This is a bit premature, but when you know what is coming, it pays to get a handle on it before it gets here. On Wednesday 10:00PM, in the Minneapolis/St. Paul market, KSTP TV will run a piece called, Who's Been Keeping Track Of Railroad Bridge Safety?" The promo shows a lot of railroad bridges that seem to be in need of paint, said some were over 100 years old, warned that the federal government does not inspect them, and threw in the gratuitous mention of trains carrying dangerous cargo.
We are the unsafe bridge capital of the world right now. So, I don't think that this presentation will tell us that we needn't worry about railroad bridges because they are perfectly safe. It should be really interesting to see these geniuses at KSTP take on the railroad industry in terms of bridge engineering, only on the basis of bridge appearance.
Here is a link to the promo:
http://kstp.com/article/stories/S231303.shtml?cat=1&v=1
Well, like you said, just because railroad bridges are not painted and mostly left to rust these days, it certainly does not mean that they are unsafe. I believe the structures are inspected every few years by bridge engineers aren't they?
In any event, this kind of thing is typical of the media when they begin discussing the railroad industry, as they usually make themselves out to look quite ignorant and foolish.
I am curious, though. Does anyone know the typical lifespan of a railroad bridge? I believe most are built for use of at least 100 years, no?
Alco83 wrote: Well, like you said, just because railroad bridges are not painted and mostly left to rust these days, it certainly does not mean that they are unsafe. I believe the structures are inspected every few years by bridge engineers aren't they?In any event, this kind of thing is typical of the media when they begin discussing the railroad industry, as they usually make themselves out to look quite ignorant and foolish. I am curious, though. Does anyone know the typical lifespan of a railroad bridge? I believe most are built for use of at least 100 years, no?
Most railroads inspect all their bridges at least annually and after any event that indicates a need for additional inspections such as wild fire, flood, hurricane, earthquake, etc.
There are no FRA regulations governing bridges, other than the track across the bridges must be in safe condition for operations.
LC
Alco83 wrote:I am curious, though. Does anyone know the typical lifespan of a railroad bridge? I believe most are built for use of at least 100 years, no?
The swing bridge over the Fox in Oshkosh was built in 1899. In the mid 1990s the WC and the City of Oshkosh and WIDOT (IIRC) looked at replacing the bridge. They determined that the bridge was already massively 'overbuilt' and was stronger than it 'needed' to be. They decided to leave it stand. I've seen the bridge get inspected and worked on annually.
Dan
Considering the location of the station and the intended audience, my guess is that the report will be sensationalized out of all proportion.
Too bad the Stone Arch Bridge in Minneapolis no longer carries rail traffic. Bridges built in a similar style by the Romans are still standing in Europe, so I'm guessing this one will be around a while.
I won't say that railroad drainage structures (culverts and small trestles) never fail. They do. Rarely.
That said, however, when was the last time you heard about a major railroad bridge falling down? Uh...
And when was the last time you heard about a major highway bridge falling down?
End of story...
spokyone wrote:Well let's see now. The government inspects highway bridges. And how many inspected bridges fail? And how many rail bridges fail?
Yeah, leave it to TV news to think we are not safe unless the government is involved.
A news station in Atlanta ran a similar report last year, going overboard about the "extreme" dangers that rail traffic poses to unsuspecting pedestrians. I can't remember the station, but it wasn't a very good report.....
Back on the topic, I wouldn't worry about rail bridges failing, as RR's take good care of them.
jchnhtfd wrote: I won't say that railroad drainage structures (culverts and small trestles) never fail. They do. Rarely.That said, however, when was the last time you heard about a major railroad bridge falling down? Uh...And when was the last time you heard about a major highway bridge falling down?End of story...
Hate to break up the love fest, but...
Don't forget the little OOPS! on the MNBR in Alabama earlier this year when a bridge under repair collapsed under the weight of a NASA train hauling Space Shuttle Booster Rockets.
Railroad bridges are generally inspected and maintained, but they aren't perfect either. There is quite a push on in Congress for more regulation of railroad bridges. The Safety Bill that just passed the House requires FRA to promulgate railroad bridge regulations. FRA is against the regs, but as they put it...one more incident and it will be inevitable.
cacole wrote:Considering the location of the station and the intended audience, my guess is that the report will be sensationalized out of all proportion.
Unfortunately, I think that you're probably right, cacole....
Many RR bridges that are still in service were built when the avg wt/car was increasing at a pretty good clip. Since bridges were expected to be long-lived, they were built to carry anticipated loads some point in the somewhat distant future.
Even though extrapolating can be a dangerous game, it looks like they mostly guessed right as that strategy has played out well for RRs today. Many are still good to go at today's loadings.
For some, the RR strategy has been to single track what was built as double track and some were reinforced for higher loadings.
And, some have rusted away and collapsed - ala Kinzua!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd wrote: And, some have rusted away and collapsed - ala Kinzua!
Did deterioration contribute to the collapse of Kinzua?
.....If I had to make my choice, I'd pick any major RR bridge over any major Interstate highway bridge for trusting if it will stay there and do the job.....
By the way, on the Kinzua bridge and it's collapse....Didn't it have major help with a freak storm that most likely included a tornado and 100 mph winds blasting thru that valley......
Quentin
csx is working on the auglaize river bridge right now. how safe can a bridge be though if trucks keep hitting the viaducts here in town???
stay safe
joe
Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").
I am pretty far from an expert, but I can think of at least 15 RR bridge failures--most of which, while a train was traversing the bridge--in the last 30 years.
Gabe
Bucyrus wrote: oltmannd wrote: And, some have rusted away and collapsed - ala Kinzua!Did deterioration contribute to the collapse of Kinzua?
csx engineer
csxengineer98 wrote: Bucyrus wrote: oltmannd wrote: And, some have rusted away and collapsed - ala Kinzua!Did deterioration contribute to the collapse of Kinzua?yes..but being hit by a tornado did the death blow...csx engineer
...BUT, the cast iron & steel bridge at Kinzua was known to be deficient and the park service inspected it several times a year.....so I guess it was OK (as was the M&B timber bridge)......
never mind.
mudchicken wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: Bucyrus wrote: oltmannd wrote: And, some have rusted away and collapsed - ala Kinzua!Did deterioration contribute to the collapse of Kinzua?yes..but being hit by a tornado did the death blow...csx engineer ...BUT, the cast iron & steel bridge at Kinzua was known to be deficient and the park service inspected it several times a year.....so I guess it was OK (as was the M&B timber bridge)...... never mind.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Limitedclear wrote: There is quite a push on in Congress for more regulation of railroad bridges.
There is quite a push on in Congress for more regulation of railroad bridges.
The public sector always strives to enlarge itself by taking over activities of the private sector. It creates special interest advocacy groups who publish studies highlighting safety threats, and feed them to the news media. Without even realizing that they are being used like a tool, the news media broadcasts the safety threat to the public. The public is predictably alarmed, so they turn around and besiege their representatives to do something about the safety threat.
So even though most of us are skeptical of this issue because we understand railroad bridges and the reasonably reliable motives of the railroads to properly inspect them, 99% of the viewers will just lap this up. So the larger objective to put the government in charge of railroad bridge inspection by getting the public to demand it will have been furthered. Meanwhile KSTP news will merely believe they are enhancing their ratings by protecting us like children on an inside tip they got from a special interest (with no agenda) suggesting they look into railroad bridge safety.
Last spring I went to a public info meeting of the CA High Speed Rail Authority. After asking two of the civil engineers present some questions about the route alignment (which were answered to my satisfaction) I listened to a discussion of RR bridge safety in CA.
Most CA RR bridges were designed when steam engines pulled the trains. Those built since steam died have generally followed the same design principles. Steam engines put a greater load on the same length of track when compared to diesel/electric locomotives. They also imparted a large rocking moment and uneven driving impetus to the structure.
So, when CA inspected all bridges for seismic safety in the wake of the 1989 Loma Prieta quake, they found many highway bridges in need of a retrofit. That work is proceding with attention going to those bridges that need it most. The 1989 inspection found NO railroad bridges in need of seismic retrofitting. Some may since have been rebuilt for other reasons, but mere strength was not one of them.
Another point: the use of continuous welded rail adds another margin of safety. This rail kind of straps the bridge to the ground like a steel girdle and adds an additional margin of safety. Other parts of the country may have more trouble with corrosion, but, as far as I know, RRs don't use much salt to melt snow.
Jack
The failure of the M&B timber bridge approach, IMO, falls in a category all its own. An MOW crew had been working on the approach and was present when the mishap occured. I am sure the cause has now been determined but I can not find any info on it other than the original news report. Would appreciate any further info anyone might have on it. It is a "puzzlement" to me.
Northtowne
North Alabama
Hi im new here and from the uk, i subscribed to trains after losing interest in the railways in the UK. so im on a steep learning curve with US railways/sorry Railroads.
From what i gather your TV press is similar to the UK tabloid press (the newspapers) and they jump on the first band wagon that comes along. They uninformed and dont care, to boot. the best thing to do is egnore them and investigate the situation yourself.
Accidents happen they cant be helped, looking at your railroads and how quick they rectify promlems that appear i wouldnt worry.
look at the railways in the UK we bounce from one disater to another, but that goes for anything the country i live in does.
Trust in your railroads and there Civil Engineers and not what the press say.
Welcome to the Forum UK2007!
Lots of good info here and in the other forums on the site.
Talking about Bridge Safety, I thought the C&NW mainline next to the Kennedy Expy had a series of bridges thatill need to be replaced somday. Perhaps the salt flies from the expressway? THey may date from the 1920's or so when most lines in Chicago were elevated over the streets.
There may be other mainlines that will need to be rebuilt someday. With the news media, it appears they want the Govmt to do everything. Bend over & pay more taxes till it hurts.
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