Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Trimming is just what it sounds like...trimming up the yards bowl tracks, cutting out cars that were switched to the wrong track, pulling out bad orders, clearing out tracks when they fill up or dragging tracks down farther into the bowl to make more room in them, things like that.
Setting trains means doubling up and or setting over tracks to build up an outbound train.
Setting or setting out can also refer to spotting the newly made up train on an air spot, so the car department can work ground air (an independent compressed air source separate from locomotive supplied air) and pump up the train line, and do an initial terminal air test with out the need for the motive power to be attached to the train.
What the author was telling you was they were humping or switching cars faster than they could make room in the bowl for them.
23 17 46 11
Second question first, Murph--there are times when all the extra hump crews in the world won't push the cars over any faster. I'm sure we could come a lot closer to a "design speed" if we didn't have to make special arrangements to handle some of the cars we get in the shoves (shiftable loads, loaded autos or stack cars, hazmat), or if all of the cars rolled the way they should. We don't have the problem they had down south--we're usually humping as far as we can go, waiting for the pulldown end to make us more room.
Having said that, up here in Proviso, the trimming is done on our end of the hump--covers kicking cars that stop short, retrieving in-wrongs, or shoving tracks "into the corner" to give ourselves more humping room. What passes for trimming in most other yards is done by the "pulldown" crews. Just a difference in terminology.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
edblysard wrote: Setting or setting out can also refer to spotting the newly made up train on an air spot, so the car department can work ground air (an independent compressed air source separate from locomotive supplied air) and pump up the train line, and do an initial terminal air test with out the need for the motive power to be attached to the train.
That's the idea. The car knockers perform their inspection with ground air. Then a crew comes along with the power:
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Murphy Siding wrote: How long are we talking about, from the time the locomotives couple up with the train, until it's ready to go? How does that compare with starting from scratch?
From the time the locomotive couples to the train if its just one track maybe 2-3 minutes to get air up to within 15psi of regulating valve setting, making sure the ETD shows a rise on the rear end and continuity, a lot of engineers will also do a set and release to make sure ETD pressure drops 5 psi and recovers 5 psi, covering for a possible situation of an overcharge in the brake pipe. Overacharge in the brake pipe usually occurs in cold weather where yard air can get the train line to a much higher PSI than the locomotives can.
If the cars are not pretested, even a small train of 50 cars can take 1-2 hours to do class one air test. The yard air allows the carman to do a class one air test.
Can someone describe what happens air-wise when you set out bad orders on a train that is ready to leave town fully loaded. How is the air affected and how long does it take to build it back up? Is it "saved" in the preceeding cars so they only have to redo the ones behind the cut?
Mook
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Short answer to the last question: yes.
The other question will have to be answered by someone who remembers how much time per car it takes to pump up the air from an emergency application (which is the same as dumping the air when the cut's made).
longer answer...
I beleive there are valves (sometimes called "stopcocks") at each end of the car, which can be used to shut off the air. (That's why you don't need a caboose on one end and an engine on the other to pump air...)
To change from "Yard Air" to "Motor Air" you would shut off the valve, swap hoses, and turn the valve back on. I dont believe you would be able to change the glad-hand safely with the air still on...even if you could force the hands back together, you would cause an emergency set of the train brakes, and have to pump it all back up again...
So, to set a car out, you just isolate the car with both valves, and the valves on the cars ahead/behind it, spot it where you need it, bleed the air, set the hand brake, then when your train is back together, reconnect the train line and open both valves that were closed to isolate the car...
I would imagine a safety conscious engineer would also do a short brake test, to check the air pressure on the EOT device, as described above, before attempting to decend any decent grade. Might even be mandatory after splitting a train like that....
JSGreen wrote: longer answer...I beleive there are valves (sometimes called "stopcocks") at each end of the car, which can be used to shut off the air. (That's why you don't need a caboose on one end and an engine on the other to pump air...)To change from "Yard Air" to "Motor Air" you would shut off the valve, swap hoses, and turn the valve back on. I dont believe you would be able to change the glad-hand safely with the air still on...even if you could force the hands back together, you would cause an emergency set of the train brakes, and have to pump it all back up again...So, to set a car out, you just isolate the car with both valves, and the valves on the cars ahead/behind it, spot it where you need it, bleed the air, set the hand brake, then when your train is back together, reconnect the train line and open both valves that were closed to isolate the car...I would imagine a safety conscious engineer would also do a short brake test, to check the air pressure on the EOT device, as described above, before attempting to decend any decent grade. Might even be mandatory after splitting a train like that....
Please pardon me while I....
CShaveRR wrote: JSGreen wrote: longer answer...I beleive there are valves (sometimes called "stopcocks") at each end of the car, which can be used to shut off the air. (That's why you don't need a caboose on one end and an engine on the other to pump air...)To change from "Yard Air" to "Motor Air" you would shut off the valve, swap hoses, and turn the valve back on. I dont believe you would be able to change the glad-hand safely with the air still on...even if you could force the hands back together, you would cause an emergency set of the train brakes, and have to pump it all back up again...So, to set a car out, you just isolate the car with both valves, and the valves on the cars ahead/behind it, spot it where you need it, bleed the air, set the hand brake, then when your train is back together, reconnect the train line and open both valves that were closed to isolate the car...I would imagine a safety conscious engineer would also do a short brake test, to check the air pressure on the EOT device, as described above, before attempting to decend any decent grade. Might even be mandatory after splitting a train like that....Please pardon me while I....
If there is something incorrect in my post, it would be more informative (both to me and to other forum members) if you would advise me which part is correct and which is incorrect.
Any time the brake pipe has been changed by adding cars, setting out cars or changing engines etc, an application and release test is required. It must be determined that the brakes on the rear car set up and release. This can be visually or by seeing at least a 5 psi drop and rise on the EOT. If car(s) being added aren't already air tested, the A & R can be the same one done for the air test on the cars, it doesn't have to be separate.
You also don't want to close the angle **** on cars left standing, thus "bottling" the air. You either let them go into emergency or during cold weather follow an approved method to bleed down the brake pipe to a level that won't cause the control valves to go to emergency before cutting away.
Yesterday I brought a train out of a yard where there is no yard air plant. They have to use engines to do the test. We arrived at the train just as the car men where finishing the brake test and dropping the blue flags. We didn't have any bad orders to set out. All we had to do is release hand brakes and go.
If we did, the conductor would have gone back to the portion of the train to be left, after releasing hand brakes on the head end. He would then put on a sufficient number of hand brakes to hold the portion left behind. Then he would have me release the air brakes to see if it holds. If it does, I would make a 20 psi brake pipe reduction and then he would close the angle **** on the end of the car to be setout, where the cut is to be made. (This is assuming that the problem requiring the setout isn't with the brakes not releasing on that car.) We then would cut away letting the rear portion go into emergency and set the car over to wherever the yardmaster would specify. If the car was going to be left alone, the hand brake applied and tested. We would cut away from it and go back to our train. Once recoupled before departing, an application and release test would be done. Of course the hand brakes would also be released before departing.
Jeff
jeffhergert wrote: We then would cut away letting the rear portion go into emergency and set the car over to wherever the yardmaster would specify. If the car was going to be left alone, the hand brake applied and tested. We would cut away from it and go back to our train. Once recoupled before departing, an application and release test would be done. Of course the hand brakes would also be released before departing. Jeff
We then would cut away letting the rear portion go into emergency and set the car over to wherever the yardmaster would specify. If the car was going to be left alone, the hand brake applied and tested. We would cut away from it and go back to our train. Once recoupled before departing, an application and release test would be done. Of course the hand brakes would also be released before departing.
So it would appear that the time between the rear of the train going into emergency and reapplying air after the car is set out is short enough to not have to recharge the reseviours totally....and thus not take near as much time as starting from scratch...which of course simplifies the operation a bit...
On average, how long will the brakes hold once a cut has gone into emergency? A matter of a few hours or as long as a day?
jeffhergert wrote: Yesterday I brought a train out of a yard where there is no yard air plant. They have to use engines to do the test. We arrived at the train just as the car men where finishing the brake test and dropping the blue flags. We didn't have any bad orders to set out. All we had to do is release hand brakes and go.
I've seen cars set out for a few days or a week with most of the air brakes still holding. They must hold for 3 minutes minimum for the air test. After that, it just depends on the condition of the car's brake equipment. They just don't want someone to depend on the air brakes only holding a car or cut of cars. In some cases doing that resulted in big headlines in the news.
Mookie wrote: jeffhergert wrote: Yesterday I brought a train out of a yard where there is no yard air plant. They have to use engines to do the test. We arrived at the train just as the car men where finishing the brake test and dropping the blue flags. We didn't have any bad orders to set out. All we had to do is release hand brakes and go. Jeff or anyone - I know each car has its own hand brake. So can you collectively release all of them from the cab? Is this done by releasing the train brake? I am going to assume that if you apply the brakes by hand on any car, you need to release them by hand, also. Mook
No, each hand brake on the cars and engines need to be released by hand. You are correct that each individual hand brake is applied and released by hand.
It seems somewhere I read someone working on a power assisted hand brake using I think air tapped from the train line. This was quite a while back and either didn't work out or the extra effort to equip and maintain wasn't worth the cost to do so.
Okay--I've been out to Rochelle for recuperation, so I can tackle this the way it should have been done (short answers were due as much to lack of time as anything else).
JSGreen wrote: longer answer...I beleive there are valves (sometimes called "stopcocks") at each end of the car, which can be used to shut off the air. (That's why you don't need a caboose on one end and an engine on the other to pump air...)
Anglecock, as Jeff states. A caboose had no air-pumping capabilities, so I'm still confused here.
To change from "Yard Air" to "Motor Air" you would shut off the valve, swap hoses, and turn the valve back on. I dont believe you would be able to change the glad-hand safely with the air still on...even if you could force the hands back together, you would cause an emergency set of the train brakes, and have to pump it all back up again...So, to set a car out, you just isolate the car with both valves, and the valves on the cars ahead/behind it, spot it where you need it, bleed the air, set the hand brake, then when your train is back together, reconnect the train line and open both valves that were closed to isolate the car...
Wrong on so many counts. Bottling the air is a rule violation. You'd close the anglecock on the rear end of the car you were setting out, make that separation (applying the required number of handbrakes to the standing cut to keep it from rolling), move the bad order to wherever you were spotting it, close the anglecock on the rear of the car ahead of it, and cut away. The brake on that car would go into emergency, making it a lot easier to crank up the handbrake. If it were found at this point that the brake would not hold the car, you'd have to chock the wheels or leave another car with a good hand brake to hold it. When you tied back onto your own train, you make the joint, make the hoses, and open the one anglecock. Release the hand brakes, perform an apply-and-release, and you're ready.
How about it, Jeff? Have we missed anything? The apply-and-release test would be required any time the train was separated. As I've stated before, in my own job, air is The Enemy. But I'm still required to take the tests, and I passed one last month.
CShaveRR wrote: ........As I've stated before, in my own job, air is The Enemy. But I'm still required to take the tests, and I passed one last month.
........As I've stated before, in my own job, air is The Enemy. But I'm still required to take the tests, and I passed one last month.
Murphy,
Remember, the air brake system is a dual system, the absence of air from one side sets the brakes, and as long as both sides have equal pressure, the brakes are off....bleeding the air doesn't remove all the air from the system, it just bleeds down the one side to equal what pressure is left in the cars reservoir so the brakes release.
Sometimes, as Carl pointed out, it doesn't quite work out that way.
I flat switch, and like Carl, air is my enemy...that and slight hand brakes that don't squeal...you only find it after the fact.
Nothing is more aggravating that having to stop your work, and go kick a car a second time...
In Carl's yard, the cars all come off the hump at pretty much the same rate and speed; his job is to make sure they are slowed down precisely, depending on their weight, type of car or contents, and how far they have to travel to make the couple.
Where as in my job, I can kick ‘em hard, or float one where I need...and having a car stop on the lead just makes for extra work.
By the way, you don't want to completely deplete the air from the entire brake system....that just adds time to the air test as the compressor, be it ground air or a locomotives compressor has to replace the entire content on both sides of the system, instead of just re-filling the equalizing reservoir and charging the train line.
CShaveRR wrote: Okay--I've been out to Rochelle for recuperation, so I can tackle this the way it should have been done (short answers were due as much to lack of time as anything else). JSGreen wrote: longer answer...I beleive there are valves (sometimes called "stopcocks") at each end of the car, which can be used to shut off the air. (That's why you don't need a caboose on one end and an engine on the other to pump air...)Anglecock, as Jeff states. A caboose had no air-pumping capabilities, so I'm still confused here.To change from "Yard Air" to "Motor Air" you would shut off the valve, swap hoses, and turn the valve back on. I dont believe you would be able to change the glad-hand safely with the air still on...even if you could force the hands back together, you would cause an emergency set of the train brakes, and have to pump it all back up again...So, to set a car out, you just isolate the car with both valves, and the valves on the cars ahead/behind it, spot it where you need it, bleed the air, set the hand brake, then when your train is back together, reconnect the train line and open both valves that were closed to isolate the car...Wrong on so many counts. Bottling the air is a rule violation. You'd close the anglecock on the rear end of the car you were setting out, make that separation (applying the required number of handbrakes to the standing cut to keep it from rolling), move the bad order to wherever you were spotting it, close the anglecock on the rear of the car ahead of it, and cut away. The brake on that car would go into emergency, making it a lot easier to crank up the handbrake. If it were found at this point that the brake would not hold the car, you'd have to chock the wheels or leave another car with a good hand brake to hold it. When you tied back onto your own train, you make the joint, make the hoses, and open the one anglecock. Release the hand brakes, perform an apply-and-release, and you're ready.I would imagine a safety conscious engineer would also do a short brake test, to check the air pressure on the EOT device, as described above, before attempting to decend any decent grade. Might even be mandatory after splitting a train like that....How about it, Jeff? Have we missed anything? The apply-and-release test would be required any time the train was separated. As I've stated before, in my own job, air is The Enemy. But I'm still required to take the tests, and I passed one last month.
Looks pretty good. Truthfully, that's the way I would do it. We probably should apply the hand brake first and make sure it's holding before cutting away and letting it dynamite. Especially if the track is on a grade. Otherwise, it might be the air brake alone doing the work.
(Carl, did you happen to see a recent safety alert about an engine that took a little trip by itself from Omaha to Council Bluffs? That's a good example about thinking the hand brake was applied and working when it wasn't. Couple of other alleged boo boos possibly helped, but scratch one caboose, er shoving platform.)
An application and Release test would not be required if all you did was to cut the train (like for a crossing) and didn't change the brake pipe in any other way. When you recouple all you have to know is that air pressure is being restored on the rear end. This can be done by either having the EOT show a rise in pressure or having someone with a gauge showing the rise. If there is no working gauge or EOT on the back end, than the brake pipe must be charged and the brakes must be seen to setup and release on the rear car by making a 20lb application and release. (If the rear portion has been off air for longer than 4 hours, that portion needs a complete Initial terminal test.)
jeffhergert wrote:(Carl, did you happen to see a recent safety alert about an engine that took a little trip by itself from Omaha to Council Bluffs? That's a good example about thinking the hand brake was applied and working when it wasn't. Couple of other alleged boo boos possibly helped, but scratch one caboose, er shoving platform.) An application and Release test would not be required if all you did was to cut the train (like for a crossing) and didn't change the brake pipe in any other way. When you recouple all you have to know is that air pressure is being restored on the rear end. This can be done by either having the EOT show a rise in pressure or having someone with a gauge showing the rise. If there is no working gauge or EOT on the back end, than the brake pipe must be charged and the brakes must be seen to setup and release on the rear car by making a 20lb application and release. (If the rear portion has been off air for longer than 4 hours, that portion needs a complete Initial terminal test.)Jeff
Well, you can see how little stuck with me after the test!
No, we hadn't gotten this alert, but it may have been given on one of my days off. I've seen engines roll unattended from one of our yards to another, though.
Lots of things have contributed to a decreased hump count. When I hired out, Proviso was expected to do over 1000 cars per shift. We now do about the same as West Colton--2000 to 2400 on a good day. In that time, our bowl has decreased in size (we gave up three of our longest tracks, or well over 100 cars of bowl capacity), cars have gotten bigger, blocks that used to be pushed over the hump now are routed away from the yard, switching moves take longer (no getting on and off moving equipment any more), and we have more rules for the properhandling of hazardous materials and loaded auto racks, which used to go over the hill like anything else. I think that fewer manifest trains are run out of the yard these days, too--which means that cars often stay in the bowl longer, and that can't help.
As usual, really informative thread, not only about airbrakes and application but also yard operations.
This has probably been discussed previously, if so I apoligize, but the yard operations is a fascinating matter for me.
Let just say hypothetically, that UP runs a daily train frm Proviso to Council Bluffs. Lets say that train has a scheduled departure time of hmmm lets say 6pm. Lets also say that UP has fine tuned its operations to know that generally speaking there will not be enough cars/tonnage/revenue to run a solid CB train, so they schedule other "blocks" to be dropped, perhaps Clinton, Cedar Rapids, and Boone.
So, will each of these "blocks" or destinations have it's own yard bowl track? So that as you are breaking inbound trains you are sending those three destinations to it's own track? Or do you combine a couple of blocks then re-hump in order to refine the blocking? Sort of hard for me to put into writing, but having worked in the LTL trucking industry years ago, we had to build and break trailers and the freight would be staged on the dock and then loaded. Around 1am there was a whole lot of freight on those docks!
How do you guys handle this?
ed
Funny you should use that example, Ed--we've probably mentioned this particular manifest (MPRCB) more than any other, because as of now, it gets the two remaining CNW Dash 9s and the UP's CNW Heritage unit for power every four days. This train runs seven days a week (departure scheduled for 10:30 a.m.; it often leaves earlier). When it leaves here, it always contains three blocks: Marshalltown (Iowa), Council Bluffs North Yard, and Council Bluffs proper. These CB blocks handle traffic for places on the "old" UP anywhere east of North Platte.
Each of those three blocks has its own track in our classification yard. The CBLF cars are on one of our longer tracks; the CBNY and MRTN cars each on one of the shorter tracks. The train is pulled out of the bowl before we get to work at 0630. I'm sure that both the CBLF and CBNY blocks usually overflow their track, requiring additional tracks to be pulled and doubled up.
The train will run regardless of length; I don't think I've ever seen an instance where there weren't cars in all three blocks. Jeff might be able to tell you better what the train does on his end of the line, but I'm pretty sure that the consist doesn't change anywhere east of Marshalltown.
On the days when the special consist isn't used, this train usually rates three SD40-2s, most of which will be of CNW origin (due to the requirement for an ATC-equipped lead unit).
My first post about getting a train out of the yard, was MCBPR. Usually called out of Council Bluffs around 10AM give or take a couple of hours.
In Iowa currently, MPRCB usually only works Marshalltown. When it arrives at Boone, normally 11PM to 3AM it is yarded and called out around 10AM. It doesn't pick up or set out there. When there is fertilizer for Logan, Iowa, MPRCB will set that out since there is no assigne local freight working west of Dunlap. At the CB, it will set out in the North yard, the ex-CNW yard. Then proceed down the 12th Street line to the original UP South yard. There are a few variations possible on the last part. There are a few different areas in the South yard complex where you could end up, depending on yard conditions.
The MCBPR leaves the South yard, usually up the 12th Street line and departs CB. Used to pick up at the ex-CNW (North) yard. Haven't done that for quite a while. Doing that ties up a main track while air testing the pick up. It, and MPRCB also, can pick up any repaired bad orders that were set out west of West Denision. The day I had it we showed picking up a couple of cars at Arion, but were told to high ball the pick up. It is called thru Boone, main line crew change. Normally it will only work Marshalltown. If the Des Moines - Proviso manifest that usually picks up at Beverly is too big, MCBPR will sometimes pick up at Beverly.
In addition to the exCNWs, CNW heritage, and SD40-2s it will also get the exCNW standard cab GEs in the 9000 series. They aren't bad to run, but boy are their cab doors small.
Carl/Jeff:Thanks, great answers.
Jeff, you mentioned that MPRCB gets to Boone and then is yarded and then leaves several hours later. What is the purpose of the yarding? Is it further classifying the cars? In other words does Proviso simply make the three blocks and then Boone refines the blocks so the local yard can deliver the train's cars in sequence?
Hope that makes sense.
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