Should the Government Breakup Union Pacific?

[Anonymous]

The bigger question is the lack of competitive rail access most shippers deal with these days due to the unfortunate megamergers of the 1990's. The STB under Linda Morgan was simply a hack agency run vicariously by the Class I giants, and the result was a major squashing of rail competition in the West and East. Only a narrow strip in the Midwest has more than two carriers to access. The UP/SP and BN/SF mergers should never have been allowed, at least not without some captive rail issues dealt with firstly.

So should UP, BNSF. et al, be broken up? Yes, if the breakup is VERTICAL. If the operating divisions are separated from the infrastructure divisions, then the problem of captive shippers is solved. Then UP and BNSF's operating companies can merge for all I care, because it would be relatively easy for a new operating company to provide competition for such a conglomerate. With such an AT&T style breakup, a shipper in Montana could access any of the Class I operators for rate quotes, be it NS, CSX, KCS, CP, CN, UP, or BNSF, or any combination thereof. If no Class I operators want to provide such competition, then that would open the door for a DM&E or MRL to step into the void.

That is the true essence of a capitalistic society. Leaving the quasi-monopolistic status quo as is will only lead to more shipper complaints and eventual government action, thence a sorry trip back in time to an era of re-regulation via the typical knee jerk government response.

[oltmannd]

Splitting a RR is a hard thing to do - much harder than putting two together. For some good evidence, look at how hard it was to split Conrail up. One of the hardest parts would be splitting the computer systems that run the RR. Not so much the dispatching systems, but the systems that route the traffic and record the movement of the cars.

UP is guilty of poor planning. They did not properly plan for enough crews to handle the train service plan they put in place to handle their traffic. This is a major blunder for which they are paying a heavy price. I'd guess that the basic problem is lack of communication and/or trust between marketing, crew managment, and service design and is indicative of a vertically integrated management structure - typical "old way" of managing a RR.

[fuzzybroken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

didnt SP manage themselves into bankruptcy?

Not really. A lot of SP's problems came from the ill-fated SPSF merger. Santa Fe and SP went under a holding company (because they couldn't merge "yet") and then when the ICC said no -- make that NO -- SP was sold off, minus their non-RR assets. So yeah, it was a management problem, but the SP wasn't bankrupt. Just a dirty poor offspring of a failed merger.

...And then they dragged Rio Grande into it. [:(][banghead]

Corporate-entity-speaking, according to a message I got from another forum, the SP that UP merged with was actually the former Rio Grande corporation, and the UP assumed this corporation and dissolved the "old" UP when they merged with SP... [banghead][banghead]

I don't support any breakup of UP, even though I don't really like to see C&NW, SP, and Rio Grande disappear under gray and yellow... [:(]

[2c][2c],
-Mark Hintz
http://www.geocities.com/fuzzybroken

[RudyRockvilleMD]

NO! There are no grounds for breaking up the Union Pacific!

[StillGrande]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

Make UP spin off the SP/D&RGW,and C&NW.Split BNSF into Santa Fe & Burlington Northern.Split CSX into Chessie System & Seaboard System.NS should be left as it is as it is not too large to manage efficiently.

Then they can all duplicate the same work, drive the prices into the ground, and all fold up and rust away when they can't afford to compete with trucking. All the railroads selected the mergers as a way to survive and MAKE MONEY. If the mergee was strong enough, there wouldn't have been any desire to merge (or they would have been able to fight off a hostile merger). Get over it.

As far as UP enforcing their trademarks, get over it. In one of the recent TRAINS articles they mention that most of the rail corps license their trademarks for use and control who uses it. Some are more lax with tracking down every jo schmo who uses it. Try selling a coffee mug in stores with Norfolk Southern on it and see how long it is before their happy lawyers come calling.

[espeefoamer]

Make UP spin off the SP/D&RGW,and C&NW.Split BNSF into Santa Fe & Burlington Northern.Split CSX into Chessie System & Seaboard System.NS should be left as it is as it is not too large to manage efficiently.

[dharmon]

Where's ole KPH been anyway?????? We've had plenty of controversy lately but no good old fashioned paraniod conspiracies........Did he need to get back home before Mars and Earth got too far apart again? [;)]

[Anonymous]

I worked for SP. UP was always our enemy. However, I have to admit that perhaps they were the best managed if not the more romantic of the two railroads. Unfortunately they gobbled up the SP after boasting for decades that they would some day. Maybe they know how to run a business better than most other railroads did. They still have to compete against all the truckers around the country. If they can hold their own in a society that demands next day delivery and do their part in keeping a strong economy, then I say let them be.

[Anonymous]

A much as i don't like U.P. I "DO" understand that we do need U.P......alot. no the gov,t should,t break up the UNION PACIFIC..........as for tresspassing the RAILROADS "DO" have a right to arrest anyone ,that i do idmit ...any smart railfan should no this.I have never been bothered by the r.r. or the cops.mrlove.

[wallyworld]

I don't understand what royalty payments for decals on model trains and railfan trespassing issues have to do with the either the federal government breaking up Union Pacific or the connection to what the public's reaction to it would be.
It's a pretty bizarre train of thought. I take it you are angry at UP. Beyond that, you lost me.

[Anonymous]

It'll never happen but wouldn't we wish? Huge conglomerate companies are so incredibly out of touch with customers and employees it's sick. Listening to the big-wigs schpeal and the catchy slogans, then seeing the "real world" of how they run things makes me wanna vomit. The govt doesn't and will never have the balls to step on any of these mighty toes to stir anything up--they're all too tied in together. One thing they could try is opening up trackage rights to other carriers in areas where customers are getting jacked around by these bullies; if UP or BNSF don't want the business, let someone else in who does.

[Anonymous]

I don't think they should. I'm not a big UP fan myself, but who knows what would happen if they broke 'em up. I don't want to take a chance.

[Anonymous]

The industry will remain strong with or without the UP. The traffic needs to flow. Where the traffic needs rails they will ever remain.

LC

[UPTRAIN]

AMEN!!!

[daveklepper]

The competition for railroad freight is trucking and barges. Breaking up UP would make the railroad industry weaker, not stronger. I'm all for a strong railroad industry. That is the bottom line for me.

[UPTRAIN]

I hope they don't break up.....I WORK FOR EM!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by K. P. Harrier

It seems one cannot stop and wave at a UP train anymore without fear of going to jail. It seems one cannot decal a model locomotive with UP on it without some type of royalty payment. If the government decreed a breakup of the UP into two or three roads, it seems few tears would ever be shed.

K.P.

You have not stated any legal reason for the breakup of the Union Pacific. The government cannot simply decree a breakup without significant justification. The protections against government siezures of private property are among the strongest in our Constitution. Ther bare allegations you have raised are inadequate to support a lawsuit, much less a breakup. Corporate break ups such as that of AT&T are done as a result of violations of the Antitrust laws (Sherman Act). Railroads, by virtue of their separate regulation by the Surface Transportation Board (STB) and previously by the Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC) are exempt from the provisions of these antitrust laws in large measure. As there isn't even any problem with antitrust even raised by your allegations, there can't legally be a breakup of the UP. So, as others have said for equally valid factual reasons, don't hold your breath.

Not too bad for an old throttle jock...

LC

[espeefoamer]

The government doesn't have to break up the UP.A few more mergers and they will collapse under thier own weight.

[techguy57]

KP Harrier: There is really no right or wrong answer to your initial question, rather any answer is merely a matter of preference or opinion. Personally I would say no for the same reasons dharmon and mudchicken already answered. Thats how big business works.

But I think you should really be asking "WILL the government break up Union Pacific?" My response to that is probably not any time soon. UP has been careful to dot their I's and cross their T's, and I think the politicians are a little busy with their supersized version of RISK, trying to figure out how to make the military cover Afghanistan and Iraq while trying to keep the US and our other interests safe at the same time.( Another 300 reservists just the other day.) But if they wanted to dig up dirt on UP I'm sure they could. I don't know if they'd find anything incriminating enogh to cause a breakup but I'm sure they could find enough to pester UP and cause some financial greif.

Like mudchicken said the government is not likely to reverse its decisions quickly, and since UP, among others, continues to find fortune in increasing deregulation I think they are fairly safe at this time.

And yes, despite the fact that I have no business or financial related interest in the Union Pacific, I am a fan and love to watch the local GP-40s run through town. Especially the yard trains in their original livery colors (CNW, SP and DRGW)[:D]

There you go.

Mike

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken

Yeah ding-a-ling. Let's bust up the company I work for so you guys can take pretty pictures and because you are pissed that you cannot tresspass to take pictures. I have a wonderful idea........Lets break up the company that you work for and ruin your job security because I am pissed at your company. Being a foamer is O.K. if that is what you like, and I always wave at the kids and foamers and toot for them. But, remember. The RRs are not here for your enjoyment. They are here to turn a profit and move freight.....period! They don't give a rats *ss if you want to take pictures or not. You guys need to quit whining about UP (as chicken s**t as they are) copyrighting their logo. Geez, the NFL has done it forever. They should, it IS theirs. Bottom line is if you are not tresspassing or acting like a goofball we will leave you alone. If you are tresspassing on RR property, you will probably catch some static. If I went to Wal-Mart and was poking around behind the building, I would probably be hasseled by the cops or security. I would have no business there as you have no business on RR property.
Ken

Easy big guy. I didn't mean to rattle your cage [soapbox] I was and will probably be again a railroader. [:D] But you gotta admit they're getting a little bit too big for their britches[V]

[jwar]

If it was broken up, would it be like AT&T, of which got into my wallet fairley quik8ley (pun intended). If it was broken up dont you think they would find a manner to make money, there not where they are today by being stupid and not looking at all aspects. Id worry if they were broken up, higher tarriffs and all. Hey at least there not sending the jobs overseas as like the tech from Dell I chatted with, In India, trouble shooting this computor

I worked for two Roads which were inhaled by the behemoths, both were in trouble and sold out.

[Anonymous]

Yeah ding-a-ling. Let's bust up the company I work for so you guys can take pretty pictures and because you are pissed that you cannot tresspass to take pictures. I have a wonderful idea........Lets break up the company that you work for and ruin your job security because I am pissed at your company. Being a foamer is O.K. if that is what you like, and I always wave at the kids and foamers and toot for them. But, remember. The RRs are not here for your enjoyment. They are here to turn a profit and move freight.....period! They don't give a rats *ss if you want to take pictures or not. You guys need to quit whining about UP (as chicken s**t as they are) copyrighting their logo. Geez, the NFL has done it forever. They should, it IS theirs. Bottom line is if you are not tresspassing or acting like a goofball we will leave you alone. If you are tresspassing on RR property, you will probably catch some static. If I went to Wal-Mart and was poking around behind the building, I would probably be hasseled by the cops or security. I would have no business there as you have no business on RR property.
Ken

[Anonymous]

[2c] It wouldn't hurt my feelings any. [|(] And while your at it bust up the BNSF too[#ditto]

[K. P. Harrier]

The forum to date on this topic speaks words of practicality. But you may want to read the topic UNION PACIFIC IS POWERLESS AGAINST A SUPER FEARFUL THING.

Concerning lapsed trademarked names of fallen flags now within UP #8230; this one will be interesting to watch. The Union Pacific name is on solid ground. Fallen flag names, well, I have my doubts if they were not renewed in a timely manner.

[Train Guy 3]

Even if UP was broken up, isnt there a chance in the future that it would all just merge back together.

[Anonymous]

Lets break up UP and melt the economy again! What about BNSF then?

We are just starting to get back to profits and good corporate spending. Never happen unless Mr Bush wants to lose the election.

If the goal is to bring back the glory days just let the market handle it self. Look at the airlines. All the big players just got bigger and stupid, but it also allow for smaller start ups to appear (South West, Jet Blue).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by K. P. Harrier

It seems one cannot stop and wave at a UP train anymore without fear of going to jail. It seems one cannot decal a model locomotive with UP on it without some type of royalty payment. If the government decreed a breakup of the UP into two or three roads, it seems few tears would ever be shed.

There is a lot of romanticizing over the fallen flags of yore,... the smaller companies had more character, so people could identify with them better, and there is the "back yard" syndrome....but honestly there isn't a single one of those older, smaller companies that wouldn't have built every single mile of profitable track in the country, if they had access to the capital to do so,...the "conglomeration" in a way is natural and to be expected, do you think it woud be much different if the name were "Rock Island" or SSW instead of UP? I doubt it, personally

[Anonymous]

If they broke up UP, then BNSF, then NS, then CSX, I wouldn't mind....at least not if rrs like the B&O, C&O, Southern, etc. came back. Hey, the B&O lasted over 100 years, and it had a local influance on almost every community (It built most of the ones around here). I'd say reverse the mergers!

Of course that never would happen, even if Daniel Willard came back from the grave!

[JLLentner]

Why should UP be broken up?