Rails v. Fans (and the internet)

[zugmann]

So I was thinking about this topic today.  As we saw in the 2000 page + waving thread, there seems to be some friction between some railroad workers and the railfans.  It seems strange - until you add the internet into the mix. 

I guess before computers you either had to personally know a rail employee – or be in close friends who knew one to get the “inside scoop”.  Now with the internet – any railfan can communicate with the worker.  That is good and it seems bad.  Some railfans are not the very socially active – and spend most free time trackside.  So in the past they probably never really got to know a RRer or the life.  Not anymore. Now he can jump into one of the big 3 forums and speak with people who have that golden job.  Unfortunately, just like anything else, the job seems glamorous when seeing it from afar.  Having a worker inject some reality (and some fabrications) make the job seem less desirable than job of the guy in the chicken suit outside the new carwash.   This presents a problem.  You get the railfans complaining how the worker should get a new job, and the worker telling the fans to get a life.

I will admit - I am both, and one of the few.  I am a railfan and employee.  Do I enjoy my job?  It isn’t bad for the money and work involved.  Is it what I’d imagine it to be?  Nope. But when you start spending hours in the cab – your view really changes towards railfan message boards and thus railfans - even for a fan like me.  You have people who absolutely love that old power – when to me it means a day in a hot, stuffy, non-AC cab.  I’ve seen engines that most railfans call “junk” single-handedly pull a long train up a good grade after the beloved trailing older engine called it quits.  I’ve seen threads where people complain that the cops were called after they were videotaping some train at 4 in the morning near a yard.  Well, yeah – maybe you were doing nothing wrong – but it still seems suspicious to most people, and it is our job to report strange activity.  

I was on another site where someone was 100% convinced the RR police were tracking down all railfans to put them in some super-secret-handy-dandy database; and that cops had no right to even question someone out at 4 am videotaping trains for Youtube.  When I tried to educate them that our little ol’ police force is overworked and do not have the time to track down every railfan, and even if they did, he is already in hundreds of databases, he takes great insult.  Add to the mix a power-hungry moderator that is also a railfan (but one of those “I’m too cool to be a railfan” railfan), and I get the proverbial time-out.  So much for exchanging different view points and information I guess.   But I am now getting off-topic, sorry.

It is not that we do not like railfans.   Heck – I enjoy my little fan clubs by the tracks.  Even if they just like my power… oh well.  I know there’s still railfans out there that like the industry as a whole, and that is something.  I think it is just a vocal minority that really doesn’t like RR employees for some reason.  Maybe because we achieved something they can’t?  Most will say they never want our life – but you know they would kill for a chance to ride the cabs of a few engines – something we get paid to do.   So it may be some jealousy.  Or maybe it is because we trivialize something they love.  We also can be a sarcastic bunch.  That can lead to trouble in a lot of the more “railfanish” forums.

 

Of course some of the blame lies on our side of the pond.  Some of us railfan-employees think we have outgrown our childish railfan ways… even if we never will.  I mean, if we aren’t railfans – why are we here?  There’s also a general attitude against railfans out there.  It sure can seem strange to see people taking your photo all the time – but once again, they only like our big equipment .

We have 2 groups of people – fans that make RRs their life, and employees that have RRs forced on their lives (even though they chose it).   I know I am jealous of the railfans that can travel, their sense of normalcy…items I now lack since joining the ranks.  And they may be jealous of our life along the rails, riding those iron horses.  Or they just want to stand back and photograph the whole thing, not caring who we are. That used to be a lot easier before the internet.  Now their perfect scene can be ruined with a dose of reality with the simple click of the "reply" button. (I’d knew I’d get back to the point!)  

Ok… I’ve rambled long enough.  Any thoughts?

 

[Anonymous]

Excellent post, zugmann. 

[TimChgo9]

Excellent post Zugmann. 

I tried, and after 3 edits, still couldn't come up with a decent reply.  You hit the nail right on the head. 

Sometimes, some people don't like the little world they have being interrupted by "reality". It was interesting, as a paid-on-call firefighter, when we would get new members, they really didn't think we got up in the middle of the night to respond to a call. Some people just have cherished little notions about how certain things work, and don't want that little notion tread upon.

[Steam Is King]

Zugman, you are right. did you ever consider some rail fans live intheir own little world like Tim said ? They talkbig around their friends and when they come here and are facing real railroaders it makes them feel very unimportant so they strike out and scoff at the railroad men. they are know it alls who know nothing

[Anonymous]

That was one outstanding post!

Appreciate your thoughts very much!!!!!!!! 

 

[ValleyX]

Zugmann, excellent post, sometimes I find it almost incredible when Ed Blysard posts one of his well written, lucid responses, and the railfans accuse him of an arrogant or stupid post.  That's one example, I know there's lots of knowledgeable railfans but there's always some who show their lack of willingness to learn.  No wish to offend anyone but sometimes you see it various forums.  Fortunately, Bergie keeps things in check around here.

[TimChgo9]

We do love Ed Blysard's posts. 

Especially those of us who want to know more about the job, and what it entails.  For me, I am interested not only in photographing the equipment, but ever since I was a kid , I was always fascinated by where the tracks went...  You know, when the train passes by, it is just a small segment of the journey, and I used to watch the train until it disappeared over the hill, around the bend, whatever, always wondering; "Where does it go from here??"  I love the operation side of it, I like to learn about the economics of moving freight, and how it's done.  I come to this forum because I wish to understand more of how rails shape the nation.  I desire to understand interchanges, trackage rights, and run through power.  Fortunately there are people around here, like Ed who share the knowledge.

Tip: Google Earth is great for figuring out where everyone's tracks go....I love it.)

 

[CopCarSS]

Nice post, Zug. It really is interesting to see how the dynamics of railfan/railroader interaction change becuase of the internet. Again, thanks for your thoughts, and taking the time to post them.

[joemcspadden]

As a railfan, I would like to add one more point to the excellent ones
made by Zugmann. We railfans must not make the mistake of for-
getting the importance of 9/11. That event changed everything. A
lot of rules for etiquette and behaviour went out the window with
that event.

We are basically all muddling along and re-writing the rulebooks as
we go along, and everyone is doing the best they can. It would
behoove us as railfans to show a little understanding toward both
rail employees and law enforcement people in a post-9/11 world.

It's just very important to avoid intrusive or disruptive or obnoxious
behaviour. These people all have jobs to do that our nation depends
on. We are lucky enough to live in a society where we have the
leisure time and the resources to pursue the wonderful hobby of
railfanning. But we must remember that we are just watching,
learning, and enjoying. We're not the ones doing the work. We
need to make sure we stay out of the way.

I know, that to 95% of the railfans in this group, I am preaching
to the choir. Railfans as a group are much better behaved--even
on the internet--than sports fans are, for instance. But it doesn't
hurt any of us to reflect on these issues once in a while.

Joe McSpadden
Wabash, Indiana

[jockellis]

How's the line in the "Casey Jones" song go? Headaches and heartaches and all kinds of pain are all part of the railroad game... I guess some people figure it isn't real railroading unless the railroaders are miserable. And if an engine was good enough for a crew in 1952, it should be good enough for a crew today. Many years ago I rode in a car with the now outlawed Smitty Pipes. I felt the same when I sat in the cab of the Louisville & Wadley's ex-Central of Georgia SW1 a couple of years ago as the owner charged up his new 64-volt battery. I couldn't imagine staying in all that noise up to 16 hours a day back in "The Day."

[MP173]

This is an excellent conversation by all, particularly Zugmann.  You have outlined many of the issues of our hobby in a very analytical, yet personal manner.  Thanks!

There have been a couple of times in my life that I have taken a "timeout" from this hobby.  The longest was from about 1979 thru around 1990.  I can trace that to being on the second to last running of Southern Railway's Southern Crescent.  My buddy  and I rode it and by the time we were back home we were sick of the hobby and the attitudes of many (including ourselves). 

There is a tendancy in our hobby (and many others) to push past the enjoyment of watching a train to where we must know as much about the train as possible (I plead guilty to that count myself).  I am not simply satisfied with watching the train pass by, but am obsessed with the "need to know ___________(fill in the blank)."   Whether it is types of locomotives, signal systems, tonnage, length, speed, schedule and deviation from schedule, revenue per train, et al...there is a need to know.

I will let you in on a little secret.  If you think this hobby is information overload, look around at other hobbies.  Try astronomy...there are millions of objects out there to observe, catalog, photograph and sketch.  Go spend some time discussing passive vs managed investing over on the Vanguard Diehards forum.  Not only do we get passionate in our discussions, but we have the academic studies and statistics to backup our views!  Heaven help the poor guy who buys a couple hundred shares of a stock! 

Every hobby seems to have the passionate, even obsessive participants.  As Zugmann has pointed out, the internet has shorted the communication function to it almost being instantly applied.  Useful, but perhaps overkill.

Where am I going with this?  Dont know, but it might be time to scale back my obsession and simply enjoy the passing of a train while counting the cars of course.  My railfan developing moment was that...my mother taking me outside to watch the daily locals pass thru my town.

ed

[Midnight Railroader]

Zugmann, I think you hit the head right on the nail. (Strike that. Reverse it.)

The internet lends itself to a lot of things, but capturing people's nuances and intent aren't among them.

Worse, because it involves typing, using a message board frequently means making short posts that don't adequately express what someone would say if they were speaking. That, and the anonymity, leads to lots of posts that create friction.

Most of us would get along in real life, even though we bicker here.

So thanks for making an effort to clear up how that's happening. You are right.

[elprr]

Thanks for starting this.  I am approaching my one year anniversary of being a die-hard railfain (I like to call it “training”).  I really enjoy the hobby, but here in El Paso it seems like I am the only one out here.  When I started posting photos on the web site that I use, there were only about 18 covering El Paso. Now, I just went over 5200.  This forum gives me the associations—not the best kind, but it reminds me that I am not the only crazy one out there. 

I know what you are saying about the employees vs fans.  I have the fortune of being in Homeland Security, so when I get that line when I am trackside, I just let them know that I am Homeland Security (Immigration and Customs Enforcement – Intelligence Analyst) and that really throws them.  The UPRR Police look at me with mixed emotions—some see me as an asset and others see me as a threat.  UP management here is much the same way.  I got a call (after being turned in and visited by a couple of supervisors) to see if they could use some of my photos to go up on their walls.  After the initial discussions and the delivery of some 8x10s, I haven’t heard from them.  I guess they got the “cease and desist” order from their higher ups.  It would have been nice to have that as an outlet for display rather than just the internet.  That is another aspect that could be pursued--use our pictures in their corporate life.  We are going to be out there anyway, so why not use our photos.

I get to travel some to help out in enforcement efforts nation-wide and it gives me opportunities to see other rail areas—Saginaw interlocker, Amarillo, Tucson, Virginia, and tomorrow I am going to Vermont for 90 days.  And it really gives me an appreciation for the impact that rail service, mostly freight rail service, has on the country.

So keep the discussions going, and I’ll keep learning.  Thanks.

Ernie Leggett

El Paso, TX

(Mostly UP, but some BNSF for good measure)

[Anonymous]

This is simply not true. Trespassing on RR property was just as illegal before 9/11 as it is today.  The attempts by some in government notwithstanding, the right to photograph a train or anything else from public property is guaranteed by the Constitution.

Dave 

As a railfan, I would like to add one more point to the excellent ones
made by Zugmann. We railfans must not make the mistake of for-
getting the importance of 9/11. That event changed everything. A
lot of rules for etiquette and behaviour went out the window with
that event.

Joe McSpadden
Wabash, Indiana

[joemcspadden]

I never said, nor meant to imply, that railfans no longer have a
right to photograph trains from public property. What I said was
that after 9/11, the stakes went up--everyone became much more
aware of the bad things that could happen. Law enforcement
officials and rail employees have been exhorted to exercise
greater diligence and to keep a close watch on what's going on
around them.

All I said was that it never hurts when railfans show some empathy,
understanding, and consideration. One of the really unfortunate
aftereffects of 9/11 is that the world is just not as informal and
friendly a place as it was before. That's the reality, and we'll all
just have to keep dealing with it the best we can. We're all on the
same side here.

[SFbrkmn]

Ditto on the outstanding post and replies as well. In my opinion, the term railfan can be confusing. Most link it to going out to trackside and watching/photographing trains.

Thats cool, nothing wrong w/that. I did that myslf until obtaining rr employment in 1998 ,but no longer is that my interest. Railfanning though can go into deeper detail, like being a staff member at a museum, reading rr books, writing on rr subjects, doing research, belonging to a NRHS  group and even sitting down at a computer looking at websites or surfing a forum or model railroading.These are all railfan activities. Me, I really don't like the term railfan. Since railroading is now my job, I have no interest in modern day railroading but I retain a strong passion of the history & tradition of the industry and love reading rr history books, writing projects and doing research. That is my so called railfan activities. I consider myself a rail historian buff  instead.

[tree68]

This is simply not true. Trespassing on RR property was just as illegal before 9/11 as it is today.  The attempts by some in government notwithstanding, the right to photograph a train or anything else from public property is guaranteed by the Constitution.

Dave 

As a railfan, I would like to add one more point to the excellent ones made by Zugmann. We railfans must not make the mistake of forgetting the importance of 9/11. That event changed everything. A lot of rules for etiquette and behaviour went out the window with that event.

Joe McSpadden
Wabash, Indiana

Dave - with all due respects, Joe also hit the nail on the head.  What was considered, before 9/11, as just a hobby with some indiosycratic adherents (nuts taking pictures of trains) is now a "potential security threat."  Trespassing is still trespassing (although with higher levels of security you are more likely to be challenged, instead of ignored or even openly welcomed), but standing in a publicly accessable area, taking pictures of trains, has gone from curious activity to threat.

As a volunteer on a tourist railroad, I'm probably in dozens of vacation photo albums - it's part of the job.  I may be hot, tired, frustrated, and sore, but I've always got time for one more picture with Junior (who is almost as excited as mom and dad), next to the train. 

On the other hand, if you want a picture of me at work, you may well have some permissions to get.  Just a little change in perspective...

[CNW 6000]

My :

Somewhere inbetween both sides is what's called compromise.  I think both can be civil by considering circumstances the other has to face and chose to face. 

What's called for IMHO is common sense all around.  Personally I thoroughly enjoy watching whatever train from whatever company pass.  Yet I also do keep in mind that there's human beings crewing that fantastic train, and they have good and bad days as well as good and bad aspects of the job.  I respect heartily the RR crew and would honestly like to work for a RR someday, if nothing else, to say that I gave it a shot. 

In some ways this topic reminds me of going on a vacation or trip somewhere.  You go to a place "X" because it may be out of your normal routine and/or you can get some intrinsic value from going there.  You visit shops/local establishments/etc in pursuing that value.  If someone who works there gives some kind of bad vibe or whatever off to you most would tend (I think, anyway) to feel that something must be wrong with that person because of how they're behaving to someone who's clearly enjoying themselves.

I guess my 'take home message' is that we can all get along if we at least consider the other person before making judgement on them.

[zugmann]

We have good days???? When????  LOL..

I do thank you guys for all the comments. I did some more thinking today as I was riding home from the away terminal.  This hobby is like all the big machine hobbies.  What I mean is that some hobbies allow you to take part in them to a great degree.  Gardeners can plant gardens.  Kite flyers can go buy those kites (even if they need a second mortgage!), even car enthusiasts can go buy themselves a junker (err...pre-restoration) and stash it in the garage, much to the chagrin of their wife.  But fans of freight trains are at a disadvantage.  You can't just go hop up and take a ride - to actually take part in it.  If you fan scenic lines, well you just need to buy a ticket.  But if you like the big class-1, dash-9, double stack action - you pretty much are stuck on the sidelines unless you lose your mind and get hired.  

This also applies to fans of barges, aircraft, giant bulldozers, street sweepers.... those are mostly hands-off hobbies.  About the only thing you can actually have is information and photos. Maybe that's why this hobby is so different and perceived strange.  We yearn for something we can’t easily have.

Just another late night rambling thought.  

 

 

[cordon]

"You can't just go hop up and take a ride..." 

So now you know why my all-time favorite movie is "Picnic."

 

[TimChgo9]

We have good days???? When????  LOL..

I do thank you guys for all the comments. I did some more thinking today as I was riding home from the away terminal.  This hobby is like all the big machine hobbies.  What I mean is that some hobbies allow you to take part in them to a great degree.  Gardeners can plant gardens.  Kite flyers can go buy those kites (even if they need a second mortgage!), even car enthusiasts can go buy themselves a junker (err...pre-restoration) and stash it in the garage, much to the chagrin of their wife.  But fans of freight trains are at a disadvantage.  You can't just go hop up and take a ride - to actually take part in it.  If you fan scenic lines, well you just need to buy a ticket.  But if you like the big class-1, dash-9, double stack action - you pretty much are stuck on the sidelines unless you lose your mind and get hired.  

This also applies to fans of barges, aircraft, giant bulldozers, street sweepers.... those are mostly hands-off hobbies.  About the only thing you can actually have is information and photos. Maybe that's why this hobby is so different and perceived strange.  We yearn for something we can’t easily have.

Just another late night rambling thought.  

 

 

You are probably right about that one too.  This is especially true of those of us who are WWII historians, and have a passion for the aircraft (Yes, I caught that bug when I was about 10, 31 years, 200 model tanks and airplanes (all gone now) 3 war games, and 70 books later, I am still not over it. )  With that hobby, the most I can do is A: Watch the History Channel, or B: Go up to Oshkosh every year, and hope I can catch a glimpse of them on the flightline or in the air.(haven't been there since 1987)  I have been to the Air Force Museum in Dayton, OH, and to the new U-505 exhibit at the Museum of Science and Industry here in Chicago.  Sure, we can play a flight simulator, and imagine, but it doesn't even come close.  The same would hold true for MS Train Simulator, or Auran Trainz...  but, an F4U Corsair, ME-109, P-40,  or a Macchi C.202 Folgore is not something easily acquired for display in the backyard.....(To say nothing of a Sherman, or a Pzkfw Mk IV or  Mk V.....)

[Erie Lackawanna]

Zugmann,

Thanks for starting this excellent thread.  I don't really have much to add, except that I agree with the two terrific observations --

 1) Part of the problem is the internet... there is no way to hear inflection... so if we read something we don't like, we take it in the worst possible way, when it may not have been meant that way.

2) I've been railfaning for more than 30 years and 95% of the railfans I've seen obey the rules, are polite to rails, and don't do stupid things.  The problem is that other 5% makes a lot of noise and ruins stuff for the rest of us.

 Charles

[CNW 6000]

Zugmann,

Thanks for starting this excellent thread.  I don't really have much to add, except that I agree with the two terrific observations --

 1) Part of the problem is the internet... there is no way to hear inflection... so if we read something we don't like, we take it in the worst possible way, when it may not have been meant that way.

2) I've been railfaning for more than 30 years and 95% of the railfans I've seen obey the rules, are polite to rails, and don't do stupid things.  The problem is that other 5% makes a lot of noise and ruins stuff for the rest of us.

 Charles

except for the 30 year part!

[Anonymous]

 1) Part of the problem is the internet... there is no way to hear inflection... so if we read something we don't like, we take it in the worst possible way, when it may not have been meant that way.

 Agree 100%.  I'm sure if many people in forums who have had "heated" discussions actually met face to face to discuss the same topics, there would be a greater understanding of thoughts and ideas and a LOT less anger and distaste. 

[route_rock]

   You would be surprised how many rails are " fans" or historians. I run a steam engine in Frreport Il, two engineers I know and one conductor works in Mt Pleasant for the railroad there.

    Another conductor collects old CB&Q items, Another models BN stuff, and look in last GMR we have a BNSF employee who has a good looking model railroad ( the one of the Clinchfield).

   That being said we have some that are quite rude about things.But thats both sides of any issue.

   Do people in the industry know about my hobbies? Only those I have mentioned.Because I like my 12 hours in the cab to be peaceful. Not me smacking someone with a track warrant book all the way to the terminal lol.

[TimChgo9]

 1) Part of the problem is the internet... there is no way to hear inflection... so if we read something we don't like, we take it in the worst possible way, when it may not have been meant that way.

 Agree 100%.  I'm sure if many people in forums who have had "heated" discussions actually met face to face to discuss the same topics, there would be a greater understanding of thoughts and ideas and a LOT less anger and distaste. 

Conveying your meaning, is more difficult then the words on the internet.  The use of "emoticons" or "smileys" helps to some extent, but trying to communicate via email or forum can be difficult.  In person, everyone (well, most everyone) gets my sense of humor, because you can tell by my voice, my inflection, and even facial expression, and body language that I am making a joke, being sarcastic, or taking a stab at humor... But, put the same words here on the forum, or any forum, it will come off as offensive, perhaps.  And that's not to impugn anyone here, it's the way it is. So, when typing in a forum thread, I restrain my humor, only because it won't come across the same way here as it would in person, and to that end, it could be misinterpreted. 

On the other hand, however, I try to recognize that what someone is saying is not intended to be offensive, and therefore, give some leeway. To minimize the conflict, it is incumbent on all of us to step back when we read something that hits us the wrong way, take a deep breath, and then decide if we are really offended, instead of "knee-jerk" writing something that we may later regret. 

Of course, then there are those out there in cyber-world who are bound and determined to be offended, regardless of the intent of the writer.

[steinjr]

Dave - with all due respects, Joe also hit the nail on the head.  What was considered, before 9/11, as just a hobby with some indiosycratic adherents (nuts taking pictures of trains) is now a "potential security threat."  Trespassing is still trespassing (although with higher levels of security you are more likely to be challenged, instead of ignored or even openly welcomed), but standing in a publicly accessable area, taking pictures of trains, has gone from curious activity to threat.

 Just curious - is there any evidence whatsoever that chasing people who take pictures of trains actually has made the world a safer places ? Is any terrorist action actually known to have been foiled by people checking out someone who took pictures of trains ?

 Stein

 

[Bergie]

Nicely done, Zugmann.

Two other things that I'd like to interject...

First, as mentioned above, communication via written word has its downfalls. If you and I were face to face right now I could say something that would come off as a joke or lighthearted. The tone of my voice or my body language would help convey my smart-aleck remark. HOWEVER, in print, in especially in a forum, people can't tell when you're just trying to be witty. Keep that in mind the next time you try to be witty. People can easily misread your true intention.

Second, I think we also need to keep in mind that in every single walk of life there are brilliant people (both in terms of their mind and their personality) and less than brilliant people. Just because you know one less than brilliant doctor wouldn't mean you'd right off all doctors as morons, right? Likewise, just because your doctor is brilliant doesn't mean all doctors are brilliant. Try to keep that in mind when characterizing people around here, and in all walks of life. Be them railroaders or railfans, they're not all brilliant, and they're not all morons.

Bergie

[tree68]

Dave - with all due respects, Joe also hit the nail on the head.  What was considered, before 9/11, as just a hobby with some indiosycratic adherents (nuts taking pictures of trains) is now a "potential security threat."  Trespassing is still trespassing (although with higher levels of security you are more likely to be challenged, instead of ignored or even openly welcomed), but standing in a publicly accessable area, taking pictures of trains, has gone from curious activity to threat.

 Just curious - is there any evidence whatsoever that chasing people who take pictures of trains actually has made the world a safer places ? Is any terrorist action actually known to have been foiled by people checking out someone who took pictures of trains ?

 Stein

The intelligence community is a funny bunch - you'd think that someone would trumpet a success, as you suggest.  But if doing so would tip their hand on further such successes, they're going to play it pretty close to the vest.

That said, anything is possible.  It's also possible that a terrorist plot has been foiled by the presence of camera-toting railfans...

[chad thomas]

Well Larry, I did have a terrorist plot to smash a penny at a secret and unnamed location but I was thwarted by a thred in this very forum called "smashing pennys" because of the hostile reaction to such activity..........Does that count?