Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Boyd wrote:What RR lines, branches or even abandoned/unused tracks do you think would be great for a tourist RR to operate on?
None. There are already so many tourist trains that barely make it. Starting more is merely an invitation for failure, absent significant outside support.
LC
A tourist line has to offer something special. A trundle through the woods isn't sufficient. Even spectacular scenery is only a middling draw.
Our biggest "season" is fall colors - hundreds of folks come out for a look at the leaves. One of our biggest draws through the course of the summer is the "train robberies," which just happen to occur on a train that moves.
Our biggest event for the year is the "Polar Express." They always sell out, but we could probably run 3 miles instead of 13 and nobody would notice - it's all in the dark anyhow.
The rest of the year we consider a 200 passenger day pretty good. We've gone out with two passengers - less than the crew, but they showed up and paid, so we go. We've also cancelled a trip entirely, because nobody showed up.
Unless you have an area near a major metropolitan area that currently has no such operation, you need to look very closely as to whether you start something up like that.
I'm not so sure we broke even last year, even discounting some locomotive issues that have come up.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 wrote: A tourist line has to offer something special. A trundle through the woods isn't sufficient. Even spectacular scenery is only a middling draw.Our biggest "season" is fall colors - hundreds of folks come out for a look at the leaves. One of our biggest draws through the course of the summer is the "train robberies," which just happen to occur on a train that moves. Our biggest event for the year is the "Polar Express." They always sell out, but we could probably run 3 miles instead of 13 and nobody would notice - it's all in the dark anyhow.The rest of the year we consider a 200 passenger day pretty good. We've gone out with two passengers - less than the crew, but they showed up and paid, so we go. We've also cancelled a trip entirely, because nobody showed up.Unless you have an area near a major metropolitan area that currently has no such operation, you need to look very closely as to whether you start something up like that.I'm not so sure we broke even last year, even discounting some locomotive issues that have come up.
Interesting. One needs to consider economics first in any railroad related project. Breaking even can be a term subject to many interpretations. I suspect you are considering a break even based upon operations alone. Most tourist railroads have to account that way. The capital costs of MOW and structures is such that most tourist operators would have to show significant red ink all the time. The Adirondack Scenic receives significant capital support from the State of New York which keeps the big capital spending issues such as MOW&S under control. Still it is a big issue. Small trourist pikes do a bit better with the capital issue due to their smaller physical plant, but also suffer because there are only so many customers for a short "choo-choo" ride such as the Thomas the Tank or Polar Express type experience and without outside support from the government or perhaps a large non-profit, or both capital expenses catch up to the balance sheet eventually.
When thinking about a tourist railroad start up, consider how many freight short lines are barely making it and consider the following.
A freight short line averages about $300/carload. A small customer, such as a local lumber yard (if such exists anymore) or a small plastics plant moves about 50 carloads per year. A larger customer, say a sawmill 300. A cattle feed mill 500 to 1,000. Given the average $300, consider how many tourists need to ride your excursion train each year to reach even the $15,000 in revenue represented by the small freight customer. At an average (between adults, children and special fares) of $10 to $20 per ticket. You would need between 1,500 and 750 paying passengers to replace that small freight user.
Now consider the most basic of MOW needs, crosstie replacement. This requires a new or good relay tie, cost minimum $18 per tie (relay) to over $28 (new). You also need the labor to put the tie into the track. A contractor will charge anywhere from $45 to $55 per tie in labor and equipment. Once that is done the track must be surfaced (tamped, regulated and alined) ($18 or more per track foot) and any needed ballast added ($12 to $22 per ton). So, for a small tie project a per tie cost today is on the order of $100 per crosstie. So if you brought in those 1,000 passengers or so and received your $15,000 in revenue you could complete a tie project involving replacement of 150 crossties. So if you put in 5 crossties per rail length you could cover about 1, 170 track feet, a bit less than a quarter of a mile. That gives you track at slightly better than FRA Class 1. How long is that tourist pike again? A short run for an hour out and hour back will require at least 15 miles of track at 15 mph (passenger speed for FRA Class 1 track). So if you replace ties on that less than 1/4 mile per year it will take you about 60 years to replace ties to maintain you railroad at the minimum passenger standard with your $15,000 budget. Given that crossties may last 25 to 30 years you already have a problem. Remember, you'll need to maintain bridges, tunnels and grade crossings, motive power, passenger equipment and maintenance equipment. You'll need to pay at least a handful of employees and provide equipment for volunteers. So, the $15,000 may realistically be all you can give to the track...
Of course, by using some of your own labor and acquiring MOW machines you may be able to reduce costs and perhaps you can scare up some grant funds to help, but at the end of the day you'll be lucky to survive. Remember, even a sizable tourist line with good marketing is not likely to draw much more than 50,000 passengers annually and at the high end suggested average of $20 revenue per passenger that still only brings in $1,000,000 annually. This is the equivalent of a small short line with several good mid-sized freight customers. Of course, the freight doesn't talk back, get injured, sue or complain...
Interesting isn't it. My figures are based upon my own current railroad experience.
csmith9474 wrote:The old Copper Range in the UP of Michigan??
Who'd ride? It's how far from the nearest (never mind major) population center?
tree68 wrote: csmith9474 wrote:The old Copper Range in the UP of Michigan??Who'd ride? It's how far from the nearest (never mind major) population center?
Maybe folks on the way to Isle Royale National Park? There is a bit of tourism up there. I personally just like the old line, and would think it would be neat to see trains running on it again. It passes basically right under the Bishop Baraga monument.
In Connecticut there is four Museums, two with Tourist Trains!
An hour drive from Hartford, two hours from Boston or New York City, that's the population you need. The State owns the track, they gave it to the railroads 150 years ago, when service ended the State took it back.
Essex is Steam powered with a Mikado and a Consolidation. It also connects with a River Boat Ride making a 2 1/2 hour excursion. They also operate a dinner Train. In the Spring and Fall, for a stiff price, they will teach you to run a Steam Locomotive and give you an hour on the Throttle, that extends the operating season. Essex is 20, or less, miles from other tourist attractions, the worlds largest Casino, Foxwoods. The Mohegan Sun Casino is also nearby as is the Mystic Sea Port (1860 Whaling). http://www.essexsteamtrain.com/
The Naugatuck Railroad operates out of Thomaston, 25 miles west of Hartford. Diesel powered with an FL9 and a restored RS3. They also operate a "Engineer For An Hour" program, this time on a Diesel. http://www.rmne.org/ (Railroad Museum of New England)
Don U. TCA 73-5735
well i DO know part of CNW's old main to Itasca was saved and used by a tourist road still. nice to see it's still around, i must say. Wisconsin Great Northern is the road's name. they're based in Spooner. i guess the yard there was saved and used by WGN as their own yard. i always wanted to go up there and check it out. and photograph CNW 400 which has become a lawn ornament there.
yikes. poor thing
Your friendly neighborhood CNW fan.
tree68 wrote:And there's the trolley museum just north of Hartford, which also offers time at the throttle.
That would be Warehouse Point, which is a great tourist line and museum. I was there about 20 years ago, and they were using about a mile of old Connecticut Railway track and were negotiating for several more miles of line.
We have a decent line in SE MO, the St. Louis, Iron Mountain and Southern. They use track which is also used by the Jackson and Southern, so the line makes money even when the tourist traffic is light.
But I agree that the tourist business is pretty well saturated.
Lord Atmo wrote: well i DO know part of CNW's old main to Itasca was saved and used by a tourist road still. nice to see it's still around, i must say. Wisconsin Great Northern is the road's name. they're based in Spooner. i guess the yard there was saved and used by WGN as their own yard. i always wanted to go up there and check it out. and photograph CNW 400 which has become a lawn ornament there.yikes. poor thing
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
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