace of long siding installation on their Chicago-Jacksonville main line, as might CP on their line between Portal, ND and Minneapolis, MN.
It is going to be interesting to see how that all plays out. I am sure the railroads are working very hard already to take advantage of that five-year capital expensing window, and perhaps as they release their capital plans for 2018 we'll gain some insight in to how they plan to leverage that in to improvements in capacity in key areas.
Very, Very CONCRETE Evidence …
… of Upcoming SoCal Two-Tracking
Across from Ontario International Airport (OIA), just north of Airport Drive, about 30 miles east give or take from Los Angeles, BETWEEN the new Vineyard Ave. underpass and the Archibald Ave. underpass, is a north-south concrete lined flood control channel with a single-track railroad bridge for the east-west Sunset Route. K.P. drove by that location yesterday, Saturday, December 30, 2017.
Orange construction fencing had been erected, a number of construction vehicles were present, and it looked like concrete abutments for a south side second-track bridge were being put in.
Aerial of the location:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Vineyard+Ave+%26+E+Airport+Dr,+Ontario,+CA+91761/@34.0627203,-117.6016727,199m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c33459abc62d51:0xcd794ce8cbbb9d34!8m2!3d34.0622393!4d-117.6109813?hl=en
The location appeared to be difficult to photograph, so the future may or may not allow photos. The old, small camera may have to be used … Some (“some”) successes have been had with that camera …
Pomona, CA Report (and elsewhere)
In Pomona, a photo was taken of the new fencing around the newer WEST box of the two at CP AL514 HAMILTON:
As seen above, the west eastbound deactivated signal from the OLD CP AL514 HAMILTON is still standing. Maybe (“maybe”) it is still standing for a temporary bringing back to life sometime in the future, possibly when a theorized WEST signal bridge is erected.
Here are two LA&SL tracks (our Mains B [left) and A [right] at the west side of CP AL514 HAMILTON. The forum might remember that the left signal is right in the middle of where the B Track will ultimately be.
The west side A Track new switch, the first installed in 2011 and only recently put in service.
K.P. checked on the Etiwanda Ave (Loop Ave.) area, but nothing popped out as newsworthy.
K.P.’s dispatcher cell-phoned him, and advised him to go to Colton and San Bernardino and taking the I-215 Freeway instead of the I-15 because the I-15 was log jammed. So, K.P. checked out West Colton Yard at Pepper Ave, and the Colton Signal Dept. at Colton. Nothing was seen at either, except that the Colton rolls of wire seemed lower.
Solidifying an Opinion!
As most know, presently the remaining old target signals on the Sunset Route are being systematically replaced by the color light types. But, a new type mast with a larger maintainer’s caging is springing up. BOTH old-new and new-new masts are being used. K.P. has been of the opinion that now (“now”) old-new installations are temporary, while new-new ones are permanent.
It just so happens that K.P.’s home territory is along the UP (ex-SP) Bakersfield-West Colton Yard Mojave Subdivision that wyes into the Sunset Route on the southern end (Colton area). The southern end of that line was having new “old-new” signals erected, but many months ago that stopped, and has just recently started back up again with BOTH old-new and new-new masts. So, now with replacements again being performed, K.P. wanted some type of concrete evidence as to why certain types of masts were being installed. And, he found it! And, there is a whole bunch of types of evidences, too! So, it is not a simple black and white matter. There are a whole lot of black and whites!
Sometime in the next two weeks K.P. hopes to put together what appear to be the logics (plural) of why old-new and new-new masts are spring up now at any particular spot.
Take for example the very recently erected OLD-new replacement signal at 116th Street east of Palmdale
A very similar situation about three miles to the west (railroad north) has a NEW-new mast signal erected. What you don’t see is on the other side of the track, and may be the telltale sign about the future.
There are a whole lot of such little things K.P. found as to why OLD-new mast signals are present instead of NEW-new ones.
Within two weeks K.P. hopes to have the complicated material ready for posting, if dispatches here and there don’t bog him down.
This will end this posting.
Applying TRANSITION Signaling Elsewhere …
… to the Future Signaling on the Sunset Route
Part I (of I-VII+)
Recently in this thread mention was made of old target signals being replaced with new color light ones in accord with Positive Train Control (PTC) regulations. But, those replacements oddly used BOTH an old platform design and a new platform design. K.P. came of the opinion that the NEW design was used on permanent installations, whereas the OLD design was used on temporary ones. He came to that conclusion from very limited observation in the area he is based out of, the High Desert of Southern California.
He then set out to see if that was just a coincidence or was the way it now is. He checked out the Mojave Sub from eastern Palmdale to Mojave, CA, that subdivision connecting on the southern end to the Sunset Route in the Colton area. He concluded from the investigative trip that he had concluded correctly. The following outlines this new signal development, and you can determine for yourself if K.P. concluded correctly.
First stop, the 116th Street grade crossing east of Palmdale, on the Palmdale Cutoff, the middle part of the Mojave Sub.: An OLD new replacement. Previously, this was Southern Pacific track.
Just above, did you notice how at risk the mast signal is if flooding came? Likely, the great master plan is to relocate the signal to across the road, 116th Street, where NO flood danger exists.
A very similar situation exists, but to a lesser degree, at 92nd Street, where a NEW-new mast signal was erected.
That signal’s location has a north side dirt roadway parallel to the track over a smaller wash.
So, having a NEW-NEW mast here makes sense. If you want to skip the below trivia on a related subject (Part I-A), go directly to Part II.
Part I-A: Trivia – A Train Wreck and Signals
A number of years ago K.P. stopped at the 92nd Street East grade crossing in the Palmdale, CA area, and relooked it over. Back then it had an original short mast color light signal that had been installed circa 1980 in upgrading dark territory to signaled. After a few moments, he thought to himself that this location would be a great place for a train wreck. Crazy idea! Train wrecks don’t happen just because the idea popped into someone’s mind. Then, he moved on.
A couple of weeks later a juicy train wreck did happen right where the idea had popped into K.P.’s head! A day or so later he went to the site, and soon found a friendly cleanup member, and asked him if they had found the cause. He immediately said yes, and that it was caused by wide gauge. Wide gauge! K.P. must have sensed that wide gauge subconsciously when he thought what he did a few weeks earlier. Can you image that!
A July 28, 2011 view:
July 30, 2011:
As the above two lower photos show, the new contemporary signal replacement must have been so radically new to the erectors they didn’t know where to place correctly the number plates!
Part II (of I-VII+)
A few blocks east of Highway 138 in southeastern Palmdale, as seen from 60th Street East and East Ave T, an OLD-new mast has been newly erected as an upgrade replacement, for no apparent reason. After studying aerials, K.P. has theorized the signal will be relocated sometime in the future to within the curve to the east for better train visibility of the signal.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Palmdale,+CA/@34.5460925,-118.0274432,1582m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c25784ec70ddb5:0x6a6c792dad12e03a!8m2!3d34.5794343!4d-118.1164613?hl=en
We now go to Palmdale Junction, with the UP track curving to the left, Metrolink track on the right.
Over two decades ago northward (behind the camera) from Palmdale Junction, the signals were upgraded in conjunction with the Metrolink track being laid, such as at the Denis (spelled with one “n”) siding, looking south, and true circular tri-light heads were used.
At this point in time, it is unknown if these signals will be upgraded or not, but the tri-lights at Oasis Road were changed to the present UP standard recently. See December 23, 2017 post series “A Semi-Off Topic Post Series …” Parts I and II.
Part III (of I-VII+)
At the north side of Lancaster, the target absolute (non-number plated mast) holding signals were changed out to color lights with an OLD-new installation.
Above, there was nothing obvious why a NEW-new mast signal was NOT put in. But, there seems to be a very good reason why an OLD-new mast was erected, and this is discernable at the next signal to the north.
Above, too, note the OVERPASS fill dirt in the background.
[With that above photo, K.P. had his first major postimage.org website malfunction that delayed this post]
The next intermediates to the north are at Avenue G, and a NEW-new mast was erected.
That above signal is SOUTH of the Oban siding.
BUT, the situation in the below photo just north of the above pictured signal looking south towards that overpass by that holding signal is revealing:
The distance is only about 1.3 miles between the two signals, an old SOUTHERN PACIFIC standard. There is very little industry to be switched nowadays in Lancaster, so that holding signal likely is on borrowed time, hence, an OLD-new mast there makes sense.
Part IV (of I-VII+)
North of the Oban siding, a NEW-new signal was erected.
The next intermediate north is an OLD-new one.
K.P. did notice a wash just north (left) of that signal. Maybe the mast signal will be relocated to a perceived safer location, or to one more correctly spaced.
Part V (of I-VII+)
We come to a signal north of Rosamond, a NEW-new mast, so it is a permanent one.
We then come to a street where the crossing gates are being traded out. Interesting operation …
Continued in Part VI
Part VI (of I-VII+)
The first signal north of the Ansel siding is a NEW-new one.
Then we come to a real maverick situation, an OLD-new mast intermediate signal at the south end of the OLD Fleeta siding. It is not even listed in employee timetables now, and hasn’t been listed for decades. WHY the signal is an OLD-new one at first baffled K.P.
Above, note the switch stand on the left.
The next intermediate to the north is of the NEW-new type, at the north end of the Fleeta siding. Just to its north an industrial track branches off the mainline.
Aerial view:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mojave,+CA+93501/@35.0108869,-118.1610153,98m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c2215cf671ff47:0xd6df8073bdffbca0!8m2!3d35.0524699!4d-118.1739645?hl=en
In reviewing the Fleeta area, the north end of the old Fleeta siding has a NEW-new mast signal, whereas the south end has an OLD-new one. It is only a siding’s length between masts. Thus, the south OLD-new mast undoubted is on borrowed time
A somewhat strange phenomenon is the absence of exit signals on this whole stretch.
Again, if you want to skip the below trivia, you can skip Part VI-A and B on related subjects and go directly to Part VII
Continued in Part VI-A
Part VI-A: Trivia – A Cool Bridge
At the north end of the town of Mojave, there is the Oak Creek Road Bridge. It has fence openings for cameras! A few years ago those openings were highlighted in the “TEHACHAPI: Two-Tracking Updates” thread.
Photos taken December 29, 2017
The present Highway 347 overpass bridge construction over the Sunset Route in Maricopa, AZ would attract railfans to Maricopa if it had such fence openings too. The big negative very nearby is a high school, and dropping things on trains through such holes might be too tempting for the mindless. So, strike out the idea.
Continued in Part VI-B
Part VI-B: Trivia – Arizona and Mojave
You may remember east of Maricopa, AZ CP SP904 ARIZONA GRAIN, where a “dark” track off Main 2 went to a grain loading facility.
Looking west:
Looking east: The left track are intermediate signals, the right is an absolute with a lower single-lamp for red and flashing red.
Above photos from March 12, 2011
A the south end of Mojave, the absolute signal into Main 1 (from a dark switching spur) has a lower single red / flash red also, for going into the Mohave Yard from that spur.
Lower absolute single bulb reds are rare, but do exist.
Continued in Part VII
Part VII (of I-VII+)
NEW-NEW and OLD-NEW signals are now being erected on the Sunset Route too, such as at Mecca …
… and at Thermal …
… both in southern California. All above photos in this Part VII are reshown.
This series has given the forum what is going on about erecting replacement signals (and the platforms thereon) in conjunction with the Positive Train Control present happenings. Those interested in the Sunset Route activity might be able to use that information to second guess the meaning of the types of signals now being erected at any given location.
KP noticed that the signals that you posted that were on single tracks had an old style signal bungalow. That is the long type. Where there were two tracks the new square type bungalows appeared or none yet especially all two track turned aside signals. Is that just lack of observations or does that have any merit ?
The Very Opposite to Expectations Arizona Trip
Lodging in Yuma, AZ was made for a Friday-Sunday, January 5-7, 2018 trip, with Saturday set aside to visit Red Rock, Maricopa, and the Phoenix Line around Hyder. Final OK was received Thursday night, so off K.P. went Friday morning, with the first stop the Airport Blvd. overpass GREEN fencing in good light over the Sunset Route in Thermal east of Indio, CA
But, when K.P. got to Fortuna, AZ things got bad, as NO new signals had been erected very unlike he had expected. Neither was new signals erected at CP SP771 WELLTON, nor even new signals laying trackside, and the new CP box was still away from the tracks.
At this point K.P. decided to forego going further east the next day, and cancelled the Saturday lodging. Nevertheless, a few developments were seen, like the Wellton new burial bases were almost all gone and much of the signals stored at Wellton were cleared out.
A posting series (Parts A-F) on the lack of developments and what was found will be presented Wednesday, January 10, 2018 by at least 9:00 A.M. Pacific Standard Time.
Memo to blue streak 1 (1-8):
On that Mojave Sub, on the single-track south of the town to Mojave, the electrical boxes were retained, both CP and grade crossing ones, such as the tan one in the M.P. 438 area of the Palmdale Cutoff thereon.
The Sunset Route is more of a money maker for UP, hence, the electrical boxes in conjunction with PTC are generally new ones. In the upcoming Arizona material one of the Wellton photos shows side by side electrical boxes, a new style and a shiny NEW, low level OLD style! The two types of boxes are kind of a contradiction to the eyes!
Friday and Saturday, January 5-6, 2018
Part “A” (of A-F)
The first targeted stop in Arizona was CP SP743 FORTUNA, and what a disappointment was found there. NO new color light signals were present, not even laying down new masts.
A pile of ballast was nearby.
A new WOODEN tied switch was on site that looked like was in the final stages of assembly.
The ties through here are ALL old (“old”) wooden ties, which suggests to K.P. that sometime after the Positive Train Control matter is behind UP in 2019 (hopefully) this rather short Yuma-Fortuna area will be two-tracked. Of course, that is only an opinion.
K.P. now headed east to Wellton with his finger crossed.
Part “B” (of A-F)
In Wellton now, it could be seen real early before ever getting close to CP SP771 WELLTON that NO new signals had been erected, nor was any laying on the ground!
K.P. then concluded this was a wasted trip, and the three days planned were seriously ponded to be shortened.
By the staging area in Wellton, all the burial stands present previously had dwindled to three (shade area in photo center).
As seen above, the laying down masts had dwindled too. A few even had a number of red “X” marks on them.
Part “C” (of A-F)
An eastbound soon zips by.
There were a stack of signal masts left on site, along with a bunch of new wooden ties.
A couple of electrical boxes were on site too, one strangely a NEW low, long box (center) like the kind that is now being replace!
Continued in Part D
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