mudchicken wrote: wgnrr wrote: UP is pulling CWR off of the mainlines in Nebraska, and Iowa almost continously. This CWR is not bad, but it doesn't meet the demands of the 70mph running that some trains do. So, UP has this rail that is perfectly fine for the 40mph that they do in Wisconsin. A few months, and they can have about 150 miles of rail replaced at only labor costs to them.When they were done replacing the jointed rail with CWR in Oxford, WI, I was able to catch the train with all of the MOW equipment heading to a new destination. After the train went by, the foreman for the operation offered me a ride to my house. I told him that I was going to be picked up by the highway, so he gave me a ride. He showed me how to read the rail, and how the track gangs put a number code on every piece of CWR they install. I asked him why they would invest so much money into a line, when they can't go very fast on it.He said that CWR is always being retired on the "racetracks" as he called them, and the rail still has years of life in it yet. So, they replace the jointed rail on the small lines. It is less labor intensive, prevents derailments (I have seen a few down here that were caused by a faulty rail joints), is smoother, and they can go faster (but not too fast) on the line. That joint that you had a picture of is the reason why CWR is better.PhilThe concept is called "cascading" rail that is not condemnable. ....Along with the labor costs for the rail comes the issue of changing the OTM (plates, spikes, etc.) to accomodate that rail .You cannot lay 136# rail in 115# plates. You can't lay 115 lb rail in 90 lb plates. Got new anchors to go with all that new heavier rail? ...the issues become many. Lots of that cascaded rail sits idle for months/years because of lack of the associated OTM to put it back in service.
wgnrr wrote: UP is pulling CWR off of the mainlines in Nebraska, and Iowa almost continously. This CWR is not bad, but it doesn't meet the demands of the 70mph running that some trains do. So, UP has this rail that is perfectly fine for the 40mph that they do in Wisconsin. A few months, and they can have about 150 miles of rail replaced at only labor costs to them.When they were done replacing the jointed rail with CWR in Oxford, WI, I was able to catch the train with all of the MOW equipment heading to a new destination. After the train went by, the foreman for the operation offered me a ride to my house. I told him that I was going to be picked up by the highway, so he gave me a ride. He showed me how to read the rail, and how the track gangs put a number code on every piece of CWR they install. I asked him why they would invest so much money into a line, when they can't go very fast on it.He said that CWR is always being retired on the "racetracks" as he called them, and the rail still has years of life in it yet. So, they replace the jointed rail on the small lines. It is less labor intensive, prevents derailments (I have seen a few down here that were caused by a faulty rail joints), is smoother, and they can go faster (but not too fast) on the line. That joint that you had a picture of is the reason why CWR is better.Phil
UP is pulling CWR off of the mainlines in Nebraska, and Iowa almost continously. This CWR is not bad, but it doesn't meet the demands of the 70mph running that some trains do. So, UP has this rail that is perfectly fine for the 40mph that they do in Wisconsin. A few months, and they can have about 150 miles of rail replaced at only labor costs to them.
When they were done replacing the jointed rail with CWR in Oxford, WI, I was able to catch the train with all of the MOW equipment heading to a new destination. After the train went by, the foreman for the operation offered me a ride to my house. I told him that I was going to be picked up by the highway, so he gave me a ride. He showed me how to read the rail, and how the track gangs put a number code on every piece of CWR they install. I asked him why they would invest so much money into a line, when they can't go very fast on it.
He said that CWR is always being retired on the "racetracks" as he called them, and the rail still has years of life in it yet. So, they replace the jointed rail on the small lines. It is less labor intensive, prevents derailments (I have seen a few down here that were caused by a faulty rail joints), is smoother, and they can go faster (but not too fast) on the line. That joint that you had a picture of is the reason why CWR is better.
Phil
The concept is called "cascading" rail that is not condemnable. ....Along with the labor costs for the rail comes the issue of changing the OTM (plates, spikes, etc.) to accomodate that rail .
You cannot lay 136# rail in 115# plates. You can't lay 115 lb rail in 90 lb plates. Got new anchors to go with all that new heavier rail? ...the issues become many. Lots of that cascaded rail sits idle for months/years because of lack of the associated OTM to put it back in service.
So, Union Pacific is really putting quite a bit of money into this line. The 'cascaded' rail as you call it, sat along the tracks for nearly 1 1/2 years before being installed--it wasn't anything instant.
Dan
We have our foul points marked with - yellow paint. And often on the joints.
I was standing in front of the Rantoul, IL station once during the 70's, wondering if that locomotive coming up the track toward me was going to sway back, or keep coming over. It swayed back. Still scared the daylights out of me.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
CNW 6000 wrote:Does each major 'sub' have it's own forces that do this work (rotating to where it needs to be done) or do the RRs contract out?
The Class 1's and some of the Class 2's are still heavilly union, which implies a headquartered gang (section) and then you still have the extra gangs/ production gangs running around with the big project/ speciallized equipment forces. Steel gang/ Tie Gang/Surfacing Gang etc.....All the railroads have to annually report to FRA how the maintenance/ inspection forces are allocated and distributed across the railroad (Section Limits Statement). The bigger railroads will contract out only where they don't have the equipment or expertise. The individual politics of each organisation somewhat determines who does what. The small lines are all over the board and usually lack even the most basic of equipment and know-how.
Very educational thread so far.
Would there be any reason to/not to put 'stick' rail on concrete ties? I know I've seen CWR on wooden ties.
As far as switches go, have there been any changes in how they're made that are noteworthy? Or is that one of those 'it's not broken so why fix it' things?
I have never seen stick rail on concrete ties; I suspose it would work, but what's the point of putting stick rail on a concrete tie? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of them?
Union Pacific uses 'gangs'. I believe the gang that took care of the CWR here was UP Gang 9001 out of Omaha, but I can't remember whether it was the 9001 or not (They have a few of them in the 9000 series)
UP is contracting out the removal of the old rail, plates, ect to the Tie Yard of Omaha, which uses it's own hy-rail crane/truck and a cart. I think that they have finished the clean-up here, but as far as I know, the truck is still sitting in Oxford.
Trust me, that aint that bad at all...if the bolts in the joint bar are tight, I'd hit it 30...
One the other hand, this is what happens when the MOW guys let the bolts in a joint bar and in a guard rail get lose, and the track gages out...you end up picking a switch in a crossover.
Monday really sucked....
23 17 46 11
Ed,
What do you do in a situation like that? Is that something that you can re-rail fairly easily, or do you have to bring in a crane to put her back on the tracks?
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
wgnrr wrote:I have never seen stick rail on concrete ties
One Roadmaster, along with five MOW guys, about a dozen hardwood wedges, and myself and my engineer got it back on the rails in under an hour...shop guys checked the locomotive to make sure the traction motors were fine, then they OK'ed the motor to return to service.
Then I spent another hour drinking coffee and watching the MOW guys make the problem disappear.
CopCarSS wrote: Ed,What do you do in a situation like that? Is that something that you can re-rail fairly easily, or do you have to bring in a crane to put her back on the tracks?
edblysard wrote: Then I spent another hour drinking coffee and watching the MOW guys make the problem disappear.
I hope they thanked you for pointing out the problem, and/or making it easier to spot!
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
ed-
How often do things like that happen where you are? How often (ballpark) do things go on the ground: locos/cars?
If you mean how often on my railroad, this stuff seems to run in cycles.
Same spot, same locomotive, same shift with the same crew three weeks ago and the same basic thing happened, rear truck climbed the switch point and hit the ground.
Yard derailments like this are common, I would bet you my next paycheck that in the time it takes you to read this post, some where, in someone's yard, a locomotive or a car hits the ground.
Not because we, railroaders in general, are careless or not doing our job properly, but simply because yard tracks take a tremendous beating compared to main lines.
And the slow speeds we run at will find every defect, low spot, chipped or broken switch point...you know where every frog with a worn point is...every loose joint bar, and every flat spot is...
Keep in mind most yards use jointed rail, with thousands of joint bars in a few square miles, all have to be checked and tightened on a continuing basis, and all done, usually, under traffic.
Unless you have a huge MOW force, things get missed, or put on the back burner...and often, this is the result...a derailment at 2 or 3 mph...a good gouge in the ties and the really bad spot being found and repaired.
I know, it sounds silly, waiting till something goes wrong before addressing the problem, but sometimes, you don't know there is a problem till you get on the ground.
Take this incident...we shoved back and doubled over through that same crossover at least five times...and it waited till we were light motor and getting back on our side of the yard to crap out under our locomotive.
Short lines and class 3 roads don't have the MOW forces or the funds to check every joint bar or switch point, tighten the thousands of bolts involved with yard tracks...so unless a crew reports a problem, it will not be addressed unless they have a rotating crew that is dedicated to just this yard and just this purpose.
No one has the money for that.
Mow Roadmasters on a short line or class 3 carry a re-rail frog, wedges, spikes and a maul in the back of their truck just because of things like this...and most yard crews are pretty god at getting stuff back on the rail.
If you look at photos of older model switchers they all have a length of chain and a re-rail frog hanging under the frame...they take the tools to get stuff back up on the rails with them.
Now, keep in mind these things are slow speed, I mean really slow speed derailments...most of the time the car or the locomotive suffers no damage.
Great insight and comments. I swear I learn so much from you 'rails' that it's scary some times.
Is it "easier" to stay on the rails at speed? Or is that dependant on how bad the defect is as to whether or not the unit/car will hit the ground?
zardoz wrote: Slightly OT (but slightly related):I've always thought that the guy who supervises highway road repairs should have to drive around in an old Jeep CJ5, instead of a new Suburban (or whatever big vehicle they use). Perhaps then the boss would feel what a crappy condition the roads are in.
Slightly OT (but slightly related):
I've always thought that the guy who supervises highway road repairs should have to drive around in an old Jeep CJ5, instead of a new Suburban (or whatever big vehicle they use). Perhaps then the boss would feel what a crappy condition the roads are in.
Zardoz - Or, the guy who supervises repairs should ride in one of the older, smallest Japanese pickups at 70 miles an hour for 9 or 10 hours. The wheelbase is nearly as short as the CJ5, the narrow track plus the ruts in the asphalt make it hard to control, and the concrete springs can make your internal organs swap places.
mudchicken wrote:Perception vs. RealityMethinks you exagerate more than just a tad. Rail detectors, geometry cars, liteslice, random freight car impact detectors and corrugation analyzers would have umasked something that bad long ago. Uncle Pete woulda put some secondhand CWR out there long ago or dropped the track to Class 1 (10 MPH) if the conditions you described were out there on consecutive runs (no matter what local supervision said - Big Yellow is zero tolerance obsessive like that, and they have resource$ that CNW would never have had). The FRA guys woulda caught it too , independent of UP. (and you don't leave paint and other markings out there to make it easier for FRA to find unless you have addressed the situation)....
Perception vs. Reality
Methinks you exagerate more than just a tad. Rail detectors, geometry cars, liteslice, random freight car impact detectors and corrugation analyzers would have umasked something that bad long ago. Uncle Pete woulda put some secondhand CWR out there long ago or dropped the track to Class 1 (10 MPH) if the conditions you described were out there on consecutive runs (no matter what local supervision said - Big Yellow is zero tolerance obsessive like that, and they have resource$ that CNW would never have had). The FRA guys woulda caught it too , independent of UP. (and you don't leave paint and other markings out there to make it easier for FRA to find unless you have addressed the situation)....
I beg to differ. As an engineer for CP I run over the UP Milwaukee Sub between Shermer and Bryn Mawr quite often. We all comment on how bad the track is through there and it's been that way since I started running over it in 2001. Bad spots stay bad for a very long time, often without a slow order giving pretty wild rides at times.
Terrible track compared to CP's.
xlspecial wrote: I beg to differ. As an engineer for CP I run over the UP Milwaukee Sub between Shermer and Bryn Mawr quite often. We all comment on how bad the track is through there and it's been that way since I started running over it in 2001. Bad spots stay bad for a very long time, often without a slow order giving pretty wild rides at times. Terrible track compared to CP's.
I would guess that you (CP) run more trains over that track than the UP does. And FWIW, the track north of Shermer is no better.
zardoz wrote: xlspecial wrote: I beg to differ. As an engineer for CP I run over the UP Milwaukee Sub between Shermer and Bryn Mawr quite often. We all comment on how bad the track is through there and it's been that way since I started running over it in 2001. Bad spots stay bad for a very long time, often without a slow order giving pretty wild rides at times. Terrible track compared to CP's. I would guess that you (CP) run more trains over that track than the UP does. And FWIW, the track north of Shermer is no better.
(better chance of a sharp worn flange picking a point or climbing on the the rail than what I'm hearing on track condition being a problem here...still not hearing about trains on the ground anyhow...)
Even bad track is a lot better than the general condition of track 100 years ago. In some of my research I came across an interview with a traveling salesman who worked the West out of Salt Lake. He made the claim that when the OSL's Butte Special left Idaho Falls bound for Butte, frequent passengers would start a pool as to which milepost they would derail at. Not if they would derail - but where.
dd
http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/PubAffairs/FRA_Natl_Rail_Saf_ActnPln_PrgrssRpt2005_2007.pdf
so i was watching a train go through the west end of eau claire today and noticed the line was jointed rail still. but i had also heard UP replaced that track with CWR. anyone know which parts of the adams sub have been replaced with CWR currently?
Your friendly neighborhood CNW fan.
There was a video here on the forum some time ago showing a stick of rail that was not fastened to the ties at all - it was held (more or less) in position by the joint bars and the adjoining rails. Each time a truck would pass over it, one end or the other would go several feet in the air. For the whole train.
Bad track? No problem.
I can identify with the harmonic thing - one of our trips is on less-than-optimum roadbed cleared for 15 mph. It's better to hold around 13 mph, however, as I've been told by a couple of engineers that at 15 the train does hit a harmonic and can really get to swaying.
Don't hold your breath on the welded rail up in Eau Claire. UP has replaced the jointed rail with CWR up until Adams, WI. As far as I know, the welded is probably in place to the Wisconsin River, as I saw the track equipment up there in August.
In the fall of 2006, they installed welded rail up to about Glen Oak, including the trackage through Clyman Jct. As you can see in this picture, http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=160986&nseq=9, the welded rail is fresh, and the ballast hasn't even been shaped.
From about late September through mid-October 2007, they replaced the track from near Arkdale, to Glen Oak.
Keep in mind that it took 3 months to make about 35-40 miles of trackage. They do that once a year. Don't hold your breath on CWR up there soon.
BTW, the scrap pile for a good portion of the old jointed rail is in Grand Marsh, in case anyone's interiested.
How often does UP change out its CWR on the Nebraska mainline, particularly the line between North Platte and Gibbon.
ed
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