dano36 wrote:We could discuss for years to come where the upwards spiral began and who started it all and we will never come to an agreement on these matters. We can argue that people who started companies did so to make money which is true but could not achieve their goals without the American workers. Well the workers of course want a living wage plus the benefits they feel most essential to their famlies which is totally understandable. But where did the spiral begin. Did owners raise their prices to make more money or did workers demand higher wages and benefits which eventually resulted in the price increases. I can not say where. I am only 70 so it started before I came along. And whenever any employee received any kind of a raise, everyone who depended on these people raised their prices accordingly so in essense it was an upwards spiral to where neither side really got ahead. As third world education and technology improved then the owners realized that their companies here were never going to get any better because of the tit for tat arrangements and moved their facilities off shore to take advantage of the cheap labor. Now the game is that the companies are blaming their workers for them having to move and the workers blaming the companies for moving. Same old tit for tat. The older I get the more I begin to realize that its all about one world economy and at present we are on the downside because in this environment, the economy will eventually find its level much like water does. For years we had enjoyed being the top of the pack and have more in one room of our homes than most people in other countrys have in their entire house. Same goes for wages. But as the economy works to bring up the standards of these fledgling countrys, ours will decline until the norm is achieved and believe me, we still have a long way to fall. I am originally from the Western Pennsylvania area close to Youngstown, OH so I well know the sight of red skies, smelly smoke, mill trains and all the hustle bustle that went along with it. None of that is there now except for a mere shadow of what once was the fledgling Sharonsteel now run simply as a cold roll mill using imported steel. Sad Sad Sad. But examine the why it happened and what is yet to happen. Its going to get worse before it gets better. Our government is not on Wall Street. It is still in Washington. Wall Street is what is keeping this country afloat. When is the last time anyone in Washington produced a product or put money into our economy. NEVER. Yet they have managed to take much from us and keep asking for more even though our sources of good income disappear. Don't blame Wall Street. They are enterprising people there out to make a paycheck just like we do and they will continue to do it the best way they know how. You would do the same. Unfortunately this mindset has moved into Washington and politicians look more for ways to enrich their own lives and to hell with the people that are paying the way. I sound radical? I think not. I would fight to save my country in a minute as I have proven on three previous occasions. But I do that based on the principles for which this country stands, not the trends of today to ruin what our forefathers began. Thanks for reading and Goodbye Bethlehem.Dano
We could discuss for years to come where the upwards spiral began and who started it all and we will never come to an agreement on these matters. We can argue that people who started companies did so to make money which is true but could not achieve their goals without the American workers. Well the workers of course want a living wage plus the benefits they feel most essential to their famlies which is totally understandable. But where did the spiral begin. Did owners raise their prices to make more money or did workers demand higher wages and benefits which eventually resulted in the price increases. I can not say where. I am only 70 so it started before I came along. And whenever any employee received any kind of a raise, everyone who depended on these people raised their prices accordingly so in essense it was an upwards spiral to where neither side really got ahead. As third world education and technology improved then the owners realized that their companies here were never going to get any better because of the tit for tat arrangements and moved their facilities off shore to take advantage of the cheap labor. Now the game is that the companies are blaming their workers for them having to move and the workers blaming the companies for moving. Same old tit for tat. The older I get the more I begin to realize that its all about one world economy and at present we are on the downside because in this environment, the economy will eventually find its level much like water does. For years we had enjoyed being the top of the pack and have more in one room of our homes than most people in other countrys have in their entire house. Same goes for wages. But as the economy works to bring up the standards of these fledgling countrys, ours will decline until the norm is achieved and believe me, we still have a long way to fall. I am originally from the Western Pennsylvania area close to Youngstown, OH so I well know the sight of red skies, smelly smoke, mill trains and all the hustle bustle that went along with it. None of that is there now except for a mere shadow of what once was the fledgling Sharonsteel now run simply as a cold roll mill using imported steel. Sad Sad Sad. But examine the why it happened and what is yet to happen. Its going to get worse before it gets better. Our government is not on Wall Street. It is still in Washington. Wall Street is what is keeping this country afloat. When is the last time anyone in Washington produced a product or put money into our economy. NEVER. Yet they have managed to take much from us and keep asking for more even though our sources of good income disappear. Don't blame Wall Street. They are enterprising people there out to make a paycheck just like we do and they will continue to do it the best way they know how. You would do the same. Unfortunately this mindset has moved into Washington and politicians look more for ways to enrich their own lives and to hell with the people that are paying the way. I sound radical? I think not. I would fight to save my country in a minute as I have proven on three previous occasions. But I do that based on the principles for which this country stands, not the trends of today to ruin what our forefathers began. Thanks for reading and Goodbye Bethlehem.
Dano
Were in a global economy, like it or not. we are paying the price to bring the 3RD. World countries up to speed. So is most of Europe. Any one watch BBC? Not that it makes me happy neither. I had to leave my hometown of Aurora to find work, becuase the South and Central believe it or not, not many Mexicans) have cornered all the jobs through the Columbian's temp. services for the Immigrants they bring in. I, an American, and an Auroran, couldn't find a forklift job in Aurora, while I sat there, in there offices. sending SA after SA to forklift jobs 20 min. walk from my house. Taking jobs we don't want? I WANTED THAT JOB!! The Mexicans we have in Aurora are peed, too. They worked hard to get here, become citizens, and learn OUR language, and they're getting forced out, too. Corp. are doing what we do in our own jobs, trying to find the best possible profit. Henry Ford had it right. Have we forgetten how to do that?
jockellis wrote:G'day, Y'all,Actually, America wasn't the only country to have a depression. It covered the whole world. That is what allowed Hitler to come to power in Germany; he convinced the people that he would get them out of the economic doldrums. And he did. He had them working in defense industries and on the front lines of the battlefields.The water finding its own level thing would be easier if China would allow its currency to float. But they keep it artificially low so that can always beat our prices. With the way their economy is growing, they should have rampant inflation which would eat up any advantage they now hold.
a depressions to unrelated to the global trade war the smoot hawley tarrifs sparked. global trade dropped 60% as a result. As for Germany, their economic problems predated the depression. With teh collapse of the monarchy, the Weimar Republic never established itself. This was largely because of the rampant inflation that ravaged the lives of Germans throughout the 1920's. Actually, the US economy rapidly expanded between 1865 and the 1890's during a period of rampant deflation. As Milton Friedman once said, inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon. In other words, the difference between now (grow=inflation) and then (growth during deflation) is the floating currency vs the gold standard. The currency game is only a piece of the puzzle. The chinese have had to bolster their currency by purchasing dollars which has allowed the US to run up debt for war and mortgages. It will someday crack, that's why I own some gold. It's worth noting that foreign investors frequently lost their shirt in teh heady days of American growth as well. In the meantime, why doe sno one care that we have one of the highest corp tax rates in the world (which discourages bring overseas profits home)? up there with france and belgium. or that the cost of energy is several times that of many other countries. I read the other day that the port of LA is trying to force truckers to buy new trucks to reduce pollution. this will dramatically raise the cost of providing the services. In order to accomplish this, the port wants to squash the independent truckers and use a few large firms. Interestingly, the plan is being pushed mainly by the teamsters, who have for years unsuccessfully tried to organize the independent truckers. For years the unions have been exempted form anti-trust legislation that everyone seems to agree is bad. why shouldn't they compete just like eveyone else? Why do I pay such a large portion of my income to the federal government when the roads, bridges, and passenger rails crumble under government oversight? The chinese aren't stealing our wealth, we're trading it for money to support our global military might and unproductive programs. I read the other day that more than half the US population receives more in government benefits than they pay. not a good sign for working people. I live in a city where the few support the many, it's not pretty. For those that blame greed, our city taxes companies based on gross revenues...why? because manufacturing had enormous gross revenues but relatively small profit margins. our state used to tax companies based on the amount of fixed capital (or plant). aimed at who? manfacturing. no wonder it's all gone. I read in trains that the erie and lackawanna used to pay as much as $70k per mile per year in inflation adjusted (2005 dollars) property taxes to the state of nj. We turned our backs on manufacturing. We killed it mercilessly. When the railroads were struggling, they were thanked for their efforts by incompetent federa regulators telling them what to do and how much to charge for it. no?
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
....One thing about not guessing now is: Our standard of living is headed downward unless something out there on the horizon of change shows up...on our side...
Quentin
I am particularly disturbed by the poster who knows of Forklift jobs and could not get them as a Native of the USA. Yet Immigrants flock to these jobs apparently pre-arranged out of Columbia in Latin America?
Is that how I understood it? Correct me if Im wrong.
Regarding cars, Ford did not constantly update the Taurus model like the Japanese did with thier Toyotas and Hondas. Therefore Ford Taurus was not much of a car when people wanted to buy quality. In fact I considered the Taurus a bit of a brick/sled/barge in it's later production years compared to the more precise Japanese cars that are capable of doing battle in rush hour traffic with some agility.
Who do we blame? THe management? The Designers? The Factory? who knows?
I passed a few towns on the way home from the VA yesterday and noticed that people are adding on instead of buying newer or bigger homes. They are building service stations and delis where others can come to spend money. What happens when there is no more income to be made and all there is "Service" as far as the eye can see?
Yet down in Williamsburg there is a Facility that turns alumimum coil into Beer Cans. Ive taken coils out of Kentucky over the Smokies and deliver into the Busch facility. They can always use Aluminum and it does not look like we are going to run out of Aluminum or stop drinking beer anytime soon.
Unless they manage to build a plastic can for beer. Would that be a killer?
Re: the Taurus. Ford missed another opportunity by not driving the cost of the Taurus way down, which they could have because all the original investment had long been recouped. They could have way undersold every car in its class and still made money.
It may be the best car in the modern world. But I'm biased; I've owned three Tauruses and one Sable.
Back to steel. Above I read about innovation and cutting edge technology. Why don't we have new and innovative applications for steel? Where is the steel equivalent of Bell Telephone Laboratories?
...Ford will try again to increase {slow}, sales.....With Taurus....by naming next model year's Ford 500: Taurus.
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