K.P. Your pictures sent me to Google Maps and the SPV Atlas to look at the track layouts around Cajon Pass and I noted on the Atlas and then on Google that there is a piece of track shown off the UP (former SP) line as it begins to turn NW North of the Pass called Cal-Ed Spur. The junction is/was Hivolt. G maps shows the spur disconnected from the main and ending in empty ties. I suspect that it was something for the utility There are homes on the north side of the track on a street named Prarie Trail which ends near a high volrage substation.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cajon+Pass/@34.3646498,-117.3867664,292m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c343944295ffa7:0xef4c8df8cdbb2a8f!8m2!3d34.3258363!4d-117.4283818
Can you tell me anything about it?
On the plus side the fires have aided in brush clearing ...
Great photos, K.P.!
K. P. HarrierSouth of Highway 138 at Summit is orange construction fencing. Question is, how much of that hill will have to be cut away to lower the road?
Postings elsewhere speculate that much of the dirt scraped off of the above hill would be used for 'fill' on the new road. The USACE pdf details show that many bridges over normally dry washes will be built, and the approaches will probably be supported by retaining walls (more MSE?). Any remaining dirt may go to nearby 'borrow pits' used by the railroads and Caltrans contractors for decades. Ironically the construction includes reseeding and replanting disturbed terrain with native grasses and bushes, thus speeding the fire recovery along.
As far as the road shoulder 'safety' issues, I think Caltrans and the CHP will worry more about the effects of inept drivers bypassing I-15 during inclement weather (fog, rain, even snow).
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
MikeF90 (1-3): S. R. 138 (Continued)
Immediately west of Summit, on the west slope, the present S.R. 138 winds through the hills.
All that winding will be eliminated with the new swooping roadway.
How good the tracks (and trains) will be able to be seen is not clear at this time, but the relocated Highway 138 will have wide shoulders, and cars could park on the shoulders. If the view of tracks inspires railfans to park and take photos here and there, Caltrans may not have anticipated how dangerous the rerouted highway could be. Even wider shoulders here and there for photographing trains would be a safety idea Caltrans probably hasn’t thought of.
Thanks, MikeF90, for alerting us of this development,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
On the east side, the eastern construction limit of Highway 138 is at ‘Post Office Road’ (right).
The Summit post office on that road has been gone for decades.
The present road coming down the eastern slope:
In studying Caltrans material, it seems like Highway 138 will be lowered greatly here heading west. Possibly even level with the track elevation of the 1972 track relocation, the cut through the hills immediately west of the Summit crossovers and CP.
South of Highway 138 at Summit is orange construction fencing.
Question is, how much of that hill will have to be cut away to lower the road?
Continued …
MikeF90 (1-3): S. R. 138
As a ‘local’ to Cajon Pass, your post about Caltrans officially starting the re-alignment of State Route 138 was thrilling news to me!
Your links gave much detail. I just happened to be dispatched through Cajon Pass on Wednesday, January 4, 2017, so I took the opportunity to see what was happening (if anything), and found exciting things!
On Highway 138, the west limit sign, just east of where four lanes become two lanes eastward:
About midway between the I-15 Freeway and Summit, at the local dirt road, equipment and materials were staged.
At Summit, by the eastern limits of the project, a stopped BNSF westbound train started heading down the Hill (west slope) and passed much burnt landscape (bottom of photo) from the “Blue Cut” fire back in August.
So many westbound trains stop at Summit it makes one wonder how practical triple-tracking the west slope really was. It would seem it would be to BNSF’s advantage to triple track eastward, from Martinez to at least Lugo, maybe even to Hesperia or potentially to Frost. Maybe even triple-track the west slope’s Main 1 or the old “North Track” route.
Previously K.P. posted that SR-138 currently is being widened to the west of I-15, much of the way toward the busy SR-18. Now comes word that the long anticipated project to 'straighten' SR-138 over Cajon summit (to the east) is being moved forward by CalTrans:
http://www.spl.usace.army.mil/Portals/17/docs/publicnotices/SR138_realignment.pdf
http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist8/documents/sr138/SR-138-EAST-ALIGNMENT-FACT-SHEET-082016.pdf
The first PDF above contains some detailed drawings of the area. As proposed, the highway will be rebuilt with two lanes and wide shoulders. The existing road will be decommissioned and removed. No arroyo toads are anticipated to be affected.
Second Section
Early on in this thread, when the west slope of Cajon Pass was being triple-tracked, K.P. speculated because one signal bridge (a full bridge and not a cantilever structure) was of the old design, and likely was at Daggett before …
… that maybe BNSF would someday route its north-south California traffic via UP’s Palmdale Cutoff instead of the 40 miles longer present route through Barstow. K.P. has not heard anything about that, and the odd signal bridge still stands. But, someday there may be some development that would make UP amiable to allowing BNSF on the Palmdale Cutoff, and that may (“may”) be the logic in erecting that three-track signal bridge instead of a standard two-track cantilever structure.
However, working against that possibility is UP’s direct route from Mojave to Los Angeles, part of it now owned by Metrolink, is seeing congestion on that Metrolink owned portion. UP often routes trains now away from the direct route over Metrolink, and many UP trains now take the long way around via Cajon Pass …
… and West Colton Yard via the Sunset Route. But, realistically, adding two to four trains (one or two north-south pairs) to the Palmdale Cutoff would not be a problem, as the Palmdale Cutoff is far, far away from reaching capacity.
This will end the Second Section.
The Lenwood Road Overpass
Lenwood, CA (West of Barstow)
Part “C” (of A-C)
That universal crossover location again from on top of the tracks looking westbound:
The CP again just east of Lenwood Road:
From on top the overpass looking semi-north and the roadway:
A final view, of the only train that came by while K.P. was on site, a UP (LA&SL) from Salt Lake City that got on the BNSF at Daggett.
This will conclude the series. However, a Second Section follows.
Part “B” (of A-C)
From on top of the overpass, right over the tracks, an eastbound view:
Above, conspicuous is that the two main tracks have wooden ties, whereas the connector track has concrete ones.
Offset, looking westbound, the CP LENWOOD universal crossover arrangement is in a slight dip, a favorite tactic of BNSF track layout designers, as that way trains stop on the downward slant and are easier to get moving again.
It is unknown if the land east of the overpass belongs to an army surplus dealer or scrapper, but a lot of army green equipment is by the overpass.
Continued in Part C
Part “A” (of A-C)
The Lenwood Road overpass is an up and over structure, with fencing and sidewalks on each side.
Continued in Part B
KP
Here is a link that may complicate your posts about some new signals going back to incadescent. This product info does not state whether already shipping or just developed. Maybe RR waiting for product using regular lens temporary ? A question to ask in the field ?
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/rail_product_news/details/GEs-Current-Ace8482-LED-railway-signal--50160
McDonald’s Open
For those interested, the McDonald’s restaurant most closely associated with the I-15 Freeway and Highway 138 in the area near CP CAJON is open again!
Thread readers will remember the restaurant was damaged in the recent super fast moving “Blue Cut” fire, and that disrupted railfans’ ability to easily chow down while in the Pass.
The interior is laid out basically as before, but new seats and tables give the interior a very different look.
Lenwood Road Overpass
K.P. was involved in a many hours dispatch to Barstow on Saturday, November 19, 2016, with an hour or two free time, so made it a point to photograph the new Lenwood Road overpass now open. Some photos of and on the overpass will be posted in a few days for those interested in such things. The views show the Cajon Sub as never seen before …
MikeF90 BaltACD Good to hear confirmation from a rail. I've noticed that BNSF, more than UP, has some 2MT lines with longer distances between universal crossovers. Perhaps we'll see four miles between intermediates and 12 miles between u/c in the near future. A 5/15 spread would divide up the existing ~10 mile blocks more evenly.
BaltACD
Good to hear confirmation from a rail. I've noticed that BNSF, more than UP, has some 2MT lines with longer distances between universal crossovers. Perhaps we'll see four miles between intermediates and 12 miles between u/c in the near future. A 5/15 spread would divide up the existing ~10 mile blocks more evenly.
My carrier has been respacing intermediates approximately on 3 mile spacing. PTC's requirements have basically forced the signals on PTC routes to be replaced - control points and intermediates.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDConsidering my carrier (which isn't one of the Western carriers) now has 14K feet as it's current max length - I have no fear that in coming years that the max will be increased to 16K or 18K. Historically, Western carriers have operated longer trains than Eastern carriers.
K. P. Harrier. MikeF90 (11-13): It is not clear where you are coming from in bringing up CP SILVERWOOD, but I envision CP SILVERWOOD to be an extension of CP SUMMIT, though technically they are separate CP’s. I’ve always considered there to be about three miles between CP SUMMIT and CP MARTINEZ and likewise between CP MARTINEZ and CP LUGO. I can’t imagine a train being three miles long. So there shouldn’t be a non-fitter. K.P.
MikeF90 (11-13):
It is not clear where you are coming from in bringing up CP SILVERWOOD, but I envision CP SILVERWOOD to be an extension of CP SUMMIT, though technically they are separate CP’s. I’ve always considered there to be about three miles between CP SUMMIT and CP MARTINEZ and likewise between CP MARTINEZ and CP LUGO. I can’t imagine a train being three miles long. So there shouldn’t be a non-fitter.
Considering my carrier (which isn't one of the Western carriers) now has 14K feet as it's current max length - I have no fear that in coming years that the max will be increased to 16K or 18K. Historically, Western carriers have operated longer trains than Eastern carriers.
Replies
rcdrye (5-5):
The absolute signals at CP MARTINEZ display flashing red when there is a train ahead and the DS has lined the signal (assumedly), and under that condition trains don’t have to stop but just keep going at reduced speed if the tail end of the train ahead is sufficiently ahead to do so. I saw that myself not long ago! But, I have a sneaky suspicion the southern mast signals at CP MARTINEZ are really intermediates without number plates so they have to be treated as absolutes. The track designation changes at that southern signal, Main 3 to the west and Main 2 to the east.
David1005 (7-23):
Upper Cajon Blvd. is still pretty good, but there are a few glaringly rough spots. And, the curve just south of I-15 Freeway on Cleghorn Road I always lose half my dental fillings on … well, almost …
Sorry for the late reply … I was having my dental fillings replaced. (Hehehe.)
Electroliner 1935 (11-12):
You know, I don’t know. The ‘Blue Cut’ fire was a strange one, and its strangeness may have repercussions unanticipated. It would seem the skippity hop nature of the fire would have its own pattern consequence, with unburned vegetation having water-heavy ground collapsing and washing out scorched ground below it.
Being in a drought, locals almost have to consult a dictionary because we have almost forgotten what the word rain means!
My guess is the Cajon Pass railroads won’t have much trouble. But, who knows! Maybe the Blue Cut area will see a freak rain and half the mountain will collapse and block both the UP and also the BNSF Transcon for a few weeks. But, if I was a betting man, I would bet the railroads won’ have any trouble.
BaltACD (11-12):
I would expect such too, as it would make things much more free-flowing.
An unusual operating property of the east slope for all practical purposes is that all trains both upward or downward seem to travel at the same speed, so there is little need to get one train around another in that stretch. That would explain the lack of crossovers between CP LUGO and CP FROST, and why that stretch has so many intermediate signals with NO electronic interlocking plants or CP’s (Control Points).
OK, I think everybody has been replied to.
Take care all,
BaltACDSurprised that they installed such a limited control point. I would have expected a control point with crossovers to allow access between all 5 track segments.
Between CP Summit and CP Silverwood, there are enough crossovers to constitute a 'universal' between all three mains. Extending the third main to CP Martinez (siding upgrade) was probably an interim situation until the 2008 Great Recession hit; a 'no fitter' just barely fits between Martinez and Summit. Extending three miles to CP Lugo would at least allow some trains to 'slow roll'.
If traffic levels climb enough in the future or if Metrolink gets some Trump Infrastructure Improvement bucks for Hesperia or Victorville service (hah) five more miles of a third main to Hesperia would add some flexibility for the DS. As always, time will tell.
K. P. HarrierThe End of the Line for this Thread Part III (of I-III) The track arrangement at CP MARTINEZ is where three-tracks from the west become two-tracks to the east. That three-track to two-track location likely is a permanent one. Arguing that the arrangement at CP MARTINEZ is a permanent one is the newer cantilever structure there in lieu of an older signal bridge. That arrangement seems fine in practice, but westbound trains tend to back up on the east slope. But, K.P. has concluded BNSF is not interested in a wide scale free-flowing system, but just to get hot trains over the road. However, an unexplainable phenomena in the above two photos is the north (left) right-of-way is cleared wide, as if (“as if”) Main 1 COULD continue east someday as three-tracks. But that does not mesh with CP LUGO and the newer cantilever signal bridges there. Maybe (“maybe”) someday the signal spacing between CP SUMMIT and CP LUGO will be changed from the 1972 arrangement between those two CP’s presently as two three mile blocks (that is unlike anywhere else on Cajon Pass) to three two mile blocks. Or, possibly a new CP could be put in between CP MARTINEZ and CP LUGO that would replace the present CP MARTINEZ. When up on that overlook hill area taking the just above two photos, the eastbound (above photos bottom train) stopped at a red signal. From that hill the tracks can be seen to the west, and the old, steeper pre-1972 routing can be seen also (right). That stopped train on Main 1 (first two photos above) was overtaken by a couple of hotshots on the center track (Main 2), the first overtaking train seen in the just above photo. It soon passed the stopped train. Anyway, the point of this posting series is further triple-tracking likely will NOT come about, and the relatively new cantilevered color light signals at CP LUGO sort of strongly suggests that. Thus, this thread will go into hibernation. Maybe something will start brewing in twenty or thirty years, and in that case the hibernation likely will be a very long one. This will end the series.
Part III (of I-III)
The track arrangement at CP MARTINEZ is where three-tracks from the west become two-tracks to the east. That three-track to two-track location likely is a permanent one.
Arguing that the arrangement at CP MARTINEZ is a permanent one is the newer cantilever structure there in lieu of an older signal bridge.
That arrangement seems fine in practice, but westbound trains tend to back up on the east slope. But, K.P. has concluded BNSF is not interested in a wide scale free-flowing system, but just to get hot trains over the road.
However, an unexplainable phenomena in the above two photos is the north (left) right-of-way is cleared wide, as if (“as if”) Main 1 COULD continue east someday as three-tracks. But that does not mesh with CP LUGO and the newer cantilever signal bridges there. Maybe (“maybe”) someday the signal spacing between CP SUMMIT and CP LUGO will be changed from the 1972 arrangement between those two CP’s presently as two three mile blocks (that is unlike anywhere else on Cajon Pass) to three two mile blocks. Or, possibly a new CP could be put in between CP MARTINEZ and CP LUGO that would replace the present CP MARTINEZ.
When up on that overlook hill area taking the just above two photos, the eastbound (above photos bottom train) stopped at a red signal.
From that hill the tracks can be seen to the west, and the old, steeper pre-1972 routing can be seen also (right).
That stopped train on Main 1 (first two photos above) was overtaken by a couple of hotshots on the center track (Main 2), the first overtaking train seen in the just above photo. It soon passed the stopped train.
Anyway, the point of this posting series is further triple-tracking likely will NOT come about, and the relatively new cantilevered color light signals at CP LUGO sort of strongly suggests that. Thus, this thread will go into hibernation. Maybe something will start brewing in twenty or thirty years, and in that case the hibernation likely will be a very long one.
This will end the series.
Surprised that they installed such a limited control point. I would have expected a control point with crossovers to allow access between all 5 track segments.
K. P. HarrierYou’ve probably been noting all the boulders. They have been used in years past to stabilize the ‘river’ during severe rainstorms. Even with such riprap the tracks have been known to get completely washed out. NO super severe storms have fallen on the now triple-track line. California has been in a severe drought for years now. How will the triple-track line fare if it rained for a month? In February 1969 it did rain for nearly a month. Rivers were swollen. It is hard to visualize such a time in a drought, but historically a few times per century such storms visit Cajon Pass. Will the triple-tracking of the past decade or so survive the next prolonged deluge?
Missed this in a previous read. K.P. Since the fires, do you expect rain to be a greater threat without any plants though what burned did not look like it provided much absorbancy to reduce runoff.?
The End of the Line for this Thread
Part II (of I-III)
On the EAST slope of Cajon Pass where the degree of uphill steepness changes, at CP LUGO, cantilevered signals were erected a few years ago in conjunction with the conversion of target signals to color light ones and to conform to the Positive Train Control regulations. The spacing of those cantilever signals at each end of CP LUGO is only long enough for a two-track universal crossovers arrangement (four switches), and NOT for triple-track universal crossovers (eight switches).
A blown-up view of the above first photo shows a switch motor’s closeness to the signals at that end.
Since NO older signal bridge or bridges were erected at CP LUGO, rather only NEW ones with the conversion of target signals to the color light type, the deduction can be made that the east slope will never see triple-tracking! Or, if it is, it will likely be a long time away.
However, just WEST of CP LUGO is a situation that could fool one. From the same basic spot that the above photos were taken from is the following telephoto of the line as it winds westward up the east slope. (See the two-tracks just below center, and slightly left.)
Above, to the left of the left track was where the Lugo siding was in Automatic Block Signal days of “double-track” before the CTC installation circa 1972. In theory, that old siding land could be used for a third-track. The tracks in CP MARTINEZ could be rearranged slightly or the CP eliminated altogether and there would thus be three-tracks between CP SUMMIT and CP LUGO. But, the shortness of the CP LUGO and the “V” switch arrangement argues against that.
Continued in Part III
Part I (of I-III)
This thread was started on Saturday, August 18, 2007, a little over three quarters of a decade ago. Then, in November 2008 the triple-tracking that inspired this thread was finished. There has been some speculation from time to time since then that triple-tracking would continue eastward from its present end at CP MARTINEZ someday, and the east slope would finally see three-tracks also. But, a triple-tracking sign has subtly been with us for some time, and that sign says the east slope likely will never see any three-tracking!
Over the last decade or so it has been observed that old, signal bridges (“bridges,” not cantilever structures) have strangely been erected …
… where otherwise one would expect the new standard, cantilever structures, to be erected.
So, AS A RULE OF THUMB, erected NEW cantilever structures (as in the photo just above) seem to be permanent, and the erection of older signal bridges (top photo) are erected where things may change in the future. And that projected change could be ten, twenty or more years in the future.
Continued in Part II
The Two Parts of Cajon …
… Blvd. Now Connected
Part “D” (of A-D)
A More Detailed Look
A BNSF westbound comes by, and passes what has long been known to be a nudist group’s living grounds, and probably (“probably”) still is.
K.P. has passed this area for 60 years, and has never seen anybody on the other side of the tracks, let alone without garments! About 35-36 years ago, when I was dating my then future wife (we are approaching our 35th anniversary!), we walked the AT&SF two-tracks from Swarthout Road to Devore Road, it seems like seven miles. In those days train crews smilef and waved, and didn’t mind if you safely walked along the tracks. A Southern Pacific westbound (now UP northbound) passed with the whole crew on the front brakeman’s side looking at the colony. Three of us, my then future wife, a railfan friend, and I watched the crew spectacle, but we saw nothing juicy!
An eastbound BNSF passes. In that 1980 era we walked in, BNSF CP KEENBROOK was nonexistent, neither the connection from the SP. In was only with the SPSF effort, I think in 1986, that the connecting track was put in between the SP and AT&SF for the failed SPSF merger effort, but never removed. Then UP and SP merged and it found a purpose. And, of course, 2006 saw triple-tracking from Verdemont to Keenbrook, and 2008 the entire section from Keenbrook to Summit was triple-tracked.
An eastbound passes Keenbrook.
You’ve probably been noting all the boulders. They have been used in years past to stabilize the ‘river’ during severe rainstorms. Even with such riprap the tracks have been known to get completely washed out. NO super severe storms have fallen on the now triple-track line. California has been in a severe drought for years now. How will the triple-track line fare if it rained for a month? In February 1969 it did rain for nearly a month. Rivers were swollen. It is hard to visualize such a time in a drought, but historically a few times per century such storms visit Cajon Pass. Will the triple-tracking of the past decade or so survive the next prolonged deluge?
So, some fresh views are now available of the triple-track line in the Devore-Keenbrook area, and of a cool new road. But, any that visit by all means be careful about crossing Cajon Blvd. The speed limit is 55 M.P.H., but signs warn to take the curves at 45 M.P.H. Curves and speedy vehicles don’t exactly mesh well with pedestrians with a camera crossing a curved route.
Visitors may want to stay on the north side of Cajon Blvd. Any that want to try the south side (by crossingthe street) it is recommended they give themselves a clear view of approaching cars of at least 1000 feet. Stay safe, stay alive, and enjoy the upper and lower Cajon Blvd. being connected again after nearly 50 years of being separated.
Part “C” (of A-D)
Another view looking back and that now one side of the roadway walling still present:
As of photo time (above views), there were no ‘No Parking’ signs present. While a car could be parked next to the walling, it seems inadvisable to do so. K.P. didn’t. And, a passenger could not open their door.
In the vicinity of the above last photo, a view looking towards further up the hill, with the freeway new walling on the right.
A wash like area is by the new road, but the walling goes up the hill a ways more than needed for a mere wash!
Continued in Part D
Part “B” (of A-D)
Again, a closer look from the southeast side looking northwest:
From the west side another look back towards Devore. Note the cement barricade walling on each side of the roadway.
Looking ‘northbound’ the right walling ends, but the left walling continues for maybe (“maybe”) a half a mile to a mile up the pass.
Part “A” (of A-D)
A Quick Overview
An overview, from the southeast side (looking uphill) to the northwest side (looking downhill):
The freeway that goes over Cajon Blvd. and both the BNSF Transcon and UP Palmdale is Interstate 15.
Some of upper Cajon Blvd. has deteriorated quite a bit. Is there any work being done on the road other than the new connection?
A Spectacular Semi-Open New Road!
The lower and upper parts of Cajon Blvd. HAVE been connected and are a through route now after nearly 50 years of being separated. However, it is closed weekdays for further construction between 5 A.M. and 4 P.M. Saturday and Sunday the new road is completely open.
Passing over the new road it can best be described as rather spectacular, especially when going under the I-15 Freeway bridging.
It is hoped to be able to get back there in the next few days for photos to share with the forum, so you can marvel too at the now through road. Hopefully, a BNSF train will come along then and get in a camera view.
The Upper and Lower Cajon Blvd. …
… Sections Have Been Striped!
It looks like the opening of the Cajon Blvd. upper and lower sections as a through road is imminent, as it has been striped!
The east side by Devore:
Cajon Blvd. going under the I-15 Freeway (middle left) on the ‘upper’ side:
The old northbound I-15 lanes (far left) are open again as a truck bypass and auto overflow route. The new northbound I-15 auto lanes are on the far right.
The northern end of the new Cajon Blvd. by Kenwood Ave.:
It is hoped those familiar with this area are encouraged by these developments.
----------
K.P. received a rare and unexpected SUNDAY assignment, and had no time to pack the good camera; hence, the above photos were taken with his old Sony camera that is kept in the car just in case.
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