Erie Lackawanna wrote: Chico - I'm not sure where you saw in one word of the quote you took (either zugmann, Poppa Zit or me) even a hint of a suggestion that we believed that Ted's idea would sell or that he could copyright it. Please try not to attack others making it sound as if they said things that they never did.I worked in television for more than 20 years. Networks buy ideas all the time. (They're not going to buy a railfanning one, you're right, but that doesn't change the fact that they most certainly do by ideas.) If the networks like your idea they will hook you up with their own studio and showrunners that they trust. This is how it works. You need to have a track record of some kind, but that can be stageplays, books, or other non television mediums.I do agree with you 100% that no one will buy an amorphous railfanning show. I also don't believe anyone would by a pure railfanning show from Jerry Bruckheimer either. The quote you took was about how shows get funded, not an endorsement of Ted's dream.
Chico - I'm not sure where you saw in one word of the quote you took (either zugmann, Poppa Zit or me) even a hint of a suggestion that we believed that Ted's idea would sell or that he could copyright it. Please try not to attack others making it sound as if they said things that they never did.
I worked in television for more than 20 years. Networks buy ideas all the time. (They're not going to buy a railfanning one, you're right, but that doesn't change the fact that they most certainly do by ideas.) If the networks like your idea they will hook you up with their own studio and showrunners that they trust. This is how it works. You need to have a track record of some kind, but that can be stageplays, books, or other non television mediums.
I do agree with you 100% that no one will buy an amorphous railfanning show. I also don't believe anyone would by a pure railfanning show from Jerry Bruckheimer either. The quote you took was about how shows get funded, not an endorsement of Ted's dream.
erie i have trouble typing these days and you responded before I finshed editing my original post. Do not accuse me of attacking anyone because I did not as you did to me. i never adressd comments made by any of those people and you can't show us where I did.I wasn't refuting anyone in the posts above.You should read for meaning be=fore you start pointing fingers at people and I don't like your jumping all over me.I was speaking only to Ted and tryimng to explain the reality of where he is now (pre-pre-pre-conceptual stage} and where he needs to go. When I said networks don't buy ideas i meant unknown people can't just call up a networks and get an apopointment based on "I have an idea for a railfan show." Because they don't like their time wasted.yes I know they buy ideas once in a very blue moon but you need to be established, like haveing written a book or a play or as I said a script.We're not talking about those types of people, we're talking about Ted here. They don't hire untrained inexperiencedamateurs.You echo my points now that I finished. But this is what always happens here when someone asks others to tell the truth or for constructive criticism.Those who are only trying to be honest get flamed for attacking people either by the person who asked or by someone else. since you brought it up to bolster your points, what are your TV credentials?
Chico
Steam Is King wrote: Erie Lackawanna wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: zugmann wrote: I hate to burst anyone's bubble... but I just don't think there is enough interest and demand to warrant any train shows. Your only hope is a broader show that occasionally covers train topics (like on Discovery and History). A railroad life show? It will never happen. Railroads won't let the public be exposed to the working conditions that we (the movers of dangerous commodities) have to live.Being of the pragmatic bent, and having been involved in similar projects, I'm still waiting for someone to explain where the funding will come from.Well - it depends. If you sell something to a cable network first, they will fund most of it, or all of it (in which case they take ownership). If you're doing something for PBS they will allow you to use their prestige to try and get a corporate sponsor to fund it.The problem with a project like this is it isn't viable if you're trying to appeal to railfans. Too small an audience.First, networks don't buyideas.The concept of a railfan/train show is far too vague for Ted or anyone else to claim a copyright violation should a netwrok somedayoriginate such a show. Next, TV networks have numerous profesional production houses alreasdy associated with them that they contract such programs with. Bill Kurtis is one such producer. So the chances of a cable network paying Ted for his vague concept and hiring him (a totally inexperienced entity) and fronting him money for production is a pipe dream. Not a chance.Chico
Erie Lackawanna wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: zugmann wrote: I hate to burst anyone's bubble... but I just don't think there is enough interest and demand to warrant any train shows. Your only hope is a broader show that occasionally covers train topics (like on Discovery and History). A railroad life show? It will never happen. Railroads won't let the public be exposed to the working conditions that we (the movers of dangerous commodities) have to live.Being of the pragmatic bent, and having been involved in similar projects, I'm still waiting for someone to explain where the funding will come from.Well - it depends. If you sell something to a cable network first, they will fund most of it, or all of it (in which case they take ownership). If you're doing something for PBS they will allow you to use their prestige to try and get a corporate sponsor to fund it.The problem with a project like this is it isn't viable if you're trying to appeal to railfans. Too small an audience.
Poppa_Zit wrote: zugmann wrote: I hate to burst anyone's bubble... but I just don't think there is enough interest and demand to warrant any train shows. Your only hope is a broader show that occasionally covers train topics (like on Discovery and History). A railroad life show? It will never happen. Railroads won't let the public be exposed to the working conditions that we (the movers of dangerous commodities) have to live.Being of the pragmatic bent, and having been involved in similar projects, I'm still waiting for someone to explain where the funding will come from.
zugmann wrote: I hate to burst anyone's bubble... but I just don't think there is enough interest and demand to warrant any train shows. Your only hope is a broader show that occasionally covers train topics (like on Discovery and History). A railroad life show? It will never happen. Railroads won't let the public be exposed to the working conditions that we (the movers of dangerous commodities) have to live.
I hate to burst anyone's bubble... but I just don't think there is enough interest and demand to warrant any train shows. Your only hope is a broader show that occasionally covers train topics (like on Discovery and History).
A railroad life show? It will never happen. Railroads won't let the public be exposed to the working conditions that we (the movers of dangerous commodities) have to live.
Being of the pragmatic bent, and having been involved in similar projects, I'm still waiting for someone to explain where the funding will come from.
Well - it depends. If you sell something to a cable network first, they will fund most of it, or all of it (in which case they take ownership). If you're doing something for PBS they will allow you to use their prestige to try and get a corporate sponsor to fund it.
The problem with a project like this is it isn't viable if you're trying to appeal to railfans. Too small an audience.
First, networks don't buyideas.The concept of a railfan/train show is far too vague for Ted or anyone else to claim a copyright violation should a netwrok somedayoriginate such a show. Next, TV networks have numerous profesional production houses alreasdy associated with them that they contract such programs with. Bill Kurtis is one such producer. So the chances of a cable network paying Ted for his vague concept and hiring him (a totally inexperienced entity) and fronting him money for production is a pipe dream. Not a chance.
I worked in television for more than 20 years. Networks buy ideas all the time. (They're not going to buy a railfanning one, you're right, but that doesn't change the fact that they most certainly do buy ideas.) If the networks like your idea they will hook you up with their own studio and showrunners that they trust. This is how it works. You need to have a track record of some kind, but that can be stageplays, books, or other non television mediums.
Erie Lackawanna wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: zugmann wrote: I hate to burst anyone's bubble... but I just don't think there is enough interest and demand to warrant any train shows. Your only hope is a broader show that occasionally covers train topics (like on Discovery and History). A railroad life show? It will never happen. Railroads won't let the public be exposed to the working conditions that we (the movers of dangerous commodities) have to live.Being of the pragmatic bent, and having been involved in similar projects, I'm still waiting for someone to explain where the funding will come from.Well - it depends. If you sell something to a cable network first, they will fund most of it, or all of it (in which case they take ownership). If you're doing something for PBS they will allow you to use their prestige to try and get a corporate sponsor to fund it.
First, networks don't buyideas. The concept of a railfan/train show is far too vague for Ted or anyone else to claim a copyright violation should a netwrok somedayoriginate such a show. Next, TV networks don't sit on huge piles of exrta cash waiting for someone to come in with such a vague concept. If you can get an interview in the first place(good luck), You need to presnt a working business plan, a number of scripts with storyboards, production costs, porduction schedlues, a working budget, shooting locatiuons, in this case signed ac=greements with any railroads that own shooting locations that are off-limits to the public, liability releases, etc;all netwroks have numerous profesional production houses alreasdy associated with them that they contract such programs with. Bill Kurtis is one such producer. So the chances of a cable network paying Ted for his vague concept and hiring him (a totally inexperienced entity) and fronting him money for production is a pipe dream. Not a chance. i don;t mean to be a Gloomy Gus but you asked.
Anyone ever heard of the show " Tracks Ahead ". The host is or was Spencer Christian I think. Was or still is on Milwaukee PBS station. It covered railroads and the model railroad world too. Not sure if they will have any new shows on next year or not.
Poppa_Zit wrote: zugmann wrote: I hate to burst anyone's bubble... but I just don't think there is enough interest and demand to warrant any train shows. Your only hope is a broader show that occasionally covers train topics (like on Discovery and History). A railroad life show? It will never happen. Railroads won't let the public be exposed to the working conditions that we (the movers of dangerous commodities) have to live.I agree, zugmann.Bright ideas cost nothing, nor does generating enthusiam for such a project. Being of the pragmatic bent, and having been involved in similar projects, I'm still waiting for someone to explain where the funding will come from.Finding a place to air it will be the next problem to solve after gaining the necessary funding. But first the funding issue must be solved.
I agree, zugmann.
Bright ideas cost nothing, nor does generating enthusiam for such a project. Being of the pragmatic bent, and having been involved in similar projects, I'm still waiting for someone to explain where the funding will come from.
Finding a place to air it will be the next problem to solve after gaining the necessary funding. But first the funding issue must be solved.
zugmann wrote:I don't think having an hour long show showing a crew sleeping at a stop signal is quite on par with "Deadliest Catch"...
I'm guessing you skipped over the "extremely tough conditions" part of my post.
It would have to be something like Machu Pico or the Trans Siberean Express (but neither of those would work because the crews don't speak English). I'm not saying such an operation exists, I'm just saying that if you don't find a DEADLIEST CATCH type angle, there's simply no chance.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Truth is, that's there are only two ways to do it and sell it.
The first is something that follows the lives of a certain group of rails who operate in extremely tough conditions... much like ICE TRUCKERS and MOST DANGEROUS CATCH. If you could find a railroad willing to go along with such a show and the conditions on its line were extreme, you might have a shot with one of the cable outlets (most likely DISCOVERY).
The only other possibility I see is a travel show, along the lines of the PBS series from ten years ago, about great train rides. That show was very nicely shot, but it made the mistake of not having a host. Travel shows are best with a guide, as opposed to an omniscient voice.
A clip show as some have described would only appeal to railfans and wouldn't have any market.
Has anybody seen Rail-Videos.net? There are a lot of good videos on there. What they could do is the head people of the website could look through the most popular videos, and select a few for a TV show. They could contact the videographers, and pay them for use of the video, and the videographer could send a high-quality version of their video to the head of the website. Since the video was first on the website, you already know where it was taken, what time of day, etc. Then the Rail-Videos.net people could assemble a TV show with nothing but trains - no narration, just the sounds of the trains and captions.
Television programs w/a total rr format have already been done in the past. Back in the 90's, both PBS and THC both did series stretched out over several wks. I believe PBS dealt w/modeling while THC did profiles on psgr trains, steam engines, rr police, Wabash and I can't recall the other subjects covered. Also from time to time, someone from Amtrk will take live calls on CSPAN Washington Journal aired early in the morning. When Gunn was head of Amtk, he would be on the program about every two months. Also i forgot about the highly rated documentary PBS did back around 1985 called Love Those Trains. It has long been released on video but every few yrs is still repeated on PBS. I remember watching it on KPTS in Wichita about 6-7 yrs ago. In doing historical research, I discovered that in the 1940's, KFBI radio (now KFDI) in Wichita,KS had a brief noontime 'Santa Fe Salute'. The studios sit next to the SF trks north of town. There was a psgr train that would pass by during that time day, a microphone would be stuck out the window, train goes by ,blasts its horn that is heard over the air. Don;t know how long this went on but my 89 yr old Grandma still remembers listening to it.
eolafan wrote: Try referencing this link and you may get information or ideas from this cable television show which I used to watch and enjoyed quite a bit. http://www.trainweb.org/tracksideonline/Stations.html
Try referencing this link and you may get information or ideas from this cable television show which I used to watch and enjoyed quite a bit.
http://www.trainweb.org/tracksideonline/Stations.html
Fixed Link
RFD-TV has in the past run a program featuring various videos of Railroad topics, I think they were commercially available; One particular I recall was done on the Chinese Rail across the Himalayas and into Tibet--
Ithe problem with their broadcast strategy seemed to be just to plug this program into a vacant time slot. It ran on Saturday's for a while at 9AM and then disappeared to reappear very late at night. It was almost impossible to track when and where it would be shown.
The History Channel ran the TRAINS Unlimited videos in a regular time slot which was enjoyable, but when the series was runii it too disappeared--BUMMER
Not to say you couldn't produce a decent show, but which channel would air such a show? Who would pay for it? Who would sponsor it?
TV isn't about art. It's about money and attracting sponsors and keeping those sponsors by delivering a large enough audience week after week. Plus, you may have to pay a network a fee to air your show, as they only buy shows that can make them money. Every year, people pitch networks with thousands of show ideas, and hundreds of pilots. Wanting to do a TV show or feature film is right up on the list with dreamers people who want to be singing stars, movie stars, highly-paid models, etc.
Remember all of us here are close to railfanning. But railfans represent a very, very small minority of potential TV viewers. The general public could not care less about railfanning, and TV networks look for mass-appeal shows. You might get some time here and there on public access channels, but in most towns the shows aren't listed in TV guides and no one sees the shows unless they're surfing channels and hit it accidently.
PS -- ditto the above posts (Charles and Al) and let me add "don't hire Spencer Christian as the host" because he's plastic, vanilla and boring.
Semper Vaporo wrote: OK, I'll bite.--Steam Locomotives.NO host!NO Narration.NO Music (especially plinkyplanky Geeetars or banjos) and NO singing.NO "dubbed sound"! If the video had no sound, don't add any.Just REAL Trains, with Real Sound. Steam Locomotives.Freight Trains, Passenger Trains.Main line, Switch Yard work, Roundhouse work, Backshop work.Big Steam Locomotives, Bigger Steam Locomotives.Pacing shots. Line side shots. Views from the side. Views from above. Views from below.Steam Locomotives.When the train passes the camera location, the camera should pan aimed at the valve gear of the engine (NOT THE BLANK SIDE OF THE TENDER!)NO shots without the Locomotive in view. NO long, interminable, views down the line with no train in sight. (If ya cain't see a locomotive, leave the film on the cutting room floor.)Did I mention BIG STEAM Locomotives? Lots of them!--I might even get cable if THAT show as on!(Well, you asked!)
OK, I'll bite.
--
Steam Locomotives.
NO host!
NO Narration.
NO Music (especially plinkyplanky Geeetars or banjos) and NO singing.
NO "dubbed sound"! If the video had no sound, don't add any.
Just REAL Trains, with Real Sound.
Freight Trains, Passenger Trains.
Main line, Switch Yard work, Roundhouse work, Backshop work.
Big Steam Locomotives, Bigger Steam Locomotives.
Pacing shots. Line side shots. Views from the side. Views from above. Views from below.
When the train passes the camera location, the camera should pan aimed at the valve gear of the engine (NOT THE BLANK SIDE OF THE TENDER!)
NO shots without the Locomotive in view. NO long, interminable, views down the line with no train in sight. (If ya cain't see a locomotive, leave the film on the cutting room floor.)
Did I mention BIG STEAM Locomotives? Lots of them!
I might even get cable if THAT show as on!
(Well, you asked!)
Very Well Said, Agree Completely
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Ted Marshall wrote: Hey gang, it seems that my videos were a hit with many of you; I'm flattered. I'm interested in knowing what you think would make a great tv show if one were to be made on railfanning? Host, history, statistics, musical score, etc. what should be included and what should be left out. Kind of like Fishing with Bill Dance only railfanning with Ted or something like that.I encourage even the harshest critics to sound in as I welcome all points of view.This should be a really good thread.
Hey gang, it seems that my videos were a hit with many of you; I'm flattered.
I'm interested in knowing what you think would make a great tv show if one were to be made on railfanning? Host, history, statistics, musical score, etc. what should be included and what should be left out. Kind of like Fishing with Bill Dance only railfanning with Ted or something like that.
I encourage even the harshest critics to sound in as I welcome all points of view.
This should be a really good thread.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keeping production costs down is key, especially early in the run of the show. I would think that something like a more-serious version of "America's Funniest Videos," would work--let people be their own director, videographer and scenarist. Solicit video clips from anyone whose work fits a category that fits any of the subjects on this whole TRAINS site. Ideally a small panel (not fewer than three nor more than seven) of experts, both of railroading in general and television or cable-television in particular-would choose what they consider to be the very best, and there might have to be some balancing of the panel so that no one orientation predominates. Passenger nostalgia, steam action, toys ancient and modern, modern RR ops, intermodal, transit topics, passeger topics, fallen flags, restoration and RR economics all should have their due IMHO. (My preference is also to see material about HST in other countries--but not exclusively.) Not all specialties are guaranteed representation in every show, or in a fixed number; best to keep the quality of the clips paramount and hope you'll receive a wide variety of them for consideration.
I would keep the format rather free-form in the beginning but some rules should exist from the git-go to stress that submitted videotapes are the property of the show, that [for example] no clip should run for more than about four minutes and should be property narrated, whether voice-over or onscreen narration, and editorializing or scurrility will cause a tape to be returned without further consideration. Information pertinent to the show should be useful and entertaining without much of a stess on specifics--too many people zone out when they think they are being lectured. If the people who produce the video clips for submission think that their topic is being trivialized in brief news bites, they are free to create a site of their own that would have back-up data, talking points, bibliography or whatever else someone looking for more info would want to check out. Whether you would let them market their books or CD's is something that should be worked out carefully due to tax consequences (see below).
What don't I myself want to see? Talking heads plural gassing about the industry is something -- ugh -- that would make me shut off the TV. There should be as minimal a studio component as necessary. Applied topics -- "Trains at War" or "Railroading Twenty Years From Now" draw ample critique and commentary here in these written posts but are a little too much like documentary material and could not be dealt with adequately in a small clip, nor even a half-hour TV show. Engaged debating whether political or not. A single-slant on a topic, such as open access. Too much in-talk: especially in broadcast or cable TV, where you run the risk (and the opportunity!) of picking up viewers who are comparatively ignorant on RR'ing in general. These turn me off and would probably turn off most viewers. And the show's clips should have enough variety so that one or two of the clips, at least, should interest the bulk of your viewing audience.
At some point you'll want to get the stuff out there; and if the enterprise is carefully set up as a 501(c)(3) [exemption from federal taxation as a not-for-profit organization] you'll have to mind your p's and q's in terms of fiscal reporting, but due to the lack of taxes it would help to keep your distribution costs low. You'll need a board, though, and founding members, and incorporation in one or another state of the Union. Distribution/dissemination: Perhaps marketing DVD's directly thru magazines like TRAINS might work. Perhaps something more modern, like blogging-up a You Tube-type site for the show, might be the way to go. The more traditional route would be to interest a syndicator or packager, who would probably edit what you have into a 22-minute "strip" ready to run with pauses for commercials; then he'd find advertising material (large-mouth bass lures, RR folk song) or a broadcast venue (ESPN-2 at three in the morning; you've got to stay modest at first). Yes, you'll probably have better luck plugging into a sports milieu because that is one of the hungriest parts of the cable medium. And why not? Trainspotting is as decent a hobby and sport as anything else.
Such compromises will probably be necessary to make even the smallest dent in the "big time." You might even want to structure your enterprise as the kind that takes donations from people, but here again you've got to have financial probity and the strictest standards. As an object lesson, you might want to look at some of the stuff the AAR has out there; if you're like me it will bore you to tears and offer some great examples of what to avoid!
Put simply, people who are in it for the recognition or money should never have gotten into the show in the first place. People who will work as a labor of love to see their dream realized -- no matter how small-time at first -- will be the ones who stick.
This idea deserves major "railroading." I wish you the best. A. Smalling
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Ted M.
got trains?™
See my photos at: http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
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