Train crew responsibilities... Can you refuse a train?

[Anonymous]

Was talking to an engineer (won't mention the railroad) who was looking over his train and said, "This is a dangerous train... [all the light weight cars] are up front."

So, a week later and a couple of threads talking about train crew responsibilities... and here I am.

Under what circumstances can a train crew refuse to take out a train?  I ask out of a complete and total lack of knowledge of railroad rules here.  I would suspect that anyone refusing a job would probably end up making a career decision...

Thanks!

PS. As far as I know, "my" engineer took his train out and reached his destination without incident...

[nbrodar]

Outright refusal to take a train, once called, is usually a ticket to an investigation.   However, if there is something genuinely wrong with the train (misplaced HAZMAT, defective locomotive, bad order cars, too many loads/empties together, etc) you have the right and responsiblity not to leave until corrective action is taken.

Boy do I sound like a Company Officer or what.

Also, you can refuse to take a call for a train, if you are not required to protect that service.

Nick

[JoeKoh]

there was a rookie crew outside of willard yard.their train was stuck in a block.anyway the yardmaster asked if they would take another train into the yard then go back to their train.they said no.then the scanner was afire with talk about how much $$ they just gave up.

stay safe

Joe

[zardoz]

I was once given a train at Butler that consisted of 50 empty autorack cars AHEAD of 25 loaded ballast cars and 50 loaded lumber cars.  I told the dispatcher that this was an inherintly dangerous train, and requested that I be allowed to reblock the train before departure.  I was told, in no uncertain terms, that the train will go as is. I immediately went on official record (to both the Terminal Superintendent and the Chief Dispatcher as to the situation, just to cover my tush. 

And what a pain that train was to run!  Not only was it quite long and heavy, it was exceedingly difficult to control the slack.  The only time I used the dynamic was coming down West Allis hill; the rest of the time I just used "stretch" braking.

I did manage to get it to Proviso in one piece, but I sure was glad to put that beast away!

Bottom line: as unsafe as this train was, I was not permitted to refuse it.  nbrodar mentioned that if the blocking was wrong, I had the "right and responsibility" to not leave unless corrective action was initiated; in my case I was just told to "git outa town".

[Limitedclear]

Outright refusal to take a train, once called, is usually a ticket to an investigation.   However, if there is something genuinely wrong with the train (misplaced HAZMAT, defective locomotive, bad order cars, too many loads/empties together, etc) you have the right and responsiblity not to leave until corrective action is taken.

Boy do I sound like a Company Officer or what.

Also, you can refuse to take a call for a train, if you are not required to protect that service.

Nick

Ouch. Yeah, you do sound like a "Company Man".

A couple of examples. Once, as a young engineer I was given a locomotive from a regional sent to  pay off horsepower hours. The brake shoes were all incorrectly installed and were in fact literally falling off the locomotive. I crippled the unit for inadequate effective brakes and was rewarded by a visit from the local trainmaster. He wanted to order me to use it, until I told him I would take the unit only if the order was in writing. I even offered to install the shoes correctly (as I had learned previously working on a short line). The block truck was called and changed the shoes. The comment from the carman was that he was glad we called as he didn't want to spend New Year's Eve picking up a derailment. As he spoke he eyed our train composed of the single unit and 26 loaded coal hoppers for the local power plant.

On another occasion we had an engineer on my crew sarcastically known as "Zephyr Zink" as he was the slowest on the division and was reknowned for crippling all the locomotives in the terminal for FRA defects when he wanted some OT.

So, the justification for refusing a train is and should be questioned by management, but the safety of a train may be legitimately questioned by the crew. With the new legislation and regs concerning good faith challenges by train crews coming, this area of the law and railroading are going to get more complicated.

LC

 

[Anonymous]

 This is where looking over your paperwork very carefully before depature comes in handy. Having hazmats too close to the head is always frowned on. Having too many loads trailing your empties can be a disaster. Also csx had a rule prohibiting having more than 5000 or 6000 trailing tons behind an empty 89' flat. Having a loaded log car next to a tank car is prohibited, as well as having anything protruding over the ends of a flat car. If the train is blocked wrong I tell the yardmaster and trainmaster to cover myself. I know guys who have tried to refuse trains because the cab of the locomotive stunk, or they didn't have AC. Bottom line is if you are gonna refuse to take a train you better have a good reason.

[SFbrkmn]

If you're in unassigned srvice and are called to work, you are required to take the call. Otherwise its laying off on call (LOC). It used to be a simple slap on wrist but now the carriers are calling investigations for LOC's. Now if you're in assigned service, you are not required to protect any other jobs if they should call you. It will be a time slip if you would chose the other assignment than the regular job. Ching, ching good payday on that.

[wabash1]

Was talking to an engineer (won't mention the railroad) who was looking over his train and said, "This is a dangerous train... [all the light weight cars] are up front."

So, a week later and a couple of threads talking about train crew responsibilities... and here I am.

Under what circumstances can a train crew refuse to take out a train?  I ask out of a complete and total lack of knowledge of railroad rules here.  I would suspect that anyone refusing a job would probably end up making a career decision...

Thanks!

PS. As far as I know, "my" engineer took his train out and reached his destination without incident...

the only way you can refuse a train is for it to be against the fra rules . if the engine toilet is not working it becomes a "b" unit if it is the only unit then watch them get you another unit quick. just because the train is built crappy is no reason to refuse it make them aware of it then go out and tear it up. make it legal, its more fun that way,

[CShaveRR]

the only way you can refuse a train is for it to be against the fra rules . if the engine toilet is not working it becomes a "b" unit if it is the only unit then watch them get you another unit quick. just because the train is built crappy is no reason to refuse it make them aware of it then go out and tear it up. make it legal, its more fun that way.

Always thinking, those FRA rule-makers.  So when your improperly-built train runs the slack in on you and you go into emergency, you're assured that the nose-potty is all ready for your urgent move in that direction!

[Soo 6604]

You should see some of the trains that the CN sends thru Neenah Wis. Especially 342. The other week the train consisted of 18 empty 70' TTX flatcars followed by numerous lumber loads and potash/grain loads. I've seen northbounds with empty center beams and then a huge block of loaded CSX hoppers (phosphate?).

Isn't the CN known for ****-poor train make-ups out in BC? Wasn't there a train derailment in Chicago of a train with center beams that was pulled of a curve just like on your train layout?

Paul

[trainboyH16-44]

Don't even get me started on CN...a few months ago, they had a derailment from running a long (over 120 cars) train on a sub with 2.2% grades and 12 degree curves. Sounds bad, doesn't it? Nah. Not yet. They then proceeded to put empties up front as well as five (FIVE!) units on the headend, with 2 DPU locos which were, ironically, shut down.

If the crew wasn't allowed to refuse to take that train, there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with the rules! 

[youngengineer]

locals tend to be exempt from train makeup rules, but this doesnt mean you intentionally go out and make it a bad train , you try to get it close to compliance, this would be short long drawbar, weight distribution. HAZMAT, air brakes, car defects, loco defects, these should never be overlooked. I have refused to take trains before, but you better have all your ducks in a row if you do refuse the train, and you better be right about the rule you are refusing over, I've seen crews refuse trains to later be shown the rule didnt exist or they mis-interperted the rule. Biggies, are hazmat and air tests, also locomotives. I have only had to fight about one train generally someone either trainmaster, or chief dispatcher will try to get things set straight.

But also have seen crews leave a terminal and thye never even looked at the cars they took. Kinda hard to explain why you took 10 track instead of 9 track, or you didnt pick up all your cars.

[coborn35]

The CN loves to put empty centerbeams up front with loads in the back and then go around a wye or two.

[nbrodar]

A couple clarifications about my remarks...

Some aspects of train make up are governed by the FRA - HAZMAT placement, Air Brake rules (also called the Power Brake Law), most locomotive issues.   Any issues with these areas must be corrected before the train leaves. 

Other aspects, such as load/empty blocking, are a company matter.  You can be ordered out with a non-complying train by a company officer, but you better have his/her name in writing ordering you out, in case something happens.

Nick

[CShaveRR]

UP's long/short regulations and load/empty regulations both changed a few months ago, with the new System Special Instructions.  In a hump yard, we can't do much about where the tonnage falls when we're classifying the cars, but we can deal with long/short matchups (which aren't illegal under all circumstances).  If we don't, the other end has to.

I wish I could state whether anyone's refused to take out a train because of makeup concerns, but I don't normally hear about such things.

[rrnut282]

Here's where the big turntable would help a yardmaster out.

[al-in-chgo]

Along with the host RR and the FRA, is there some way to put an "official" complaint on file with the union local?  Along with general CYA theory, is there another avenue to indicate that you have been ordered to take the train out despite what you think is an inherently dangerous condition? 

"Told ya so" is not a very satisfying riposte to a rail tragedy, but it might save someone's career.  - al

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know how many times I have had a empty flat car right up front with over 10,000 tons behind it . I guess all the railroads care about is if the train is blocked right for destination purposes , not for train handling .

[Anonymous]

Ive refused some loads in my time on the road. Generally they always had the option of firing me and putting someone else in the truck. Sometimes they exercised that option. But I aint the one shafted with that load. Then again there were some memorable loads I should have refused. Equiptment was not an option unless ye were out of fuel, suffering computer problems (Hell, way back when there were NOT any electronics other than the CB radio.) etc. That is all Im going to say about this, dont want to derail this wonderful thread.

 I do watch the trains that I have to wait at the crossing. Some of those are usually under tension coming off the slight grade in my area but the southbound ones worry me when there are empty flats or other items with alot of weight behind them because there are two potential signals downgrade and they jump or shiver a little when braking is put on.

[rsovitzky]

zardoz,

I like to sit at the south end of Butler yard if something's going on, with my scanner.

Can you say what the train abbreviations mean? I think there's a BUPR, for example, which I assume is Butler to Proviso. But there are a bunch more.

Sorry for buttin' in here, but when I saw 'Butler', I perked up.

Rick

[zardoz]

zardoz,

I like to sit at the south end of Butler yard if something's going on, with my scanner.

Can you say what the train abbreviations mean? I think there's a BUPR, for example, which I assume is Butler to Proviso. But there are a bunch more.

Sorry for buttin' in here, but when I saw 'Butler', I perked up.

Rick

Rick,

While it has been a few years since I rode the rails, and from what I understand, quite a few designations have changed since my time, the few I can remember are:

MITPR=Manifest ITasca to PRoviso
MPRIT=Manifest PRoviso to ITasca
SHC=Sheboygan Coal
GB=Green Bay
AD=Adams
JV=Janesville
FD=Fond du Lac
OK=Oak Creek
KE=Kenosha
HA=Harvard
MA=Madison(WI)
MI=Mitchell Yard (Milwaukee)

The coal trains have various designations related to the originating mine (i.e. BT=Black Thunder), so a BTSHC would be a Black Thunder to Sheboygan coal load.

I hope this helps.

[jeffhergert]

zardoz,

I like to sit at the south end of Butler yard if something's going on, with my scanner.

Can you say what the train abbreviations mean? I think there's a BUPR, for example, which I assume is Butler to Proviso. But there are a bunch more.

Sorry for buttin' in here, but when I saw 'Butler', I perked up.

Rick

Rick,

While it has been a few years since I rode the rails, and from what I understand, quite a few designations have changed since my time, the few I can remember are:

MITPR=Manifest ITasca to PRoviso
MPRIT=Manifest PRoviso to ITasca
SHC=Sheboygan Coal
GB=Green Bay
AD=Adams
JV=Janesville
FD=Fond du Lac
OK=Oak Creek
KE=Kenosha
HA=Harvard
MA=Madison(WI)
MI=Mitchell Yard (Milwaukee)

The coal trains have various designations related to the originating mine (i.e. BT=Black Thunder), so a BTSHC would be a Black Thunder to Sheboygan coal load.

I hope this helps.

The C in the symbols for a coal train appear first , like in CNASH for a load or CSHNA for an empty hopper.

Jeff

[Anonymous]

I have had to switch a few trains into complince before so on that note you cant refuse one. I have seen other engineers not want to take a particular locomotive out on the point so they just switch it out with a better one in the consist.

[CNW 6000]

I have had to switch a few trains into complince before so on that note you cant refuse one. I have seen other engineers not want to take a particular locomotive out on the point so they just switch it out with a better one in the consist.

I've heard that it's tough to break up a MU and make a MU work.  Is it that easy to rearrange the way locos are oriented for a train?

[zardoz]

The C in the symbols for a coal train appear first , like in CNASH for a load or CSHNA for an empty hopper.

Jeff

You are correct regarding the "C" going in front; however, isn't there a different designation for the empties? Back when I was there, they used to be defined by an "X" at the end of the code (i.e. SHBTX for a Sheboygan-Black Thunder empty)?

[Anonymous]

any company officer that orders a crew to take a train that is not properly blocked is an idiot...how many times have we seen cities virtually shut down after a derailment?..if there is HazMat involved the litigation can be staggering for the railroad..I would imagine that any manager who had a part in this type of stupid blunder would be looking for a job...that being said, I occasionally hear of crews that are told to take a train  that is non compliant...they seldom refuse to be insubordinant, because job insurance won't pay for this , so thay take the train "under protest".

[rsovitzky]

What about Oak Creek power and the plant near Pleasant Prairie? I tried Google Earth but could not tell if the CP branched into Pleasant Prairie. I noticed CP and UP run right next to the plant. Which railroad services these? What would the train name be if so?

Thanks...

Rick

[chefjavier]

http://www.csx-sucks.com/pictures/?MMR.jpg

Or the company could give you this statement...

[zardoz]

What about Oak Creek power and the plant near Pleasant Prairie? I tried Google Earth but could not tell if the CP branched into Pleasant Prairie. I noticed CP and UP run right next to the plant. Which railroad services these? What would the train name be if so?

Thanks...

Rick

Rick, the Pleasant Prairie power plant is mainly served by the UP.  Many years ago, WE Energies built an access track for the CP in to the plant, but have not (as far as I know) ever used it for coal deliveries, but I believe they have used it for heavy equipment delivery.   I believe it was installed back when UP was having difficulty meeting delivery promises.  The CP built a control point there, calling it WEPCO.

 If you use Mapquest, and use 8000 95th Street, 53158, and switch to aerial view, you can see the power plant.  You can even see the Sturtevant Patrol (wayfreight) on the CP main near WEPCO. 

[rsovitzky]

Thanks a bunch, zardoz...

Rick