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Amtrak Trains stuck near donner pass

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Amtrak Trains stuck near donner pass
Posted by Nataraj on Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:13 AM
2 CA Zephyr Trains are stuck near donner pass.

"Amtrak's California Zephyr passenger trains were stranded near Donner Pass around 2 p.m. after a large plow being used to clear the tracks fell through a walkway and blocked the trains' path, according to Amtrak spokeswoman Karina Romero"

http://cbs5.com/local/trains.stuck.sierra.2.644125.html

I dont get how a snow plow fell through the walkway....
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Posted by Lyon_Wonder on Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:20 AM
This happened back in the 1950s too, at least according to one show about Donner Pass on the History Channel.
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Posted by ericsp on Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:29 AM

 Lyon_Wonder wrote:
This happened back in the 1950s too, at least according to one show about Donner Pass on the History Channel.

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:49 AM

And they cannot find buses because they all went to the Super Bowl.

Someone should build a very special system for rescues in that pass.

The only other thing I know about Donner is signs :Downgrades 40 miles" past that one scale house outside of Reno.

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Posted by hrbdizzle on Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:53 AM
Ha ha! im not laughing at the situation, im laughing at the video on the news.
The guy that says, " what are we doing up here " is a UP employee I believe on the snow fighting service. He works out of my terminal.


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Posted by Kevin C. Smith on Saturday, February 2, 2008 3:48 AM

I clicked on the link but it was still pretty cryptic-a large plow "fell through the tracks"? Huh? Was this a road plow, a bulldozer or a railroad snowplow? Did something fall off a road onto the tracks? Was this a derailment?

What happened?

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Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, February 2, 2008 8:02 AM

....That is sad....The level of communication now should be much better than in years past when something like this happens.  People would be much more tolerant if they would just be updated on what is happening.

"Fell through the tracks"....That is an off the wall bit of info.  No way to know from that what actually has happened.

Fortunately, it seems like food and heat were available and if the passengers would have had a bit of info of their situations, surely that would go a long way to keep them calm.

The Donner Pass incident {passenger train trapped}, of many years ago was with loss of life if I remember correctly....When was that, 1952...??  Haven't looked it up.  It was serious stuff though.

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Posted by jeaton on Saturday, February 2, 2008 8:31 AM

The reporter on the scene must have been ticked off when called out from her hot Friday night date.  With that she finds a passenger who probably complains about the sun coming up in the morning.  Together they make it sound as if Amtrak has just abrogated its god-given power to to just "part the snows" and proceed on as if nothing was wrong. 

They're getting snow falls measured in feet up there.  Even with that the trains themselves aren't stuck, just the problem with the plow, derailed probably.

Just reminds me that I shouldn't complain when I have to move a mere 6 inches of snow off my driveway.  Pay the guy and shut up.Smile [:)]

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Posted by beaulieu on Saturday, February 2, 2008 11:09 AM
The plow is a large Cat Bulldozer being used to scale down the snowbanks alongside the tracks. It was dangling over track 1, dirty underwear moment for the operator. A few inches further to the right and the Cat would have been upside down on the track. A big crane had to be called in to lift the Cat out of its predicament.
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Posted by eolafan on Saturday, February 2, 2008 11:22 AM
Maybe I am in the minority here (who knows?) but I think if I had no time constraints and had nowhere to go in a real hurry...and there was plenty of food on the train...and there was no danger of the heat quitting on the train...and there was sufficient sanitary facilities on the train...and we knew the tracks would be cleared before too long, that such a situation could be viewed as an adventure rather than a really big problem...but that's just me.
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Posted by CTValleyRR on Saturday, February 2, 2008 11:39 AM

Nah, I'm with you, eolafan.  I think it would be fun, unless I had somewhere I really needed to be (like a wedding).  Again, provided there were light, heat, food, and sufficient sanitary facilities.

We too often get a good case of hubris and figure that there's nothing in nature that can stop us.  We need a dose of reality, in the form of a stranded train or even a Hurricane Katrina, to remind us that we are mere fleas beside the elemental forces of this planet.

We should be thankful that, due to ingenuity and technology, we can USUALLY get a train through Donner Pass in the winter (a situation that was certainly not true a hundred years ago), rather than being annoyed that once in a while, Mother Nature decides to show us who's boss.

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Posted by dharmon on Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:00 PM

Just be wary of the new specials in the dining car......

 

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Posted by CG9602 on Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:10 PM
That's it. time to re-route the Zephyr via the ex-WP through the Sierras, at least between Reno and Sacramento. Get it off of Donner Pass.
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Posted by CTValleyRR on Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:15 PM

Why?  Is something wrong with the roadkill?  Besides, if it was good enough for the Donners, why not for us? Dead [xx(].  Besides, they were stranded for six months!

I notice the woman on the news whining about having a contract with Amtrak.  That's a perfect example of what I was talking about in my earlier post.  Anyone who thinks Amtrak (or anyone else, for that matter) can guarantee passage through Donner Pass in the middle of winter is either stupid, insane, or both.

OTOH, I agree with the people who were bitching because Amtrak didn't tell them anything.  Most people would be pretty understanding of being delayed by snow.  The trouble is, officials often want to have good information before they say ANYTHING at all, when sharing what you know, even if you know almost nothing (and admit it) is usually the right course.

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Posted by CTValleyRR on Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:17 PM

 CG9602 wrote:
That's it. time to re-route the Zephyr via the ex-WP through the Sierras, at least between Reno and Sacramento. Get it off of Donner Pass.

 From a pure operations perspective, you're probably right.  However, the scenery there is beautiful, and some of us like the thought of more or less following the same route as the first transcontinental railroad.

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Posted by hrbdizzle on Saturday, February 2, 2008 2:44 PM
The thing about the WP line. Its not perfect either.

The trip would take 4-6 hours more into reno. The Feather River Canyon, is only good for 25, in the summer,spring. When it is raining, and snowing trains have to be broncoed thru the canyon by hyrailer. Sometimes the speed only good for 10 while in bronco.

Lots of landslides, boulders......


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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, February 2, 2008 2:49 PM
 CTValleyRR wrote:

I notice the woman on the news whining about having a contract with Amtrak.  That's a perfect example of what I was talking about in my earlier post.  Anyone who thinks Amtrak (or anyone else, for that matter) can guarantee passage through Donner Pass in the middle of winter is either stupid, insane, or both.

The demeanor of that woman gave the appearance that she would whine even if the train had operated on time....she just wanted to whine and have it imortalized on nationwide TV.

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Posted by Railway Man on Saturday, February 2, 2008 3:00 PM

 CG9602 wrote:
That's it. time to re-route the Zephyr via the ex-WP through the Sierras, at least between Reno and Sacramento. Get it off of Donner Pass.

As also posted to the same question in the Passenger Thread:

The Feather River Canyon route is 3-4 hours slower between Winnemucca and Sacramento, 66 miles longer, has no spare capacity to take a pair of daily Amtraks unless freight trains are pulled off and/or reduced in length, and is highly vulnerable to flooding, washouts, mudslides, and rockslides.  The Feather River Canyon in the last 20 years has had two major floods; the most recent in 1996 closed the canyon for 61 days.

If this is reason to close Donner Pass, we might as well close half of the airports in the U.S. and most of the Interstate Highway System, from October 1 through April 1.  There's no such thing as a perfect, all-weather, all-the-time transportation system.  Donner Pass has historically been much more reliable than other transportation avenues to/from Northern California, if the alternatives are flying (DIA and O'Hare being major hubs feeding to San Francisco on United Airlines, and more frequently closed or seriously delayed than the railroad over Donner Pass), or driving (I-80 being more frequently closed).

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Posted by Nataraj on Saturday, February 2, 2008 3:24 PM
Apparently the trains are now running..... the eastbound train 16 hours late.
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Posted by Poppa_Zit on Saturday, February 2, 2008 3:40 PM

One bright side to this is the amount of snow they have in the mountains this winter, because a lot of the reservoirs out there are low, yes?

On the other matter, I'm with Jim. I'd rather spend 18 hours waiting in a train than at an airport. Sounds like it could be fun.

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Posted by conrailman on Saturday, February 2, 2008 5:47 PM
I love riding late Amtrak trains, I love having more time in Sleeping Car.Big Smile [:D]
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Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, February 2, 2008 6:40 PM

....I would like very much the time in a room or roomette traveling on a train but being stopped for 12 or so hours....In real life, I believe the facilities would start to go south, etc....and that would not be much fun.  In the high rockies in the heart of Winter, could be dangerous.

Have ridden trains accross this great continent and enjoyed it...but I'd like it to be under good normal circumstances.

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Posted by Mr_Ash on Saturday, February 2, 2008 6:56 PM
people these days geez... just wanna smack'm! "Why this why that tell me everything waaa ima sue you! I fail at life waaa"
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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, February 2, 2008 8:46 PM

 Poppa_Zit wrote:
Sounds like it could be fun.
Until they run out of certain adult beverages....

Check out http://video.dot.ca.gov/, specifically "80 at Applegate" - Tahoe area.  It's night as I post this and it still looks nasty.

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Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Saturday, February 2, 2008 10:14 PM

 CG9602 wrote:
That's it. time to re-route the Zephyr via the ex-WP through the Sierras, at least between Reno and Sacramento. Get it off of Donner Pass.

Another good reason for keeping the California Zephyr on the ex SP Donner Pass Line is it serves Reno, NV which provides more traffic potential.

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Posted by miniwyo on Saturday, February 2, 2008 10:43 PM
I don't know why people were angry. Thier needs (food, water, shelter/heat) were being met, sure, they may have been behind schedule...  but still. Also, People need ot realize that it is NOT Amtrak's fault, it is UP's fault, and there is nothing they can do about it because it is like snow plows on the highway, They are there to keep the road clear for your safety......

RJ

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Posted by CG9602 on Saturday, February 2, 2008 11:30 PM
One reason that I've noticed people getting angry about on trains is that they might have expected more definitive information than Amtrak could have provided. The crew was telling the passengers that they would get going whenever UP got there and cleared the track, but what the passengers may have expected was something along the lines of "We'll get going in an hour." Some types of passengers do not tolerate being told that the crew is relying upon Union Pacific, and Amtrak does not own the tracks, and they have no way of knowing when they would get out of there - but they would get going when they can. Also, I've noticed that some crews have no way of distributing information between the conductors and the service crew. Some conductors would be too busy to distribute information to the rest of the crew.
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Posted by conrailman on Saturday, February 2, 2008 11:34 PM
You can't please everyone in this world always 1 or 2 people complain about every little thing in life.My 2 cents [2c]
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, February 3, 2008 6:47 AM
Neither train was trapped in the snow. They were halted because the line was blocked, somewhere west of downtown Truckee and east of Donner Pass.
Amtrak posted this info at 9:30am, Saturday, 2/2/08:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Copy/Simple_Copy_Popup&c=am2Copy&cid=1178294106870


Here's what happened according to a story online from KTVU, Oakland:
http://www.ktvu.com/news/15200710/detail.html

A UP Caterpillar D9 bulldozer with a blade on the front was clearing snow between Reno and Truckee.

It fell through the decking of a rail bridge above the east-west line damaging some rail and blocking the line.

Westbound Train 5 was halted at Truckee on the east side of the bulldozer incident, and then pulled back to Reno where passengers were put up in hotels and then bussed over Donner Pass the next day.

Eastbound Train 6 hadn't gotten too far into the mountains and was halted at Gold Run, quite a ways west of Donner Pass.

Since there are no accommodations available near Gold Run (up hill a bit from Auburn and Colfax and about 60-70 miles from Sacramento), the train was refueled to keep heat and power available.

Amtrak says it spoke to EACH passenger to see what they wanted to do. 60 wanted to be bussed back to the Bay Area. 100 others got a free dinner on the train and waited it out.

UP had to bring in a crane to remove the dozer, then fix the rail and then clear off the snow that had accumulated. Story doesn't say whether that was just near where the dozer fell or all the way across Donner Pass.

Once the line was clear, Train 6 resumed heading east.

Train 5 was (being) turned in Reno and would become the Saturday eastbound train for Chicago. Passengers in the Bay Area (and other Zephyr stops like Sacramento??) were to be bussed over Donner Pass to Reno to meet Train 5 that's now 6.

The KTVU story is the best I've seen on the matter. It explains what happened but it makes two errors:

It has train 5 as heading east—Emeryville-Chicago and train 6 as heading west Chicago-Emeryville, and mistakenly puts Gold Run as "on the border of California and Nevada" when it is actually on the WEST side of the Sierra just up the hill from Auburn and Colfax.

Hope this is helpful in clarifying just what happened. Unfortunately, the stories I read before getting to the KTVU version didn't make clear what was happening.


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Posted by CTValleyRR on Sunday, February 3, 2008 7:31 AM

I saw video footage early yesterday which made it pretty clear that neither train was actually snowbound.

But on the communications issue, while I agree that Amtrak did eventually talk to every passenger, that wasn't the point some were making.  I was on northbound Amtrak train between New York and New Haven CT when we came to an unexpected stop.  We sat there for a couple of minutes, and then the conductor or the engineer got on the PA system and explained that one of the tracks was closed for maintenance and the dispatcher had decided to let a southbound freight proceed ahead of us. He estimated that the wait would be about 20 minutes.  At the 25 minute point, he was back on the PA, telling us that the freight was moving slower than expected and that it would be another 20 minutes, but that he could make up some time between New Haven and Old Saybrook.

Needless to say, we thought it was a stupid reason for a delay, but at least we knew what was going on, and when an expected event didn't occur, we were told why.

I think the real problem is the automobile mentality.  We as Americans are so used to driving and being in control of our destiny (although traffic and construction still cause disruption and delay), that we think air travel and train travel are just like driving, except someone else is doing the work.  People don't or won't take the time to understand a little bit about the logistics of the system (like the fact that Amtrak doesn't own -- or dispatch) most of the track on which it's trains travel, or that Amtrak (and the airlines) have to consider where their vehicles end up, because they need them for other routes on other days.

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