Sometimes Ive wondered what the USA would do if everyone had a three day work week with the other 4 needed to get ready for the next work week.
I also wonder how long before Railroads install Sleepers and crew dorms to the engines that seem to run the miles up until they are wore out and used up. Seems they would like to do away with the inconvient human and put a robot at the choo choo and dispose of all of those revenue-eating delays, laws, restrictions, problems etc etc etc.
Back in the 80s we had "protected" trainmen who might not work for months and get paid a salary. The one catch was they couldnt leave town because they were on call. Same thing in the clerks union guys got paid for years sometimes because they were protected pre 1981 i think. Some guys loved to work all the time we said they "lived to work not worked to live". If i had to work overtime i was told "just let the carrier dump money in your pocket"' That was 20 years ago people want a LIFE now. Also if i would have stayed they could move me every 5 years i think it was. All in all the money was good but being on the extra board was not worth it.
engineers/conductors you guys move the world gracefully thanks for the show with a touch of class.I thank ya
Although I've enjoyed the job and mostly enjoyed being an engineer, my years of service have taught me that it really isn't worth it. Can't go back and change it now but if you want to have a normal life and do normal things at regular times with regular people on a regular basis, you don't want to be a road employee on the railroad.
Oh, and Greyhounds, give it up, that's not a good idea.
jrw249 wrote:Appears Florida East Coast would be the railroad to work for. Trainsmag article states engineers and conductors make about $100,000 on a scheduled railroad.
If I could only find out how to apply with em I would.
Greyhounds.
You bring up something very good.
That River, he be slow... easy moving and occasionally rife with drama and danger. But most of the time... slow and easy.
Trains and trucks.. they rock and roll day and night under the draconian and unforgiving glare of the schedule.
My spouse told me enough was enough after about a year of team-driving. We were completely independant from the truck stop... except for repairs, fuel and safe haven when the weather got too bad.
That rig didnt stop 24/7 and frankly after that one year tour when I laid down in my bed the house would not stay still. It would take us about a month and a half before anything resembling our pre-trucking life with order and routine set in again.
A worker needs to have downtime, a life and basically a chance to live it before they are turned loose to pasture and left to thier devices with a body that is torn up and damaged from the work over the decades.
OK, everytime I bring this up I get in trouble.
Yep, you're in trouble again.
It's a bad idea, plain and simple. See, no cursing.
.
OK, everytime I bring this up I get in trouble. But I think it's a concept that deserves some consideration. It would deal with train crew fatigue and would give train crews regular, scheduled, cosecutive days off at home.
If a Mississippi River towboat crew can take a tow from St. Paul to New Orleans, why can't a train crew take a train from St. Paul to New Orleans?
Put a seven person crew on the train. Three engineers, three conductors, one cook. Give them accomodations in a passenger car - private rooms, showers, satelite TV, cell service, Internet access. But they stay with the train, just like the towboat crew stays on the boat.
An engineer/conductor team works four hours on then rests for eight hours. They're always rested and never work more than four hours at a stretch. They get done with their four hour shift, go back, have a nice meal prepared by the cook, take a snooze, surf the Internet, watch a movie, etc. Then they work another four hours.
They'd be on for say, seven days, then off at home for a scheduled three. (Or, on for 14, then off for seven. Whatever gets worked out between the railroad and the unions.)
Scheduled time home and no fatigue. The crews would just have to learn more length of railroad. But I'll guarantee you, those boat crews who know the entire river aren't any smarter than you are.
There are potential benifits to the railroad and potential benifits to the crews. It deserves a look. (And now, someone is going to curse me.)
BTW, I just threw in the towel myself. I wrote computer code on contract for various companies. This involved living out of suitcases in hotel rooms, but the money was good. Screw it. I'd rather have a life than money.
zugmann wrote: In my work on the RR, I listen to two groups of people out there. The more recent hires (10 years -) and the old timers (25 years +). The younger guys tell me it is worth it, stick it out, money, money, money. The older guys look back at their years of service and all tell me it just isn't worth it. Recently I talked with an older guy, with many years on the railroad. He finally has the seniority to hold a decent job with two regular days off. He has something planned for those days until the end of the year. He told me the same thing - it is not worth it. Sure there's money - but you sacrifice your life. It isn't like there are no other jobs that work weekends and holidays - but those you usually have some idea of when you'll be off and when you'll be working. You can actually take your car in for service, actually mow your lawn, go to festivals, etc. With this job, half your "off" time is spent in a hotel across state within walking distance to nothing. I'm sorry - but I don't consider that "off" time. Or you may get lucky - have 7 starts in 7 consecutive days and get a whopping 24 hour rest. (I've only had one of those all summer). Of course vacations will slowly fade way, and the boards will start to die; real great for those of us without guaranteed boards. (meaning no workie = no money). It is a shame - as the work isn't too bad - if we could only get some real time off. I have a feeling I may soon hang up my grip for the final time. Let some other money-chasing fool take my spot. I'll wave to you on my days off...Ps>> This is in addition to some other factors that are driving me away… such as poor crew management and planning. Sure it can make us money – but whom really wants to spend 20 hours in a motel just to be deadheaded home????
In my work on the RR, I listen to two groups of people out there. The more recent hires (10 years -) and the old timers (25 years +).
The younger guys tell me it is worth it, stick it out, money, money, money. The older guys look back at their years of service and all tell me it just isn't worth it. Recently I talked with an older guy, with many years on the railroad. He finally has the seniority to hold a decent job with two regular days off. He has something planned for those days until the end of the year. He told me the same thing - it is not worth it. Sure there's money - but you sacrifice your life.
It isn't like there are no other jobs that work weekends and holidays - but those you usually have some idea of when you'll be off and when you'll be working. You can actually take your car in for service, actually mow your lawn, go to festivals, etc. With this job, half your "off" time is spent in a hotel across state within walking distance to nothing. I'm sorry - but I don't consider that "off" time. Or you may get lucky - have 7 starts in 7 consecutive days and get a whopping 24 hour rest. (I've only had one of those all summer). Of course vacations will slowly fade way, and the boards will start to die; real great for those of us without guaranteed boards. (meaning no workie = no money).
It is a shame - as the work isn't too bad - if we could only get some real time off. I have a feeling I may soon hang up my grip for the final time. Let some other money-chasing fool take my spot. I'll wave to you on my days off...
Ps>> This is in addition to some other factors that are driving me away… such as poor crew management and planning. Sure it can make us money – but whom really wants to spend 20 hours in a motel just to be deadheaded home????
Zug -
I hear you. The amazing thing is that most of the old heads are pre-1985 Agreement guys and they earn a lot more than us "new" guys (post 1985) from all those nifty arbitraries we can't get. If the money isn't enough for them, well it isn't likely to be better for us.
I came to the RR from a better paying job so the money wasn't my only reason for coming. I have to say that the irregular hours, lack of any real schedule, missing out on everything, and not being able to relax (with or without alcohol or tobacco) really do weigh on you. The crew "management" issues are real and we have had guys practically keel over rather than mark off sick. One guy had a nasty kidney infection and just couldn't find time to get to the doctor until we picked him up off the ballast and put him in an ambulance one day. There may be other jobs that work long hours or weekends, but there is a huge difference in most of those jobs which is they have a predictable start or at least rough schedule. You can rough it on no schedule for a few weeks or even a few months, but the constant change eventually gives you that no sleep pallor and zombie feeling. Once when I was cut off, I discovered it took about two weeks of normal sleep and daytime activities to get me back to more or less normal.
I certainly wouldn't blame you for hitting the road, I think there are many who don't just because of the paycheck.
LC
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Yes, total wages look pretty good but that is for a 60-80 hour work week for months and years on end. That does not count the away from home time which is not compensated until you have been tied up on the other end for at least 16 hrs. Sure, you might like to cut back on the hours you work but the railroad has different ideas to minimize the fixed costs of employees.
So take the Forbes article with a grain of salt. I am sure some of the other wage ranges are a bit skewed by one factor or another. Also note the railroads do not seem to have a long line of applicants standing at the door trying to get in. The UP in particular is recruiting and advertising all along their lines trying to fill the job they have.
We earned about 67K one year on the road... I think it was 330 days on the road away from home out of 365 and half of those days were spent with just a few hours between runs emptying bloated mail boxes etc. I think we spent about 12 actual 24 hour periods at the house where one actually had a full night to sleep and a day to catch up on errands.
The money was good, very good in fact, too good. It piled up in the bank unspent. It really became a situation where you had a thousand plus dollar check deposited and it's like "Who cares?" 7 days later, another thousand rolls in... ho hum... back and forth from La to NYC twice a week.... fun. fun fun.
We dont live like that any more. We make do with much less each week and it is full of joy and enjoyment of home life when we are not completing our assigned hourly work. And good riddiance to demanding dispatchers who thinks the USA will stop functioning if that 4 month old moldy load of toilet paper and kitchen towels didnt make it to the reciever in time.
Because of our improvement in health at home we think that jobs that demand away from home time are best suited for young folk who are single and unmarried and does not own a home.
broncoman wrote: I work for an electric and gas utility in CA in which any job that has a "journeyman" attatched to it, i.e. Lineman, Welder, Machinest, Mechanic has a base salary of around $70k for a 40 hour work week. Even with that we still have a tough time finding new apprentices. Overtime was voluntary for the most part but as the large amount of boomers start to retire and a lack of replacements are available, forced overtime starts to become the norm.I think both UP and BNSF are in the middle of the oops we didn't hire people lately and we now have too many people retiring and not enough replacements. I find it shocking that with what they pay that they can't seem to get enough replacements to do the job.
I work for an electric and gas utility in CA in which any job that has a "journeyman" attatched to it, i.e. Lineman, Welder, Machinest, Mechanic has a base salary of around $70k for a 40 hour work week. Even with that we still have a tough time finding new apprentices. Overtime was voluntary for the most part but as the large amount of boomers start to retire and a lack of replacements are available, forced overtime starts to become the norm.
I think both UP and BNSF are in the middle of the oops we didn't hire people lately and we now have too many people retiring and not enough replacements. I find it shocking that with what they pay that they can't seem to get enough replacements to do the job.
Once you have done the job you will understand why so many people leave. All the missed occasions, calls to work 24/7/365 takes a toll on lives. Take out the ability to enjoy the occasional beer anytime around when you go to work, the 6+ day work week on most jobs and you really have to love it. The divorce rate is extremely high. It takes a LOT of cash to buy off one (or more) ex-wives...
Safety Valve wrote: They may be paid well, but frankly they are tied to the Duty via telephone 365 days/ 24/7. If they are not working, they are probably resting, eating and getting cleaned up rather fast to prepare for the next duty time. "Working to work" if you please.It is better to make that kind of money and work a 40 hour week with the rest of the time you call your own time.
They may be paid well, but frankly they are tied to the Duty via telephone 365 days/ 24/7. If they are not working, they are probably resting, eating and getting cleaned up rather fast to prepare for the next duty time. "Working to work" if you please.
It is better to make that kind of money and work a 40 hour week with the rest of the time you call your own time.
Not exactly true that the two types of higher paid blue collars I work with get the big bucks on just a 40 hours week. For almost a year, Chrysler's Belvedere, IL plant had mandatory 10 hour shifts for 6 or 7 days. Also many auto assembly line workers retire after 20 or 30 years with fairly racked up bodies from the physical labor involved. Electrical utility lineman also have to hang pretty close to the phone, and then there is the thing about making repairs before the thunderstorm has passed over.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
solzrules wrote: Limitedclear wrote: Actually, one of the reasons I posted this is if you read the article you will find that railroads have risen by comparison to other blue collar wages because railroading is one of the few occupations that can't be outsourced overseas...LCYep. That has been the case with most blue collar work in this nation. If you are skilled and in a job that can't be outsourced, you are in high demand. Part of the reason for this is that most high schools view blue collar work as a dead end job. If you don't have a college degree, you are pretty much not useful. Very few counselors actually will encourage students to study a trade like the railroad (or construction, for that matter). What is even harder to find are students that excel in math and reading who want to pursue careers in these fields. They are told that you need a college degree to suceed, and this simply is not the case. There is a lot of money to be made if you are looking at skilled labor. It is too bad that it has such a negative reputation to it.
Limitedclear wrote: Actually, one of the reasons I posted this is if you read the article you will find that railroads have risen by comparison to other blue collar wages because railroading is one of the few occupations that can't be outsourced overseas...LC
Actually, one of the reasons I posted this is if you read the article you will find that railroads have risen by comparison to other blue collar wages because railroading is one of the few occupations that can't be outsourced overseas...
Yep. That has been the case with most blue collar work in this nation. If you are skilled and in a job that can't be outsourced, you are in high demand. Part of the reason for this is that most high schools view blue collar work as a dead end job. If you don't have a college degree, you are pretty much not useful. Very few counselors actually will encourage students to study a trade like the railroad (or construction, for that matter). What is even harder to find are students that excel in math and reading who want to pursue careers in these fields. They are told that you need a college degree to suceed, and this simply is not the case.
There is a lot of money to be made if you are looking at skilled labor. It is too bad that it has such a negative reputation to it.
On the other hand my family includes an aeronautical engineer and a software engineer, both doing the six figure tango with just 4 year degrees.
Edited:
Went overboard with a soapbox.
Let's just say the High school students are led like sheep to the shearing house of the Finance department.
Safety Valve wrote: Limitedclear wrote: Actually, one of the reasons I posted this is if you read the article you will find that railroads have risen by comparison to other blue collar wages because railroading is one of the few occupations that can't be outsourced overseas...LCSure they can. Remote signalling, switching, robot locomotives... shipper/reciever loading etc.
Sure they can. Remote signalling, switching, robot locomotives... shipper/reciever loading etc.
Don't hold your breath on that. FRA has already required that dispatchers for U.S. railroads be on U.S. soil. So the remote signalling and switching can't head overseas. "Robot locomotives" don't yet exist beyond a handful of transit applications (non-RR) and it is very doubtful that even if they are approved that live human train crews won't be required for safety purposes. FRA won't even permit single person RCL crews beyond certain limited circumstances and I doubt that will change much given the current fascination with grade crossing and trespasser fatalities. Shipper/receiver loading/unloading (e.g. unit trains at mines and grain elevators) has a minimal impact on train crews as most of those are new facilities, so the effect is largely limited to a reduction in branch line crews to smaller elevators and mines.
Having been a regular working stiff at one time, I understand that various tax and benefit withholdings can take a big wack out of the gross pay. For railroaders, the extra points taken out for Railroad Retirement makes the situation a little tougher. On the other hand, Railroad Retirement pensions do run a little better than 50% of what one would receive under Social Security. Of course if your retirement is 20 or 30 years out, that bit of news doesn't mean much when your current bills arrive.
I will be the first to agree that a 50 grand a year gross family income is not going to have you living very high on the hog. May I offer this caution for those of you that are currently working for railroads. Don't assume that the grass is actually greener on the other side of the fence. As some of you know, I have a tax business and thus see the income records of a fairly large client base. Among my clients, most taxpayers with income from wages over $50,000 have both the husband and wife working. The only exceptions that I see come from auto assembly plant workers and electric utility lineman. Of course my survey is not scientific and there are likely other blue collar jobs that pay more. However, those jobs may also require extensive skill training and seniority to get the better bucks.
Everything depends on individual circumstances, but if your seniority will get you to the top pay levels-I have heard $70k- in some reasonable period of time, then you might want to keep on railroading.
wow.. i didnt know that 45k a year was big bucks in this day an age... i wonder if they took into consideration health insurance deductions... union dues...job insurance premiums.. life and accidental dismemberment insurance preiums... and the higher deductions for RRR into consideration.. after they all get a cut of your check.. there isnt a hell of alot to live on afterwards... now this is yard rate... what was 45k quickly turns into a little over 20k a year with all of that pluse taxes taken out of it... and the trade off for making the "big bucks" on the railroad is your home and personal life suffer due to working long hours and being away from home..and not realy haveing a true sence of when you will be comeing and going to and from work... just my 2 cents on that...
csx engineer
The general public believes that rr workers are living in a upper class culture and that simply isn't so. It depends on the job one may be working on. If you're on a yd job, which gets very little or no ot, then you're on the low end of the pay scale and won't be making anything close to a mainline xtra bd or pool job that claims high miles. I'm single, have no debts, 20% of what i make goes into my 401 and after bills are paid, i really don't have much left, but I can get by w/no problem w/what I earn. If I had a family, I would be struggling just to get by. In contrast, a good friend of mine works @ a refinery, works M-F w/ot, makes $80,000 yrly (i'm not close to that amount)and has a life outside of his job.
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