Railroad Bridge Disasters

[CShaveRR]

Back to the original subject, I forgot one railroad bridge disaster that may very well have come under the scope of structural deterioration:  the one a couple of years or so ago in British Columbia that CN took a lot of heat over on this forum and others, as well as in the real world.

[JSGreen]

modelcar...the web site I ended up on had nothing specific to do with Hoover Dam, more to do with a bogus search substitution...I think the real site is a Dot ORG not Dot COM...although it may have more to do with my browser (firefox) guessing the address, if there was no actual link...it might be you typed it in, instead of cut and paste....anyway, I did find the bridge CAm...cool site!  Will be interested in following the progress of that bridge...have been over the Dam a few times, the bypass will make it lots safer now for tourists on the bridge!

[rjemery]

Here's one unusual railroad bridge collapse:

May 6, 2005: A rail bridge collapses on the Napier - Gisborne, (New Zealand) line as 2 x DC Class locomotives hauling a 60 ton crane crosses. The crane fell into the Nuhaka River. There were no injuries. The bridge supports had been weakened by marine molusc Teredo Navalis (commonly known as shipworm). The presence of this worm is consdierd sporadic rather than endemic (usually, not occurring this far south). Authorities are to investigate whether the presence of the worms is a result of climate change. It has also triggered a change of policy in bridge examinations.  From May 2005 in Rail Transport.

 

[rjemery]

Back to the original subject, I forgot one railroad bridge disaster that may very well have come under the scope of structural deterioration:  the one a couple of years or so ago in British Columbia that CN took a lot of heat over on this forum and others, as well as in the real world.

Was that accident the result of a structural problem or derailment due to the length of CN's trains? I wasn't able to locate anything about a bridge collapse, but I did find:

On August 5, 2005, a CN train had nine cars derail on a bridge over the Cheakamus River, causing 41,000 litres (9,000 Canadian gal, 11,000 US gal) of caustic soda to spill into the river. The CBC has stated that it could take the river as long as 50 years to recover from the toxic pollution. The Cheakamus River used to have a vibrant fishing tourism industry which now faces an uncertain future. CN is facing accusations from local British Columbians over the rail line's supposed lack of response to this issue, touted as the worst chemical spill in British Columbia's history.

Transport Canada has restricted CN to trains not exceeding 80 car lengths because of the multiple derailments on the former BCR line north from Squamish. CN had been allegedly running trains in excess of 150 cars on this winding and mountainous section of track.

A further derailment at Moran, twenty miles north of Lillooet, on June 30, 2006, has raised more questions about CN's safety policies. Two more derailments, days apart, near Lytton in August of 2006 have continued criticism. In the first case, 20 coal cars of a CPR train using a CN bridge derailed, dumping 12 cars of coal into the Thompson River. In the second case half a dozen grain cars spilled on a CN train.  Source: CNR article at WikiPedia.

 

[Anonymous]

The NY Times today published on its website a complete list of 470 (?) bridges needing immediate inspection, to be done by individual states as directed by the US DOT.  A significant number of those bridges appear to be railroad bridges, all deemed structurally deficient.

Of the top eleven bridges deemed most vulnerable, three seem to be railroad bridges:

• I-376 CSX railroad, Frazier St., Allegheny County, PA, built in 1951; daily traffic 119,131
• I-680 Railroad, Suisun Bay, Contra Costa County, CA, 1962; 90,500
• I-90 Railroad, Hudson River, Albany County, NY, 1968; 75,196
  

See http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20070804_BRIDGES_GRAPHIC.html for a complete list and also state-by-state.

I do not know if the designated bridges are railroad bridges crossing over highways or automobile bridges crossing over railroads.  In some cases, they are clearly railroad bridges, such as the Eagle River Bridge crossing the Eagle River near Eagle, CO.

 

 

I live in Martinez, where the south end of the Carquinez bridge is.  That bridge is badly rusting and I've not seen maintenance done on the structure itself in years.. the track & roadbed yes, but not the bridge itself.  And this also includes the left section of the bridge.  Below is a shot of the bridge in question & the auto bridges to each side of it.

http://www.msnusers.com/tripeakstots/Documents/Important%20Stuff/Carquinez-Bridge.jpg

[rjemery]

I live in Martinez, where the south end of the Carquinez bridge is.  That bridge is badly rusting and I've not seen maintenance done on the structure itself in years.. the track & roadbed yes, but not the bridge itself.  And this also includes the left section of the bridge.  Below is a shot of the bridge in question & the auto bridges to each side of it.

http://www.msnusers.com/tripeakstots/Documents/Important%20Stuff/Carquinez-Bridge.jpg

Your image wasn't accessible when I tried to view it. 

If you live in Martinez, CA, wouldn't that be at the south end of the Benicia-Martinez I-680 Bridge (aka the George Miller Jr Memorial Bridge)?  Are you referring to the Southern Pacific railroad bridge (used by Amtrak) that lies between the new and old spans of the Miller bridge?

[J. Edgar]

J. Edgar,

Many of the major Railroad improvements undertaken in the 1930s were underwritten by the Federal Government. The most famous of these was the major electrification of the PRR connecting the wires around Philadelphia with New York, Washington, and Harrisburg.  FDR justified funding these projects as "make work" to try to jump start the economy. The railroad projects would get construction, manufacturing, and it was hoped mining back to work completing the projects.

 yes but at what cost....again its the taxpayers that foot the bill.....in the case you mentioned the PRR started to loose money the same year its payments thru taxation on the bonds issued for the "Ifrastructure Improvement Act" of 1933 came due....1946... the Pennsy kept sliding downward for other reasons.....and be that as it may the Fed still spent truck loads and truck loads of good taxpayer money on the fledgling auto industry....the Pennsy wires cost less then 50 million 1938 dollars...........................how much ya think they spent buildin all them there concrete bridges over RR's now abdn and forgotten back in the 20's an 30's.......fastforward to 1950ish and dwight d signs the "Interstate Highway Act" into law.....mandating fed funds  i.e. tax dollars to build more concrete bridges over even more tracks left for the weeds.....granted the fed has always spent like that but i feel they turned their backs (and taxpayer money) on the mode of transport that built this Nation.....even conrail was a half hearted 2nd attempt to save bankrupted carriers in the NE...but back to bridges.....im still not gonna start worrying about them falling like leaves..... here in SE Mi a week doesnt go by that some hiway downtown isnt closed for "emergancy bridge repairs" or "emergancy inspection account concrete chunks falling on roadway".....weres my $1.75 a pack tax on cig. earmarked for road repair???....

[Modelcar]

 

JSGreen:

I reached the site I spoke of simply by Googling  "Hoover Dam Bypass".  And I tried the web cam today and still couldn't get to it...

Late last Winter I watched it quite often but after the horzional crane collapse I haven't been able to get the web cams up....

Have no Idea why....I thought the project might have been stopped until the "crane" redesigned and reconstructed, etc....That crane is how they deliver the bridge construction "parts" out over the canyon and until that is back up and operational, they can't do that....??

[tdmidget]

By the way Modelcar, no matter how big a font you use, there is still no such word as "masonary".

[Modelcar]

tdmidget:

.....Oops, I just started this morning and I've already been condemned.

Hope that didn't cause you too much trouble {along with the same size font I use all the time}.

[joe-daddy]

By the way Modelcar, no matter how big a font you use, there is still no such word as "masonary".

Masonary, 'a home where Masons are expected to live the celibate life.'  As this is one of the true secrets of the freemasons, you probably never heard of it, as the Masons closed their first and only one about three minutes after their first initiate was explained the meaning of being celibate, which, by the way was quite different from the stone tablet where it had been incorrectly  engraved as "practice the celebration lifestyle."  This data was obtained from the http://www.weweremasons.com/   No need to try to go to the website unless you have the special secret activeX agent.

 

Actually, I kinda like the larger font, I can read it without my Optivisor.   

 

Just a travelin man. . .

Joe Daddy 

 

 

[Anonymous]

Seems to me that an over-engineered bridge is a liability to few, while an under-engineered bridge is a libility to all.

No truer words were ever written.  Most highway bridges then and now, as we have learned from the media attention, were built without redundancy, meaning that if one critical part fails, the entire bridge fails.  Redundancy, however that is implemented within a design, was eliminated as a cost-saving measure.

Already in Minnesota we see finger-pointing and back-pedaling.  Maintenance and inspections were shaved and shaved until disaster struck.  As with all accidents, it is rarely a single human failure.  Rather, it was a number of humans and decisions that finally came together catastrophically.

Regardless of how frequently the I-35W bridge was being inspected, somebody more than once failed to get at a critical component that was slowly failing day-by-day.  Visual inspections are of and by themselves inadequate.  To be certain, high spans or spans over water make it difficult to get at all parts of both the superstructure and substructure.

Clearly in this case, prolonged inadequate inspection has got to be one of the top if not the top cause of the failure.  I would not want to be in the shoes of whatever inspector last signed off on the I-35W bridge.

I have heard some discussion about how the I35W bridge was a product of a new era in bridge building that was marked by better calculations and sophisitcated trusses resulting in less redundancy and sleeker design.  I have also heard that this era quickly passed and was replaced by designs using massive "I" beams instead of sophisticated trusses.  It seems as though this bridge has long been considered vulnerable because it was born in this particular era of bridge art.

I could not believe what I was hearing yesterday from MNDOT officials about the bridge.  They were complaining about how hard it was to inspect the bridge, citing pigeon poop as an impediment.  They said the material caused corrosion and obscurred the steel from inspection.  They also said that some welds, bolts, and plates were inside of pockets that were impossible to access for inspection.  They also complained that inspection was hampered by too many spiders living on the bridge.

It seems to me that if the bridge was impossible to inspect, they should have closed it and solved that problem instead of just letting it fall down.

  

 

[joe-daddy]

Have no Idea why....I thought the project might have been stopped until the "crane" redesigned and reconstructed, etc....That crane is how they deliver the bridge construction "parts" out over the canyon and until that is back up and operational, they can't do that....??

We visited Hoover Dam this summer and I gotta tell you that new bridge is not something I look forward to driving over.  It is going to be way up in the air.   And remember, it is being built by the low bidder.  I have not seen the actual bridge, but from web pictures, it looks like they are doing the same thing at Hoover that they did at Lake Powell dam. 

Here is a poor picture we took of the model of the bridge. (Glass/Plexiglass enclosure distortion)

 

[rjemery]

I could not believe what I was hearing yesterday from MNDOT officials about the bridge.  They were complaining about how hard it was to inspect the bridge, citing pigeon poop as an impediment.  They said the material caused corrosion and obscurred the steel from inspection.  They also said that some welds, bolts, and plates were inside of pockets that were impossible to access for inspection.  They also complained that inspection was hampered by too many spiders living on the bridge.

From that report, it would appear any inspection was superficial.  One can only wonder how many other bridge inspections were not thorough for the same reasons.  By this time, bridge designers should be mindful of bird nestings and droppings in any bridge understructure that might hamper inspection or promote corrosion of critical parts.

Several bridges including two railroad bridges (one Amtrak) over the Garden State Parkway (GSP) in New Jersey received a very thorough inspection a year or two ago.  Traffic lanes were closed, workers worked on scaffolds, the undersides were power washed, sand blasted and spray painted.  I presume if any repair or reinforcement was necessary, it was done at the same time.  Topsides received the same treatment.

It seems to me that if the bridge was impossible to inspect, they should have closed it and solved that problem instead of just letting it fall down.

And so it will soon seem to the legions of attorneys representing the families of those who died or who were injured.

I remain aghast at the whole bridge collapsing domino-style ostensibly due to the failure of one critical part.  Never would I have dreamed of bridge structures being built in that fashion.  Where there have been failures in the recent past, it didn't bring down the entire ensemble.

 

[Modelcar]

Joe-Daddy:

Yes, that will be some structure when it is finished.  I've seen computer model pic's similar to what you are showing in your post.

Years ago I used to cross over the Hoover Dam often on my way to and from the Vegas airport...{from Kingman}, and have eyeballed that canyon quite a bit, and it's awesome.

But the part for me that makes me "wonder" is transporting those heavy precast concrete "pieces" out over the "high wire" crane to deliver and put in place to build the "arch".  That just seems to be an awful "on the edge process".....!  Sure hope they can get it completed successfully, but first, they have to get the "high wire" crane back up in place as the first one collapsed last Fall.

[Anonymous]

Because of the need to preserve evidence, the Minneapolis I35W bridge collapse is being compared to a crime scene.  Of course, they do not mean that it is a crime scene in terms of sabotage being the cause.  But I would say that it actually is a crime scene.  The crime was the criminal negligence of failing to carry out the proper prescribed inspections that are intended to prevent the bridge from collapsing. 

This may be considered to be a rush to judgment because the cause of the collapse is not known.  However, MNDOT officials have admitted that they failed to properly inspect the bridge due to the location of welds, plates, and bolts that are within inaccessible pockets.  And that failure to inspect ought to be a crime even if the bridge does not fall down. It is beginning to look like the politicians really don't care if a bridge falls down.  They'll just blame it on the pigeons, and exploit the disaster to leverage a tax increase.  And it is beginning to look like the citizens of Minnesota are going to fall for this smokescreen.

[rjemery]

Because of the need to preserve evidence, the Minneapolis I35W bridge collapse is being compared to a crime scene.  Of course, they do not mean that it is a crime scene in terms of sabotage being the cause.  But I would say that it actually is a crime scene.  The crime was the criminal negligence of failing to carry out the proper prescribed inspections that are intended to prevent the bridge from collapsing. 

This may be considered to be a rush to judgment because the cause of the collapse is not known.  However, MNDOT officials have admitted that they failed to properly inspect the bridge due to the location of welds, plates, and bolts that are within inaccessible pockets.  And that failure to inspect ought to be a crime even if the bridge does not fall down. It is beginning to look like the politicians really don't care if a bridge falls down.  They'll just blame it on the pigeons, and exploit the disaster to leverage a tax increase.  And it is beginning to look like the citizens of Minnesota are going to fall for this smokescreen.

A valid point of view.  Despite the I-35W tragedy, I take it you feel a (fuel) tax increase is not justified to generate the funds to repair or replace deteriorated or obsolete infrastructure.  Regardless of who is at fault, those bridges in poor or unsafe condition need to be addressed -- and quickly.  Where do you propose the money should come from for that purpose?  Step two would be to write it all down in letters to your elected state officials.  Similar letters should be addressed to the Editors of newspapers in your area that deal with state matters.

A problem with all tax initiatives to address emergency situations is that the tax lives on long after the emergency ceases to exist, and then the tax money still flowing is used for unintended and frequently wasteful purposes.  Should Minnesota or other states adopt any new tax for bridge rebuilding purposes, I would hope a sunset rider is attached.

[J. Edgar]

Because of the need to preserve evidence, the Minneapolis I35W bridge collapse is being compared to a crime scene.  Of course, they do not mean that it is a crime scene in terms of sabotage being the cause.  But I would say that it actually is a crime scene.  The crime was the criminal negligence of failing to carry out the proper prescribed inspections that are intended to prevent the bridge from collapsing. 

This may be considered to be a rush to judgment because the cause of the collapse is not known.  However, MNDOT officials have admitted that they failed to properly inspect the bridge due to the location of welds, plates, and bolts that are within inaccessible pockets.  And that failure to inspect ought to be a crime even if the bridge does not fall down. It is beginning to look like the politicians really don't care if a bridge falls down.  They'll just blame it on the pigeons, and exploit the disaster to leverage a tax increase.  And it is beginning to look like the citizens of Minnesota are going to fall for this smokescreen.

A valid point of view.  Despite the I-35W tragedy, I take it you feel a (fuel) tax increase is not justified to generate the funds to repair or replace deteriorated or obsolete infrastructure.  Regardless of who is at fault, those bridges in poor or unsafe condition need to be addressed -- and quickly.  Where do you propose the money should come from for that purpose?  Step two would be to write it all down in letters to your elected state officials.  Similar letters should be addressed to the Editors of newspapers in your area that deal with state matters.

A problem with all tax initiatives to address emergency situations is that the tax lives on long after the emergency ceases to exist, and then the tax money still flowing is used for unintended and frequently wasteful purposes.  Should Minnesota or other states adopt any new tax for bridge rebuilding purposes, I would hope a sunset rider is attached.

 

 dems/libs are loving this........more tax to fix problems that we are taxed to fix now.....Michigan is a prime example....we are taxed on cig. to the tune of $1.75 a pack for "Internal improvments to roadways and bridges" and im sure many other states have simular taxes for simular things......and again i ask....weres that money now...wered it go....and why do they need MORE money......the highway bridges here arent falling to the ground but......theres 1 or 2 a week closed for "emergancy repair/inspection" in the Detroit metro area alone.....yet here they are already saying "MORE TAXES.............WE NEED MORE TAXES to protect you"......im not trying to make this political........... but really......

[rjemery]

dems/libs are loving this........more tax to fix problems that we are taxed to fix now.....Michigan is a prime example....we are taxed on cig. to the tune of $1.75 a pack for "Internal improvments to roadways and bridges" and im sure many other states have simular taxes for simular things......and again i ask....weres that money now...wered it go....and why do they need MORE money......the highway bridges here arent falling to the ground but......theres 1 or 2 a week closed for "emergancy repair/inspection" in the Detroit metro area alone.....yet here they are already saying "MORE TAXES.............WE NEED MORE TAXES to protect you"......im not trying to make this political........... but really......

Each jurisdiction is required (usually) by law to conduct an annual audit.  Somebody somewhere should be looking at what the total annual $1.75 tax receipts amount to, and how those funds were allocated.  You can ask that question of your state legislators, and if they do not respond adequately, you can write the Editor of the Detroit Free Press and quote your legislators. You can also request to meet with your legislators to drive home the point.  If this is an election year, you can also share your letter and the legislators' response with the opposition.

Your gripes should lead to positive action, not just more hot air.  Government for the people only works when taxpayers and citizens get involved.

I also believe you will be surprised at how seriously your legislators will take your query. The request will probably be sent to your state's Office of Management and Budget for answers and a response.  Ask for an accounting for the last three fiscal years.

Each elected official has a weighted number, based on polling, of how representative a single letter or query is on any given issue.  In my state, it is about 40.  A single letter means it is the voice of 40 citizens and potential voters speaking. The number jumps when it is published in the newspaper.  There is a person in each legislator's office who does nothing but read newspapers for articles and letters germane to that legislator's district or committee responsibilities.

Don't just complain.  Get involved.  Your voice means something.

[J. Edgar]

dems/libs are loving this........more tax to fix problems that we are taxed to fix now.....Michigan is a prime example....we are taxed on cig. to the tune of $1.75 a pack for "Internal improvments to roadways and bridges" and im sure many other states have simular taxes for simular things......and again i ask....weres that money now...wered it go....and why do they need MORE money......the highway bridges here arent falling to the ground but......theres 1 or 2 a week closed for "emergancy repair/inspection" in the Detroit metro area alone.....yet here they are already saying "MORE TAXES.............WE NEED MORE TAXES to protect you"......im not trying to make this political........... but really......

Each jurisdiction is required (usually) by law to conduct an annual audit.  Somebody somewhere should be looking at what the total annual $1.75 tax receipts amount to, and how those funds were allocated.  You can ask that question of your state legislators, and if they do not respond adequately, you can write the Editor of the Detroit Free Press and quote your legislators. You can also request to meet with your legislators to drive home the point.  If this is an election year, you can also share your letter and the legislators' response with the opposition.

Your gripes should lead to positive action, not just more hot air.  Government for the people only works when taxpayers and citizens get involved.

I also believe you will be surprised at how seriously your legislators will take your query. The request will probably be sent to your state's Office of Management and Budget for answers and a response.  Ask for an accounting for the last three fiscal years.

Each elected official has a weighted number, based on polling, of how representative a single letter or query is on any given issue.  In my state, it is about 40.  A single letter means it is the voice of 40 citizens and potential voters speaking. The number jumps when it is published in the newspaper.  There is a person in each legislator's office who does nothing but read newspapers for articles and letters germane to that legislator's district or committee responsibilities.

Don't just complain.  Get involved.  Your voice means something.

                                                         

  absolutely.....i burn up my email with the Hon. Mike Rogers and my state reps.almost daily....the Freep doesnt even answer me anymore niether does the Lansing State Journal...i think they hate me.....i consider myself overly active in my state gov. its our job as Citizens of the USA......most (80%) of people are happy to let "them" run the show till something happens....9-11.....the bridge disaster....genital warts.....then "they"(the same 80%) **** and moan about needing ( key word there is "need") something from the gov.......this country was founded on a system of government where the power is in the peoples hands....since FDR and his "New Deal" weve bred ourselves into a bunch of dependents....except people like me who continue to voice "opinions" and "right-wing garbage" about losing the power that supposed to ours anyway....then "they" write me off as a nutcase because  get on a sopabox and preach the Constitution to deaf ears............... 

[rjemery]

With few others contributing presently, I feel this thread has probably run its course on the initial topic, so related diversions seem apropriate at this time.  Responses are another matter.

 

[Anonymous]

Despite the I-35W tragedy, I take it you feel a (fuel) tax increase is not justified to generate the funds to repair or replace deteriorated or obsolete infrastructure. 

I feel that the funds can be generated without a tax increase.

There is a tendency to use the collapse to promote the premise that all infrastructure is crumbling and in dire need of new funding to fix it.  I hear it ten times a day on the news.  Of course this is nonsense.  Infrastructure is always in need of maintenance and funding is generally made available as required.  Contrary to what we are being told, structurally deficient bridges are not all in need of replacement.  But a state government that is hungry for as much funding as it can possibly get, regardless of need, will exploit the tragedy to stampede the public into the acceptance of an emergency tax increase.  After all, who could be so insensitive to the victims of the collapse as to deny a sweeping fix for our so-called crumbling infrastructure?  Not many would risk the label of insensitivity to challenge the logic.  Not even our governor apparently. 

I am not opposed to rebuilding the bridge, and I realize that the public will have to pay for it.  I just don't want the public to over pay.  And that will surly be the result of a tax increase.  They may sweeten the deal by offering a sunset, but they have already predicated the tax increase on a nearly endless variety of infrastructure problems besides the bridge that collapsed.  So, there is a higher probability that a new tax will grow larger rather than be sunset.  

One thing we can take to the bank is that this new bridge will be a real hum dinger.  They are toying with a 300 million dollar price tag, but I'll bet it tops one billion. This will be the world's strongest, most over-engineered bridge.  It will be a veritable monument to strength, security, technology, good taste, sensitivity, community art, and diverse transportation philosophies.  It will reach out to those who have been wounded, and it will reach out to the pigeons and spiders. 

[rjemery]

One thing we can take to the bank is that this new bridge will be a real hum dinger.  They are toying with a 300 million dollar price tag, but I'll bet it tops one billion.

I have no doubt the replaced bridge will be a showpiece.  It will probably make Scotland's Forth Railway Bridge look flimsy by comparison. 

 

[Modelcar]

.....I belive the infrastructure in this country really is in dire state of being.  I'm one who does do a bit of thinking what I may be driving over on interstates {bridges}, as we travel.  Just a bit scary.

How it should be handled to overcome the deferred maintenance {for years}, is a big question right now.

But overcome it must, or the headlines will be coming faster soon of some more happenings to our systems.

We seem to manage to try to "cure" problems all around the world and with our tax dollars, so it's about time we turn our efforts to our own living quarters.

We're being left in the dust with state of the art...transportation systems in other parts of the free world and ours just continues to "age", and do the best it can.

[joe-daddy]

I can think of a good solution to the bridge problems.  Since 18 wheeler trucks provide the single largest risk factor to any bridge, with their up to 80,000 lbs stressing the poop covered welds, we could, just ship by. . . train?  What da ya think? 

Or we could adjust the taxes on these trucks to make sure they pay sufficient revenue to cover the all the risks that the public incurs from their use of the public highways. 

Probably not very popular ideas inside the beltway, reckon?

Joe

 

 

[Northtowne]

As I browse this thread, I see many references to "structural failure". Having been involved in the design of steel structures for a long time, the term "structural failure" usually refers to a flaw in the design. There are very few incidents where this is the cause. The engineering principles related to the design of steel structures were developed early, starting in the late 1800's and the reliability of the design criteria was well proven by the time many bridges and tall buildings began to appear in the early 1900's. Most changes since have related to material changes(high strength steel, etc.) and not the criteria. Don't think that even the older railroad bridges were "hit or miss" designs. On this thread, most, if not all, the incidents cited are not structural failures in the sense described above. I post this because I have "put a pencil" to many designs of large steel structures and their connections and what happens afterward in construction and maintainence is usually beyond the designer's control. Yet, when a failure occurs such as the I35W incident, it is called a structural failure. That conveys the idea to many that the "beam should have been bigger" or "more bolts were needed at hold it" and that is almost always not the case.                            Northtowne

 

 

[Anonymous]

As I mentioned in another post, it is not possible for a public bridge to collapse due to a lack of funds, even though that is the message that is being shouted from the mountaintops.  Every vehicle that goes over a bridge takes some life out of the structure.  So does every increment of time.  It is a requirement that the condition be continuously monitored to determine if the bridge is safe.  If there is a lack of funds or any other impediment to discharging this responsibility, the bridge must be closed.  MNDOT officials have already admitted that they were unable to properly inspect the bridge. 

But setting aside the issue of inpsection, there is a new development that pertains to Northtowne's post above.  The latest news is that there is a suspected design flaw, in that the connector plates are too light.  This is really amazing.  I have not heard any solid confirmation that the plates are too light, but apparently there is some kind of evidence of this.  They are saying that, because of this design defect, the extra 100 tons of construction materials on the bridge was probably enough to cause the collapse.  So, if this is true, there was never the proper safety factor that was intended in the original design.  So this raises all kinds of new questions as the focus of the cause shifts from inspection negligence to design negligence. 

 

[rjemery]

I can think of a good solution to the bridge problems.  Since 18 wheeler trucks provide the single largest risk factor to any bridge, with their up to 80,000 lbs stressing the poop covered welds, we could, just ship by. . . train?  What da ya think? 

Or we could adjust the taxes on these trucks to make sure they pay sufficient revenue to cover the all the risks that the public incurs from their use of the public highways. 

Probably not very popular ideas inside the beltway, reckon?

 

First, the actual cause of the I-35W collapse has to be identified, then remedies including the adjusting of use taxes can be considered.  As of yesterday, as reported in today's newspapers, investigators are concentrating on underdesigned gusset plates and the fact that construction vehicles on the bridge may have overloaded the structure:

 

Federal authorities said one added stress on the gusset plates may have been the weight of construction equipment and nearly 100 tons of gravel on the bridge, where maintenance work was proceeding when the collapse occurred. A construction crew had removed part of the deck with 45-pound jackhammers, in preparation for replacing the two-inch top layer, and that may also have altered the stresses on the bridge, some experts said.

NY Times, "Potential Flaw Seen in Design of Fallen Bridge"

 

 

[Poppa_Zit]

J. Edgar,

Many of the major Railroad improvements undertaken in the 1930s were underwritten by the Federal Government. The most famous of these was the major electrification of the PRR connecting the wires around Philadelphia with New York, Washington, and Harrisburg.  FDR justified funding these projects as "make work" to try to jump start the economy. The railroad projects would get construction, manufacturing, and it was hoped mining back to work completing the projects.

 yes but at what cost....again its the taxpayers that foot the bill.....in the case you mentioned the PRR started to loose money the same year its payments thru taxation on the bonds issued for the "Ifrastructure Improvement Act" of 1933 came due....1946... the Pennsy kept sliding downward for other reasons.....and be that as it may the Fed still spent truck loads and truck loads of good taxpayer money on the fledgling auto industry....the Pennsy wires cost less then 50 million 1938 dollars...........................how much ya think they spent buildin all them there concrete bridges over RR's now abdn and forgotten back in the 20's an 30's.......fastforward to 1950ish and dwight d signs the "Interstate Highway Act" into law.....mandating fed funds  i.e. tax dollars to build more concrete bridges over even more tracks left for the weeds.....granted the fed has always spent like that but i feel they turned their backs (and taxpayer money) on the mode of transport that built this Nation.....even conrail was a half hearted 2nd attempt to save bankrupted carriers in the NE...but back to bridges.....im still not gonna start worrying about them falling like leaves..... here in SE Mi a week doesnt go by that some hiway downtown isnt closed for "emergancy bridge repairs" or "emergancy inspection account concrete chunks falling on roadway".....weres my $1.75 a pack tax on cig. earmarked for road repair???....

Actually, the main reason for most infrastructure repairs was NOT to provide jobs for the unemployed during the Depression, as some history books claim. The main reason was purposely unspoken -- as not to cause a general panic or unecessary political fallout.

Franklin D Roosevelt had looked into his crystal ball and saw the U.S. becoming heavily involved in a world war -- two renegade war machines were already eyeing their neighbors' natural resources. Japan was already invading Asian countries and Hitler had just appointed himself Dictator Chancellor of Germany. FDR knew there was no way the U.S. would not be involved -- he just didn't know to what degree. 

FDR knew the nation would need good roads and railroad infrastructure to either manufacture war materials for our allies or for our own military's use. Federal funds propped up the sagging auto industry and kept it from bankruptcy because its factories and workers would soon be needed to produce airplanes, airplane engines, tanks, jeeps and whatnot. The railroads were needed to move troops and equipment quickly and efficiently. The Hoover Dam, Grand Coulee Dam (opened six months after Pearl Harbor) and the dam system of the Tennessee Valley were all built to provide vast amounts of electrical power that would soon be needed for manufacturing as the war effort geared up. I didn't include the steel and shipbuilding industries, but they benefitted, too.

[spokyone]

Here is link to previous inspections and recommendations for I-35W
http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1350056.html