Railroad Bridge Disasters

[CShaveRR]

And having endured the traffic across the dam fairly recently, I'm sure that the new bridge will be appreciated by some people who just don't give a , and the view might be good for some who do!

[Modelcar]

....JSGreen:

Looks like you have succeeded in bringing up the cams I'm talking about....I'll have to try it again.

Not sure what you mean...not having anything to do with Hoover Dam....This bridge will take all the thru traffic off Hoover dam {north and south rt. 93}, and take it across this new bridge.  It is located just south of the head of the dam and currently rt. 93 goes over the concrete portion of the dam.

[rjemery]

(hmmmm....has there ever been a collapse of a toll bridge?)

Yes.  Two come to mind immediately:

1) Mianus River Bridge in Greenwich, CT, June, 1983, part of the I-95 Connecticut Turnpike (toll road), and 2) Schoharie Creek Thruway Bridge, April, 1977, part of the I-88 NY Thruway (toll road).

There were other toll road or bridge collapses as well, stemming from barge collisions, earthquakes or causes unrelated to the bridge structure itself.

The collapse of the Schoharie Creek bridge, caused by the piers being undermined by hydraulic pressure, prompted the NY Thruway to close a number of other I-88 bridges with potentially similar problems.  Six days later and five miles away, the Mill Point Bridge also collapsed, but there was no loss of life because traffic over the bridge had been halted.

 

[JSGreen]

visited that web site, didnt see anything to do with hoover dam at all...pretty bogus.  got a link to where the cameras were? 

(edit)

Ah, there it is.... 

[Modelcar]

....With the subject of bridges being out front now and discussed here....I have been trying to keep up watching the construction of the massive size arch bridge that will span the Colorado river and canyon just down stream from Hoover Dam.  {Az - Nev.}.

Roughly 2000' long and 900' above the water level.

They have had video cams up and running on a website for several years now that one can watch it being built...But for several months now I can't bring it up...{the live web cams}.  I haven't tried now for perhaps the last 2 weeks.  But that will be the ultimate masonry arch bridge if it is successful in being put in place.  A really wild, ultimate design that makes me wonder how they will get that arch in place.

Anyway, that design must be correct.....A lot at stake here.

Has anyone else been trying to watch it being built...?

Look under hooverdambypass.com

By the way, they have had a major equipment failure back last Fall with their Horizonal Crane....Excessive winds blew down the support towers that hold the cables that were stretched across the canyon.  Collapsed the whole crane structure setting back the project months.

[rjemery]

Seems to me that an over-engineered bridge is a liability to few, while an under-engineered bridge is a libility to all.

No truer words were ever written.  Most highway bridges then and now, as we have learned from the media attention, were built without redundancy, meaning that if one critical part fails, the entire bridge fails.  Redundancy, however that is implemented within a design, was eliminated as a cost-saving measure.

Already in Minnesota we see finger-pointing and back-pedaling.  Maintenance and inspections were shaved and shaved until disaster struck.  As with all accidents, it is rarely a single human failure.  Rather, it was a number of humans and decisions that finally came together catastrophically.

Regardless of how frequently the I-35W bridge was being inspected, somebody more than once failed to get at a critical component that was slowly failing day-by-day.  Visual inspections are of and by themselves inadequate.  To be certain, high spans or spans over water make it difficult to get at all parts of both the superstructure and substructure.

Clearly in this case, prolonged inadequate inspection has got to be one of the top if not the top cause of the failure.  I would not want to be in the shoes of whatever inspector last signed off on the I-35W bridge.

[rjemery]

Many of the major Railroad improvements undertaken in the 1930s were underwritten by the Federal Government. The most famous of these was the major electrification of the PRR connecting the wires around Philadelphia with New York, Washington, and Harrisburg.  FDR justified funding these projects as "make work" to try to jump start the economy. The railroad projects would get construction, manufacturing, and it was hoped mining back to work completing the projects.

Can you cite a source for that?

My knowledge of the PRR's electrification project was that it was entirely borne by the railroad itself.  I would have to check dates, but the tunneling under the Hudson River and the building of Penn Station in NYC were likewise paid for by the PRR.  In fact, many (but not all) of the nation's utilities and railroads were the only profitable enterprises during the Great Depression.

[rjemery]

I sincerly doubt that 119,000 trains or railcars pass over I-376 in a day.  I would say these bridges are highway bridges over railroad tracks.

Yes, the I-376 bridge is a highway overpass, and from the looks of it, if it is on a "worst" list, I would have trepidation driving on it.  See satellite view.

 

[yippinyahoo]

OK so this isn't in the league of other collapses mentioned, but it broke my heart when the Kinzua Viaduct in PA collapsed thanks to the blunt force of a tornado some years ago.  I recall hiking across and under this span, being awed by its sheer remoteness & the soaring terrain that surounds it 

[joe-daddy]

Jonathan,

Reaching back over 70 years when the  country was locked in a depression is a streach for me.  They built WPA bridges on auto and trucking roads all over the country at the same time. 

SO, who really pays the majority of the costs of bridge maintenance for the railroads, I'm certain it is their customers.  Who pays the majority of the costs for bridge maintenance for the trucking  industry, the tax payers. 

Since 1955, is my statement not completely true?

Amtrak, the governmental railroad excepted.  

Thanks,

Joe 

 

[JonathanS]

J. Edgar,

Many of the major Railroad improvements undertaken in the 1930s were underwritten by the Federal Government. The most famous of these was the major electrification of the PRR connecting the wires around Philadelphia with New York, Washington, and Harrisburg.  FDR justified funding these projects as "make work" to try to jump start the economy. The railroad projects would get construction, manufacturing, and it was hoped mining back to work completing the projects.

[joe-daddy]

And, lets not forget the profit motive...

Profit = accountability to the owners, whether they be stock holders or  taxpayers.  Perhaps we can agree that our elected officials are far less willing to be held accountable than stock holders demand of their managers.

Seems to me that an over-engineered bridge is a  liability to few, while an under-engineered bridge is a libility to all.

My

 

 

[JSGreen]

And, lets not forget the profit motive...

Railroads depend on bridges standing to make money.  So overengineering is repaid by piece of mind, knowing the bridge will be standing so you can make money.  Kinda like an investment...

 There is no direct correlation to highway bridges...argue all you want that the trucks pay for the roads, with all the taxes they pay, but the long and short of it is there is no fianical advantage to the highway bridge builder for it to stay up...the guy who is building the bridge is not making money when the trafic continues to flow...(hmmmm....has there ever been a collapse of a toll bridge?)

Another factor is the railroad loads are more predictable...you know a span of X feet will carry a specific number of cars, and what the maximum loading of those cars are.  when car loads go up, the (civil) engineers know which bridges need reinforcement, or a speed restriction, or both.  Not to mention there are far fewer railroad bridges than highway bridges...

 The bridge in Minnesota was designed well before trucks started grossing at 80,000 lbs...one hs to wonder how much that figures into the collapse...

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

With all due respects to the structural engineers in this forum, most older bridges, both rail and highway, were overbuilt for the loads they carried because engineering technique hadn't advanced enough at that time.  As has been mentioned elsewhere, engineering advances in bridge design were often the result of prior bridge failures and designs were beefed up as a result.  Computer analysis was still in the future so trial-and-error was the usual practice.

[Modelcar]

....My thoughts on RR bridges with their appearance compared to Interstate counterparts seems to {my eyes}, seem to have great advantage in stature, structure, and strength....

They simply seem to be built to do the job with a safety factor pretty high.  Massive beams size and cross bracing...Everything heavy in material.  Massive size dia. pins connecting parts together and many of the old ones, parts connected with rivets and double plates connecting beams together and so on....

We have two {thru-truss}, type bridges on the old Pennsylvania branch that went north to Mathews community out of Muncie here and they have been abandoned for at least 35 years and of course no maintenance and to my eyes {if the masonary supports}, stay under the center for support, it appears they will stand for a hundred years yet...

They were built for heavy steam engines back when....and look it.

[rrnut282]

I sincerly doubt that 119,000 trains or railcars pass over I-376 in a day.  I would say these bridges are highway bridges over railroad tracks.  That puts them under DOT jusrisdiction.  Most railroads build, maintain and inspect most of the bridges their tracks run on without help from the government.

[rjemery]

The NY Times today published on its website a complete list of 470 (?) bridges needing immediate inspection, to be done by individual states as directed by the US DOT.  A significant number of those bridges appear to be railroad bridges, all deemed structurally deficient.

Of the top eleven bridges deemed most vulnerable, three seem to be railroad bridges:

• I-376 CSX railroad, Frazier St., Allegheny County, PA, built in 1951; daily traffic 119,131
• I-680 Railroad, Suisun Bay, Contra Costa County, CA, 1962; 90,500
• I-90 Railroad, Hudson River, Albany County, NY, 1968; 75,196
  

See http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20070804_BRIDGES_GRAPHIC.html for a complete list and also state-by-state.

I do not know if the designated bridges are railroad bridges crossing over highways or automobile bridges crossing over railroads.  In some cases, they are clearly railroad bridges, such as the Eagle River Bridge crossing the Eagle River near Eagle, CO.

 

[J. Edgar]

Who pays for the construction and maintenance costs of railroad bridges?

Ultimately, the taxpayers. 

Who pays for the construction and maintenance costs of bridges utilized by interstate trucking, chief competitors of the railroad?

Again, the taxpayers.

 the federal government subsidized the early auto industry in this country by building the US Highway system in the 20's and 30's....similiarly state and county govs taxed to build rural roads....weve all seen the early films of a model T slopin thru the muddy ruts....better roads ment more people would want cars.......the only thing the fedgov did for RR's was some small ammount of land granting in the mid 1800's.....and regulation after regulation for 100 years

[rjemery]

Who pays for the construction and maintenance costs of railroad bridges?

Ultimately, the taxpayers. 

Who pays for the construction and maintenance costs of bridges utilized by interstate trucking, chief competitors of the railroad?

Again, the taxpayers.

Case in point.  Conrail is double-tracking its ex-Lehigh Valley line between Potter (Edison) and Bound Brook, NJ.  The project is being paid in at least in substantial part by the State of New Jersey.  Those Wal-Marts and McDonald's put up near you probably also qualified for federal funding, depending on the rural market.  Conrail and its CSX and NS owners or McDonald's or Wal-Mart are not exactly impoverished businesses.

The federal funding of Wal-Mart and McDonald's was part of a 60 Minutes segment on the practice.  The funding for the double-tracking was reported in a newspaper article (see below).

Railroads pay property taxes (I hope) and truckers pay road fees, so in the end, maybe everything balances out, but I still don't think it is fair to ask taxpayers to ante up funds for profitable corporations.

Amtrak runs its line without any grade crossings from Washington, DC, to NYC (and beyond).  In NJ at least, not one of the highway or road bridges over or under the Northeast Corridor is Amtrak's maintenance responsibility. Amtrak does have responsibilty for its bridges that cross rivers or streams, and Amtrak does maintain its own tracks, roadbed and ROW.

In NJ, just about every railroad project -- from ripping up old rails, improving crossings or signaling, or laying new track with or without electrification -- is done mostly at taxpayer expense.

 

-----

 

Edison crowd rails over plan Double trouble seen in expansion

Home News Tribune (East Brunswick, NJ)
June 27, 2003
Author: JONATHAN TAMARI STAFF WRITERSTAFF

EDISON: Residents packed the Township Council chambers last night to voice concerns over a plan to expand a train line they say already causes severe traffic, safety and noise problems around Inman Avenue and Tingley Lane.

Around 250 people, many standing around the chambers, showed up to question state Department of Transportation officials, sometimes shouting over answers they didn't like.

The crowd even booed Mayor George Spadoro, who arrived at the meeting about an hour after it began. But Spadoro turned some of the jeers to cheers by vowing to explore legal action and seek alternatives to the rail expansion.

"I don't believe (the DOT) fully understood the terrible impact these rail roads have on this area," Spadoro said.

Residents said the trains that now pass through the area block traffic on Inman Avenue and Tingley Lane, two of the area's main arteries, creating jams and preventing emergency vehicles from traveling the area quickly.

"When Tingley Lane and Inman Avenue are blocked, our side of town is completely cut off from fire and police (vehicles)," said Ruth Naley, a Mary Ellen Court resident.

Residents also said the trains seem to extend horn use early in the morning.

"Sometimes, we think the train is coming right through our living room," said Jerry Tirotta, a board member at the Westgate condominium complex off Inman Avenue.

The expansion is part of a $50 million rail-improvement plan announced in late May by Gov. James McGreevey.

Under the plan, $18 million will go toward adding a second set of tracks along the Lehigh Valley line between Inman Avenue and Bound Brook. The DOT and the rail companies - Norfolk Southern, CSX and Conrail - will share the project's cost.

DOT representatives at last night's meeting said the added line would improve efficiency through North Edison, where the Lehigh Valley line now runs on one track. The expansion would reach through Edison, South Plainfield and Piscataway.

With only one track now in use, trains sometimes have to idle as they wait for others to pass in the opposite direction, said Dennis Keck, DOT's assistant commissioner for planning and development. The second track would allow two trains to pass at once, improving efficiency and putting more freight on rails, instead of trucks, according to DOT officials.

Keck said construction plans are at least a year off, but reiterated that the DOT stood behind the project.

He estimated that 35 to 40 trains now pass through North Edison each day, but residents loudly disputed that number, saying it is actually much higher.

DOT officials said there are no "immediate" plans for adding more trains, but residents said they expect to see more freight traffic.

"If Conrail is a company for profit, and they're paying for it, they're not doing it just to have it sit there," said Deepak Ghosh, who lives near Inman Avenue.

Some residents demanded the DOT add an overpass so that cars and trains would not intersect, stopping traffic jams and eliminating the need for conductors to blow their horns. DOT said they would work with local officials to address residents' concerns.

"I think Middlesex County and the Department of Transportation are going to have to have a conversation after this meeting," Keck said.

###

 

[erikem]

While it could be termed more of a washout than bridge failure, the collapse of a bridge at Saugus, MT (just east of Miles City) in 1938 underneath a westbound Olympian resulted in 47 confirmed fatalities.

[joe-daddy]

It is not my intent to hijack this most interesting thread, but please, allow me a related and I believe relevant point. By asking two separate questions.

Who pays for the construction and maintenance costs of railroad bridges?

Who pays for the construction and maintenance costs of bridges utilized by interstate trucking, chief competitors of the railroad?

Thanks for your indulgence

 

Joe 

[Anonymous]

Was the Twin Cities' Stone Arch Bridge's problem a design flaw, or flood-related scouring that caused a pier to drop?

I mentioned this in another bridge thread, but it fits better here.  In the big flood of 1965, one of the piers (nearer to the east end) of Jim Hill's stone arch bridge sunk about two feet.  As I recall, it happened when a passenger train was passing over it.  The bridge just accommodated the sinking pier like it was made of rubber.  Telephoto shots of the double tracks made it look like a perfect roller coaster dip.  They just filled the sag in with new grout, raised the tracks to proper surface, and did not raise the sunken pier.  Today, if you sight along the sides of the bridge, you can plainly see where all the courses of masonry in the upper portion take a dip.  I believe they also lined the underside of the arches with new concrete on each side of that sunken pier.  

I always thought the incident seemed kind of strange.  If the water soured away the bearing material supporting a pier, the material would have to be clay or gravel.  I would have guessed that those piers are standing directly on limestone bedrock rather than soil.  It is also surprising that they could just continue operating the bridge with the sunken pier by merely re-surfacing the deck portion to proper grade.  Maybe they did also do work to reinforce the footing bearing as well.  It also seem a bit amazing that a masonry bridge could move that much under the weight of a train and not fall down.  I suppose the force was so even that it created an appropriate distribution of joint cracking to equally spread out the joint separation.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The problems with the Stone Arch Bridge began when one of the supports sank a few feet during the Mississippi River flood of 1965.

[CShaveRR]

Kevin, that was very much after the incident ib question, possibly even after the rails were taken up.

[Kevin C. Smith]

Was the Twin Cities' Stone Arch Bridge's problem a design flaw, or flood-related scouring that caused a pier to drop?

The latter, if I remember aright. I think there were also a couple of arches removed for a change in the river channel-don't know if that had anything to do with anything.

[blhanel]

The most recent railroad bridge disaster I can think of would have to be the bridge on the Meridian & Bigbee that collapsed under the rocket-fuel train a month or two ago.  I haven't heard the cause on that, but suspect that it was weather-related.  Not the same as a design flaw.

I seem to recall hearing about a maintenance crew that was in the middle of working on that bridge when the rocket-fuel train went through... 

[CShaveRR]

The most recent railroad bridge disaster I can think of would have to be the bridge on the Meridian & Bigbee that collapsed under the rocket-fuel train a month or two ago.  I haven't heard the cause on that, but suspect that it was weather-related.  Not the same as a design flaw.

Others I remember include the one in Mobile Bay (hit by a barge--again, not a design flaw), Newark Bay (operational problem), and assorted fires, non-related wrecks, and washouts.

Was the Twin Cities' Stone Arch Bridge's problem a design flaw, or flood-related scouring that caused a pier to drop?

[Anonymous]

Scotland's Tay Bridge disaster back in 1879 was the first major railroad bridge disaster that I know of, and in most respects is still the worst of all time.

[J. Edgar]

 in the earlydays of railroading  say from 1845 till the 1870's bridge disaters were almost common place...most bridges were of wood construction whether it was a small culvert or 200' spans.....and most of those were built cheaply/quickly during the building boom of the period.....with the advent of strong cheap easy to work with steel as well as state and Federal specs and codes and inspections and the AAR and others working toward real safety and effiencies most RR bridges now are of solid steel construction of proven truss designs.

 failures occur to be sure like the Sunset Limited few years back.....barge hits a bridge peir and boom big wreck. wash outs are a constant problem in most regions and i would guess that today like the 1800's there are some smaller lines that cant afford proper maintaince of their now 50 to 100 year old steel bridges

this bridge may seem spindly but i trust it....ive taken 12000 tons coal trains over it been stop by the dpsr out of town sittin on it....was built in 1909 if i remember right....for the Pere Marquette Rwy in the town of Grand Ledge MI

i also lived in Grand Ledge a while so i got to enjoy this bridge as a RR fan to....

im not going to start frettin over RR bridges droppin soon.....there built to a completely different set of standards

[rjemery]

With all the attention now on highway bridges, I was wondering how frequent bridge failures occurred on railroads.  I know the Clinchfield had some spectacular wrecks, some related to bridge problems.

When preservationists wanted to move decommisioned Big Boys, transport by highways were ruled out because the weight of the locomotive exceeded safe bridge loads.  Even movement over the rails was problematic, as many railroad bridges on lines leading to the destination museum were never designed for the weight of those locomotives.