Rochelle Diamond Games

[David3]

When you watch the Rochelle camera sometimes or go there do you notice that when UP has a train going in one direction they sometimes go slow to hold the diamond for another UP train? I've seen it go on and on, and the poor BNSF trains have to sit and wait during all of this. Does anybody know why BNSF doesn't do the same back to UP besides that the BNSF line through there isn't that busy? Just Curious.
Dave [:D][:D]

[michaelstevens]

Could it be that CN&W was there first (before the CB&Q ?) --

and Uncle Pete has inherited the pre-eminence ?

[David3]

That could be true but I'm not sure. I always thought that the CNW was there first. Also if UP is about 1 mile out they get the signal but BNSF gets it if they are only a half a mile out. There's something wrong with that too.
Dave [:D][:D]

[CShaveRR]

The reason for the disparity in signal distances could have a bit to do with the maximum speeds on the respective lines.

As for slowing down to give an opposing train a chance, this is probably something that's done by the engineers themselves. Wouldn't you appreciate the opportunity to not sit at the crossing? I'm sure that BNSF does the same thing when the occasion presents itself (yes, sometimes two BNSF trains will get there close enough to each other for that!).

[UPTRAIN]

I guess the UP is just better. [;)]

[David3]

Yes UPTRAIN I have to admit, they are! [(-D]
Dave

[jeaton]

Anyone know Who controls the the crossing?

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

Anyone know Who controls the the crossing?

From what I've read, it's first come, first served on access. Whoever hits the circuit first gets to go. There is no "outside" control, as in a dispatcher somewhere.

As for physical control (as in maintenance, etc), I'm sure there is a rather detailed agreement between the two companies on who does what and who pays for what.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

Anyone know Who controls the the crossing?

From what I've read, it's first come, first served on access. Whoever hits the circuit first gets to go. There is no "outside" control, as in a dispatcher somewhere.

As for physical control (as in maintenance, etc), I'm sure there is a rather detailed agreement between the two companies on who does what and who pays for what.

The first sentence got my attention! Really! Kind of like stop lights with a strip to change the lights. Somehow, that seems too simplistic for something as big as trains. And something as dangerous as a diamond.

Mookie

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

First come, first served is indeed the situation on automatic interlockings. Since most automatic interlockings involve a crossing with no route selection involved, this isn't as bad as it seems. The home signals are always set at Stop (absolute) until a train hits the approach circuit. If there is no conflicting movement, the train receives the appropriate signal to pass through the interlocking.

[David3]

Do you know where the approach circuits are on the railroads in Rochelle?
Dave

[jeaton]

Larry,

Thanks. I thought that might be the case, but was wondering in view of the high volumn of traffic at the crossing.

[CShaveRR]

I'm not sure how far away these circuits are on the BNSF, but the circuit is five miles east of the diamond and four miles west of the diamond on the UP. A train passing these points (there is an "approach clear" signpost there) and maintaining his speed will have the route lined up for him if there is no BNSF train in their circuit.

However, there must be a timing device that comes into play and releases the interlocking after too much time has elapsed. A UP train passing those "approach clear" signs at 25 mph or less, or slowing to that speed after passing the signs, must then be ready to stop at the diamond until he gets to a point 600 feet away (and presumably can see the aspect of the home signal). Eastbound, this would affect any train that has anything to do with Global 3.

BNSF might have something similar. Their distant signal (westbound, anyway) is closer to the diamond than UP's, but they have a yard just to the east of there, and it must still be within their circuit. Their circuits have to be well beyond the distant signal, or that signal would never be able to give a clear indication.

I just know I can look forward to glazed Mook's-eyes for lunch!

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

I'm not sure how far away these circuits are on the BNSF, but the circuit is five miles east of the diamond and four miles west of the diamond on the UP. A train passing these points (there is an "approach clear" signpost there) and maintaining his speed will have the route lined up for him if there is no BNSF train in their circuit.

However, there must be a timing device that comes into play and releases the interlocking after too much time has elapsed. A UP train passing those "approach clear" signs at 25 mph or less, or slowing to that speed after passing the signs, must then be ready to stop at the diamond until he gets to a point 600 feet away (and presumably can see the aspect of the home signal). Eastbound, this would affect any train that has anything to do with Global 3.

BNSF might have something similar. Their distant signal (westbound, anyway) is closer to the diamond than UP's, but they have a yard just to the east of there, and it must still be within their circuit. Their circuits have to be well beyond the distant signal, or that signal would never be able to give a clear indication.

I just know I can look forward to glazed Mook's-eyes for lunch!

[X-)] I got the first and last sentences!

[Mookie]

Ok - so does this work 100% of the time? Have there been any mis-bobbles due to weather, signal failure - can't include human error, because there can always be a problem due to human error. But electronics aren't always totally reliable either.....I know from my puter!

Moo

[tree68]

There was a story in a recent issue of Trains, I believe, about two trains that hit a similar circuit at exactly the same time. Who went first was determined by coin toss...

And, of course, there is the rule that if the signal is dark, it's absolute red...

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

There was a story in a recent issue of Trains, I believe, about two trains that hit a similar circuit at exactly the same time. Who went first was determined by coin toss...

And, of course, there is the rule that if the signal is dark, it's absolute red...

Well, of course - What was La Mook thinking - ! A very simple way to solve a complex problem - in both cases!

[techguy57]

Great and interesting information[:)], BUT I thought someone had thought up a game to be played when watching the webcam. You know like, "I spy a GT box car," or something to that effect![:p][;)]
Mike

[mudchicken]

To answer the other question as to who pays for the maintenance and signal spaghetti at a crossing, it's usually (but not always) the railroad that got there last. (Oh the wars I've seen over [censored] crossing frogs!...)Contracts and agreements can be thousands of pages long for one of these things[zzz]. IronKen and mudchicken are both well aware how frighteningly expensive (they don't call 'em diamond$ for nuthin!) at-grade crossings can be. If you were to replace the trackwork you see at Rochelle, replacement cost for just the crossing frog materials could run beyond $1.5 million easilly ($350,000 ea. for the custom built booggers, nothing comes off the shelf) and they are some of the brittlest/ weakest parts of the track structure - 1st thing to break! (because of the constant pounding over the flangeway gaps in the frogs)

Mudchicken[banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead]

[espeefoamer]

Rats! When I saw the heading"Rochelle Diamond Games"I thought BNSF & UP had built a baseball diamond at the crossing,and I could watch a ball game there and watch trains at the same time![:(!]

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken
If you were to replace the trackwork you see at Rochelle, replacement cost for just the crossing frog materials could run beyond $1.5 million easilly ($350,000 ea. for the custom built booggers, nothing comes off the shelf) and they are some of the brittlest/ weakest parts of the track structure - 1st thing to break! (because of the constant pounding over the flangeway gaps in the frogs)

Mudchicken[banghead]

I may not always see trains at Rochelle, but I can almost always count on seeing an MOW truck or two and somebody standing amongst the diamonds.

[David3]

Yeah I know after all them trains pounding the diamond there's a track worker grinding it almost everyday!
Dave [:D][:D]

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Hammond crossing in Indiana used to be a real maintenance nightmare. IHB crossed N&W, EL and Monon in downtown Hammond and some of the diamonds were located in the middle of Hohman Avenue. Traffic on IHB was incredibly heavy and it was not unusual in spring to see some lanes of Hohman Avenue blocked while the diamonds were being re-ballasted and re-graded.

The situation has improved a bit from a maintenance perspective. The EL and Monon lines have been abandoned and Hohman Avenue is now an overpass.

[zardoz]

Another diamond that takes a pounding is Deval Tower on the UP(CNW) Milwaukee sub, where it crosses the Metra commuter line and the CN(WC). The diamond is built over a swamp, and is constantly in need of ballast, as the old ballast just continues to get pounded into the swamp as the trains cross. The story goes that many moons ago, when the diamond was being built, maintenance crews dumped carload after carload of ballast at the location, just to watch the ballast sink into the mud. Supposedly it took two entire ballast trains to get a solid footing.

BTW, this diamond IS manually controlled. Trains must call the tower operator for authorization to pass the "approach clear" points. And there is a cerfew for freight trains during the morning and evening (suburban train) rush hours.

[CShaveRR]

Another place that used to have nasty-looking diamonds (talk about custom-made!) coupled with street traffic was Griffith, Indiana, at Broad Street. What a place that was for variety. The date the real fun ended: April 1, 1976.

[Mookie]

So with all the talk of how actually dangerous these diamonds can be, why isn't the Rochelle one protected by both signals and a human? Do you feel that is just over-kill?
Maybe Rochelle is just a very safe diamond?

Mookie

[techguy57]

Zardoz- I'd be willing to bet that stuff about Deval is 100% true. I'm ballparking here, but if I remember this whole area up here was something like 20% swampland,40% forest and 40%prairie originally . Seems like the UP guys are always dumping ballast on the line somewhere. I used to live in Woodstock, IL which has two claims to fame: It was where the movie Groundhog Day was filmed and Is home of the Historic Woodstock Opera House, the hotel in the movie, but I digress. Woodstock is kinda like the castle of the swamp in Monty Python in the Holy Grail, practically the whole town is built on swampland. (I don't think much of it has burned down and sunk into the swamp though) When you think of northern Illinois most people wouldn't think of swamps but thats the truth. With all the traffic at Deval, especially the METRA, it has to be a nightmare for MOW crews.

Mike

[rrnut282]

I can't remember if there are any connecting tracks at Rochelle. If there isn't, and it's just a straight-through crossing with no connecting tracks, the potential for complicated movements requiring a human to think them out is not very big, so a human-occupied tower wasn't required.

[CShaveRR]

These automatic interlockings are completely safe. The argument about two trains hitting their circuits at the same time is extremely unlikely (and would make a good argument in favor of circuits of different lengths on the different railroads...even if they hit the circuit at the same time, they'd be unlikely to hit the diamond at the same time, therefore one would get--surprise!--a red home signal.

Deval is a little more complicated: the plant has three routes (three sets of diamonds) instead of two (one), plus that operator has to control interlockings at Norma and Seeger (junctions with the UP main lines).

(Deval was the first Chicagoland hot spot I ever visited, even before I moved down here.)

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrnut282

I can't remember if there are any connecting tracks at Rochelle. If there isn't, and it's just a straight-through crossing with no connecting tracks, the potential for complicated movements requiring a human to think them out is not very big, so a human-occupied tower wasn't required.

There is a siding visible on the left side of the screen, on the south BNSF track. It leads away from the diamond, however, and I'm sure that anything coming off that track has to pull back beyond the signal bridge before moving across the diamond.

As with any such control, it's only as good as the people using it.