Why is Tehachapi Loop so much more popular than the Williams Loop on the Feather River Route?

[Doublestack]

Is it the proximity to population?  The fact that BNSF and UP run over Tehachapi?  The volume?

I was looking at a map of the Williams Loop this weekend it looks pretty interesting as well.  Same basic principle.   Perhaps at Tehachapi, its easier to see the whole loop from the roadway above it to the SW?

Just curious what others think.

Stack

[Modelcar]

.....I've wondered the same thing.  Really don't know very much about Williams Loop though.  Would be an interesting location to look up on a satellite image.

Believe Trains had an article on it years ago.

[trainboyH16-44]

What I wonder is why people are always talking about how the loop itself is such an engineering achievement...it's a circle, guys. It's not that hard! The line as a hole is pretty wicked engineering-wise, but so are most mountain passes.

Come on guys, the Spiral Tunnels! That's where it's at!  

[DSchmitt]

Tehachapi Loop is more popular because: 

1) Proximity to population centers

2) More visibility, a number of accessable vantage points, and the view is not obscured by trees or by a hill. The best way to appreciate Williams Loop is to walk into the middle of it, so you can tell its a loop and see about 2/3 of the way around it. 

3)  More trains and greater varity on Tehachapi.

[Semper Vaporo]

What I wonder is why people are always talking about how the loop itself is such an engineering achievement...it's a circle, guys. It's not that hard! The line as a hole is pretty wicked engineering-wise, but so are most mountain passes.

Come on guys, the Spiral Tunnels! That's where it's at!  

Yes, it is just a circle, but it is somewhat counter-intuitive to think that to get from one place to another that you would have to travel in a circle.  Most people, looking at a MAP do not see the elevation change, so the circle looks kinda silly, and the realization of the need to control the "grade" makes it fascinating.  And a Loop that you can "See" holds more fascination than a spiral tunnel where you can only see one end at a time.

But, the engineering required to make a spiral tunnel is wonderful to contemplate, but I can do that in my living room as well as at either end of the tunnel and it costs lots less to just sit here than to travel to the location and not see all that much more than I can think of.

[Modelcar]

....I would agree, exact engineering was required to successfully produce the Spiral tunnel...{Have never been there to see it}, but on using the circle to gain elevation and do the figuring where it will fit and that it is designed sizewise to allow it to be a usable curving grade without causing trouble....and more concerns than I would know about, would need to have some pretty serious engineering and final details to make a successful alignment.  My

[JSGreen]

Well, being there to see it doesn't give you much more of the details needed to apprecaite the engineering....but there is a great roadside stop on the TransCan with an interpretative center, charts, and other items which help you to appreciate the marvel!

A recommended trip, if you get the opportunity.  The Canadian Rockies are magnificant.  And if you go that far from the east, go just a little farther to the summit of the TransCan, and visit the historic area, where the train used to go...another pretty good feat was tunneling throught the mountain to get away from all the avalanches with which they were plaqued.  I dont recall how long the tunnel is, I don't think it approaches world record length, but most people only know about it because of the route it "Used to take".  

And if you get all the way over to Canmore Revelstoke, there is a really nice RR museum...lots of cool stuff, including one of those "spreaders" they talk about in the snow removal thread... 

(edited to correct an error due to Medula Flatulence.  Canmore is on the east edge of the rockies, at the entrance to the National Park (Bamf?).  Revelstoke is Farther west, past Kicking Horse Pass, the location of the spiral tunnels) 

[BaltACD]

....I would agree, exact engineering was required to successfully produce the Spiral tunnel...{Have never been there to see it}, but on using the circle to gain elevation and do the figuring where it will fit and that it is designed sizewise to allow it to be a usable curving grade without causing trouble....and more concerns than I would know about, would need to have some pretty serious engineering and final details to make a successful alignment.  My

And to do all that engineering on horseback during the 19th Century when your largest earth mover was the strongest back of the strongest immigrant wielding a pick and shovel and pack animals to haul away the spoils.  All done by a person(s) that could have no conception of what demands the following hundred years and more would place upon the alignment selected.  The engineering applied to originally construct the railroads, for the time that it occurred, is utterly amazing from today's vantage point.

[Erie Lackawanna]

Not a complete loop, but if you ever have a chance, the Redondo Loops in Baja California are fascinating too.  Hard to railfan... there's an occasinal excursion train over them and there is some freight service with some UP GEEPs.

[Erie Lackawanna]

Here's a shot from the top of the Redondo Loop, looking down to the bottom of it.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=214745&nseq=4

 

[Railway Man]

....I would agree, exact engineering was required to successfully produce the Spiral tunnel...{Have never been there to see it}, but on using the circle to gain elevation and do the figuring where it will fit and that it is designed sizewise to allow it to be a usable curving grade without causing trouble....and more concerns than I would know about, would need to have some pretty serious engineering and final details to make a successful alignment.  My

And to do all that engineering on horseback during the 19th Century when your largest earth mover was the strongest back of the strongest immigrant wielding a pick and shovel and pack animals to haul away the spoils.  All done by a person(s) that could have no conception of what demands the following hundred years and more would place upon the alignment selected.  The engineering applied to originally construct the railroads, for the time that it occurred, is utterly amazing from today's vantage point.

Several steps here --

1.  Observing the original problem of the unsatisfactory alignment and deciding what to do -- not hard if you have an open mind and deep pockets of experience.  Quite a bit of trial and error pencilwork on a topographic map.  This is the fun step.

2.  Executing the engineering alignment of the spiral tunnels on paper -- not hard.   A junior office engineer would do it. 

3.  Surveying the alignment to make sure the headings are progressing in the proper direction with constant changes in vertical and horizontal alignment -- extremely hard, especially because it usually has to occur right on top of the ongoing mining or tunneling work and there are all sorts of atmospheric distortions in tunnels.  Not fun at all, career-ending risk and very little reward.  Ask Mr. Mudchicken.

4.  Driving the tunnels -- general mining work unless the geology is ugly.  No fun in any case.

RWM

[chad thomas]

As mentioned, nearness to population, traffic density and visibility.

Williams loop has lots of trees around it. Makes it not much different then any other piece of track, loop or not. Also the local kids have been known to hang out and get wild down there. Doesn't bother me much but could be quite intimidateing to a visitor.

Niether one impresses me as much as Arnold loop east of Wendover on the ex WP. But you might have to wait a while to see any traffic on it. 

 

[mudchicken]

Kinda partial to the Ribera, NM loop even though it does not cross over itself (close, but no cigar?)