Three step

[padave]

The CSX local switcher on the Hanover Sub in South Central Pa-wile there switching cars they say Three Step, what are they doing when the say that?

Thanks PaDave

Thanks for the answer on Three Step.

I have another question, when the engineer received the Three Step request does the employee give there name or does the engineer just go by how many requests were made for Three Step when clearing it? How does the engineer know it’s the right person clearing the Three Step?

PaDave

[PBenham]

 The first step is to (as applicable) set the train brakes, then the independent (locomotive) brakes. Then comes the second step, the engineer will put the throttle in idle and third, the selector is put in the neutral position. That will then render the locomotive stationary (at least in theory). The engineer will not release the selector, move the throttle into run 1 or release the independent until he/she is told by the employee that made the request to him/her that this employee is in the clear. Failing to do so will result in disciplinary action for the first "offense". Subsequent slip-ups will be dealt with according to the agreements with the BLE or UTU as applicable.

[Limitedclear]

 The first step is to (as applicable) set the train brakes, then the independent (locomotive) brakes. Then comes the second step, the engineer will put the throttle in idle and third, the selector is put in the neutral position. That will then render the locomotive stationary (at least in theory). The engineer will not release the selector, move the throttle into run 1 or release the independent until he/she is told by the employee that made the request to him/her that this employee is in the clear. Failing to do so will result in disciplinary action for the first "offense". Subsequent slip-ups will be dealt with according to the agreements with the BLE or UTU as applicable.

Nice try, but incorrect. Conrail started this Rule and it was contained in Conrail Safety Rule 1710(e)

STEP 1 : Apply the Train (Automatic and Independent) Brakes.

STEP 2 : Place Reverser in neutral position.

STEP 3 : Open the Generator Field Switch. 

The Engineer must maintain this protection until notified by the employee who requested it that the protection is no longer required.

LC

[CShaveRR]

We aren't quite as thorough at our end of the UP, but I daresay it's as effective:

Our expression is "set and centered"--brake set, reverser centered.  Brakeman has to hear that before he goes into the "Red Zone".

[edblysard]

PADave,

What they are doing.

A ground employee, conductor or brakeman, is going in between the cars or between the locomotive and the cars.

Three step, (down here called the Red Zone) prevents the engineer from moving the train or the locomotive with the employee in a position to be harmed by the moving equipment.

He or she may be lacing up air hoses, cutting in the air, (opening an anglecock) or tying/taking off a handbrake, all tasks that require the employee to be out of sight of the engineer and in between the equipment.

 

Only the employee who requested the three step protection or Red Zone may release it, and no one may "piggyback" on someone else's protections.

 

In other words, if I request three step, only I may enter the danger zone on that request, my helper has to ask for his own protection, which the engineer also has to acknowledge, so that if I clear myself, and the helper has not, and I tell the engineer to move the train, he may not do so until the helper releases his protection.

 

As was pointed out, it requires the engineer to apply the train brake and the independent brake, center the reverser, and put the generator field switch in the off position.

With this done, it prevents the alternator (they don't use generators anymore) from providing current to the traction motors, even if the throttle is moved, and because both the train brake and the independent brakes are applied, and the reverser is centered, (neutral position) the train can not move under it's own power.

 

Each one of these steps should disable the locomotive and prevent movement each on its own. Combined, it requires the engineer to do several steps before he can move, which requires him to think about what he is doing.

 

Trust me; nothing is more terrifying that having a train you are lacing up or knocking a brake off of suddenly move, you learn to jump mighty quick and mighty far!

Which is one of the reasons we are required by rule to keep one foot outside the rail when inbetween cars, so you can pull yourself back or step back quickly if there is unexpected movement.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/1506

See the FRA recommend practices, and the SOFA (Switching Operations Fatality Analysis) group study here.

[mackb4]

  Limitedclear is correct.

 It's another rule from Conrail that the NS has adopted.

 To be honest,it's a useless rule.Ever since I hired on the railroad when a conductor or brakeman didn't say anything you STOP .Simply as that.You never moved until you was told to.That's why theres rules for when theres a loss of communication.

 I also think the c-102 rule is not feasible.If you tie 2 or 20 brakes on a cut of cars,if the air doesn't hold when you cut away,then you have no business in cutting away where you did.

 I'm not against every rule,most are good rules to have.

 But alot of these new rules the railroads or FRA have adapted have taken away from doing your job in a timely manner.And haven't helped anything.It's put alot of unnecassary talk on the radio when crews are trying to switch.And made alot of crews mad when you can't do your work because of all the chatter.

 Sorry for getting off the subject alittle,but I had to get it off my chest  !

[Rodney Beck]

LC is correct on BNSF we use set and centered, it is all the same except for the generator field.

 

Rodney

[WSOR 3801]

The FRA requires "Set and Centered (job ID)" these days.  CP is a user of 3-point around here.  If in range, hand signals may be used, and are preferred. They want us to gab on the radio, but the batteries on the portables don't hold up, especially in the cold.

[tree68]

  To be honest,it's a useless rule.

More than anything else, it's an awareness thing.  It could require the engineer to turn around three times and click his (her) heels together. As long as the employee on the ground requests it and the engineer acknowledges it, then both know about it and the odds of bad things happening is thus reduced..

Ever since I hired on the railroad when a conductor or brakeman didn't say anything you STOP .Simply as that.You never moved until you was told to.That's why theres rules for when theres a loss of communication.

There are times when multiple employees are working on the train in various places.  If all request three-step (or your local convention), then one person is in control of the whole shebang - the engineer.

Think of it as lock-out/tag-out, where every person who wants the circuit shut down hangs their own padlock on the switch.  Until the last worker removes their lock, the circuit doesn't go back on.

It's put alot of unnecassary talk on the radio when crews are trying to switch.And made alot of crews mad when you can't do your work because of all the chatter.

Our tourist road frequently uses hand signals (including 3 step) even though we're the only ones on the air.  Of course, our usual train is 2-4 cars....

[TH&B]

So what is the hand signal for "3 step"?

[nbrodar]

Officially, there is no hand signal for 3-Step.  Every rule I've seen requires it to a verbal exchange.  Furthermore, CSX states it must be given over the radio.

However, one commonly used signal is arm outstretched, thumb and index figure forming an O, with the remaining fingers held up.  Think an OK sign.

Nick

[traisessive1]

... and CN has nothing. You say that'll do/stop and say im going in.

[enr2099]

... and CN has nothing. You say that'll do/stop and say im going in.

 

Yep. "That'll Do. Stretch. That'll Do. Cutting in the Air".

[coborn35]

So what is the hand signal for "3 step"?

You point in between the cars. Then when the engineer does the same, it means 3 Point Protection has been observed.

[PBenham]

 The first step is to (as applicable) set the train brakes, then the independent (locomotive) brakes. Then comes the second step, the engineer will put the throttle in idle and third, the selector is put in the neutral position. That will then render the locomotive stationary (at least in theory). The engineer will not release the selector, move the throttle into run 1 or release the independent until he/she is told by the employee that made the request to him/her that this employee is in the clear. Failing to do so will result in disciplinary action for the first "offense". Subsequent slip-ups will be dealt with according to the agreements with the BLE or UTU as applicable.

Nice try, but incorrect. Conrail started this Rule and it was contained in Conrail Safety Rule 1710(e)

STEP 1 : Apply the Train (Automatic and Independent) Brakes.

STEP 2 : Place Reverser in neutral position.

STEP 3 : Open the Generator Field Switch. 

The Engineer must maintain this protection until notified by the employee who requested it that the protection is no longer required.

LC

[wabash1]

 the most useless talk on the railroad .... stretch em. a waste of time and a waste of radio . if after 3months of being on the railroad if you cant tell if a pin has fallen and you haft to stretch . then you dont need to waste peoples time and work on the railroad quit and let them hire someone that can do the job. 

[Limitedclear]

 The first step is to (as applicable) set the train brakes, then the independent (locomotive) brakes. Then comes the second step, the engineer will put the throttle in idle and third, the selector is put in the neutral position. That will then render the locomotive stationary (at least in theory). The engineer will not release the selector, move the throttle into run 1 or release the independent until he/she is told by the employee that made the request to him/her that this employee is in the clear. Failing to do so will result in disciplinary action for the first "offense". Subsequent slip-ups will be dealt with according to the agreements with the BLE or UTU as applicable.

Nice try, but incorrect. Conrail started this Rule and it was contained in Conrail Safety Rule 1710(e)

STEP 1 : Apply the Train (Automatic and Independent) Brakes.

STEP 2 : Place Reverser in neutral position.

STEP 3 : Open the Generator Field Switch. 

The Engineer must maintain this protection until notified by the employee who requested it that the protection is no longer required.

LC

LC

[PBenham]

 The first step is to (as applicable) set the train brakes, then the independent (locomotive) brakes. Then comes the second step, the engineer will put the throttle in idle and third, the selector is put in the neutral position. That will then render the locomotive stationary (at least in theory). The engineer will not release the selector, move the throttle into run 1 or release the independent until he/she is told by the employee that made the request to him/her that this employee is in the clear. Failing to do so will result in disciplinary action for the first "offense". Subsequent slip-ups will be dealt with according to the agreements with the BLE or UTU as applicable.

Nice try, but incorrect. Conrail started this Rule and it was contained in Conrail Safety Rule 1710(e)

STEP 1 : Apply the Train (Automatic and Independent) Brakes.

STEP 2 : Place Reverser in neutral position.

STEP 3 : Open the Generator Field Switch. 

The Engineer must maintain this protection until notified by the employee who requested it that the protection is no longer required.

LC

LC

[zapp]

 the most useless talk on the railroad .... stretch em. a waste of time and a waste of radio . if after 3months of being on the railroad if you cant tell if a pin has fallen and you haft to stretch . then you dont need to waste peoples time and work on the railroad quit and let them hire someone that can do the job. 

Don't work with alot of autoracks, do ya?

[Limitedclear]

 The first step is to (as applicable) set the train brakes, then the independent (locomotive) brakes. Then comes the second step, the engineer will put the throttle in idle and third, the selector is put in the neutral position. That will then render the locomotive stationary (at least in theory). The engineer will not release the selector, move the throttle into run 1 or release the independent until he/she is told by the employee that made the request to him/her that this employee is in the clear. Failing to do so will result in disciplinary action for the first "offense". Subsequent slip-ups will be dealt with according to the agreements with the BLE or UTU as applicable.

Nice try, but incorrect. Conrail started this Rule and it was contained in Conrail Safety Rule 1710(e)

STEP 1 : Apply the Train (Automatic and Independent) Brakes.

STEP 2 : Place Reverser in neutral position.

STEP 3 : Open the Generator Field Switch. 

The Engineer must maintain this protection until notified by the employee who requested it that the protection is no longer required.

LC

LC

Laughin' at you, not with you...

BTW, disciplinary action is only conducted in accordance with the collective bargaining agreements which is another way in which your little scenario is wrong.

Having been on the ground and run an engine for Conrail and NS, I have used three step many, many times and I am very familiar with the correct and incorrect use of the rule. Whether I agree with it under all circumstances or not it is a rule and will be followed correctly. Done your incorrect way someone could be seriously injured or killed. I don't find any humor in it. After an injury or fatality it is too late to say you're sorry. 

I have revised my opinion of your knowledge in a sharply downward direction...

LC 

[csxengineer98]

Officially, there is no hand signal for 3-Step.  Every rule I've seen requires it to a verbal exchange.  Furthermore, CSX states it must be given over the radio.

However, one commonly used signal is arm outstretched, thumb and index figure forming an O, with the remaining fingers held up.  Think an OK sign.

Nick

i personaly use an outstreched arm with 3 fingers held up... signaling 3step.. and the engineer i have been working with reguerly for the past year or so will do the same to show me that it is applyed... but dont tell csx that..lol

csx engineer 

[Datafever]

And how do you signal three step clear?

[edblysard]

With three yard jobs using the same radio channel, at the same time, it gets pretty hectic trying to get air time, so we use hand signals when ever possible.

And we cheat on the way we ask for three step protection, or red zone.

FRA says you have to verbally ask for three step, there is no official hand signal for requesting it, or showing clear.

Now, with the number of times we have to go between the cars, you can imagine how much radio chatter there can be.

Down here, when we have visual contact with the engineer, we stick one arm straight up, and extend the other towards the cars, in an L shape.

The engineer will acknowledge with the old "cutting in the air" sign, arm outstretched, fist with a thumb stuck out (hitch hikers sign) and then turn the fist, as if he is turning a anglecock, or with a horn toot/bell ring.

We go in, do what we have to, get clear, and hold both arms up, like a calf roper does when he is finished tying off a calf, to show we are "clear".

 

It makes no sense to me to clutter up the radio when I am looking directly at my engineer, eye to eye.

Engineers are former switchmen, so they know what we are doing in there, and why, have experienced the same problems we do, and understand why we try to keep off the radio when we can.

 

The reasoning why we have three step or red zone protection makes a great deal of sense, the reasoning behind having to verbally request it doesn't.

When I pointed out to the FRA inspector that they, the FRA, accept the fact that I can safely use a hand signal to kick loaded LPG tank cars all day long, or stop a moving train, but some how I can't use a hand signal to hold movement while I knock off a hand brake or lace up a air hose resulted in the normal bureaucratic blank look.

Both are dangerous things to do, kicking cars, and being in between cars, yet it is allowable to set a loaded bomb in motion with hand signals, not allowable ask the engineer to sit still and not move with the same system.

 

The FRA's position is that if I use a hand signal to go into the red zone, and a few minutes later, my engineer sees someone who resembles me walking around, he, (the engineer) might move the train, thinking I am in the clear when in fact, I am not.

I pointed out that if my engineer moves the train with out a clear, precise command from me informing him I am clear, be it with a hand signal or a radio command, he is a fired SOB.

In fact, by rule, the engineer may not move the train at all on his own, except in an emergency situation, with out a clear command from the employee in charge of the movement.

In the 10 years I have been switching, I have yet to work with any engineer who isn't terrified of running over a member of his crew, and doesn't go to great lengths to make sure everyone is clear before he takes a signal to move, nor have I had any engineer move a train without a clear command to do so.

Those that can, do.

Those that can't, teach.

Those that can't do or teach work for the government.

[jeaton]

This from Ed is the deal: "In fact, by rule, the engineer may not move the train at all on his own, except in an emergency situation, with out a clear command from the employee in charge of the movement."

I had my limited experience as a brakeman before radios.  You can bet the engineer was not moving until he was sure everybody was in the clear.  I wasn't using them, but I was around the business when radios came into use.  There is no doubt that there were times when an engineer assumed he had an order to move when in fact the order was for an engineer on another crew.

To me it doesn't make any difference-hand signals, radio, yells, or if you can, mental telepathy-the object is clear communication.

[traisessive1]

CP Rail's 3 point protection is this ... Independant applied, reverser centered and govenor field switch off.

 And as for stretching, its a safety thing. Some cars are hard to tell. And some cars are just plain crap and pins fall and joints dont make. Switching the yard the other day, I had a pin pull itself just by being bumped by the slack.

 So don't say stretching is useless.

[Limitedclear]

Ed -

Every once in a while you run across a bad apple. We had one young engineer who had some real organic problems. Used to threaten his conductors regularly. Most of us wouldn't work with him at all for obvious reasons. Then one night he had it out with his girlfriend in a bar parking lot. Ran her over with his pickup. We blow a little extra for him when we pass his new digs, Attica State Prison...

LC  

 

[edblysard]

Now thats funny, Attica...

Guess I have been lucky in that respect.

Then again, on such  small property, everyone knows everyone else on a first name basis.

All of our engineer came from the switchmans roster, so regardless of the FRA insistance otherwise, we do reconize each others voices on the radio.

 

[route_rock]

  Fine instead of saying stretch em I will just let you bash into them at 4 so when you do stop and all the slack runs out then I dont have to waste your precious time with something that is simple to do to make sure the pin HAS dropped. Oh and just for your info we have guys out here that have been here since Q days who still say stretch em. Waste of time? I think not.

  We have hand signals for goin between on BNSF day time you hold one hand pointing to the train the other to the sky. Night its a lantern signal  going horizontal about waist height side to side.Engineer response for both is one blast on the whistle. Radio is simple I always say Going between on the _________(pick a train) if I have a brakie I say Conductor is going between and always have the brakeman call for his own and clear his own. When clearing I always call teh brakeman and ask if hes clear and if not I just tell him to contact me or the engineer.

[WSOR 3801]

I believe the rules state that EVERY joint must be streched, to make sure it is good.  Some cars just don't want to work right.  Sometimes you need to strech out the cushion drawbars to physically get in there to make the air, especially with a motor with a plow.  Two plows together can get real tight.

CN on the Waukesha Sub says "Set and Centered (engine number or job number)" a lot.

The FRA wants enigine number or job symbol on every transmission.  On our small property we pretty much know most voices on the radio, and there isn't much name duplication.  Not too many guys using Bert or Gomer.

The going in hand signal I use looks we the old ZZ Top music videos.  Big round swing and point in towards the hoses.  Engineer might wave, or flash the headlight to acknowledge.  Requires a job briefing so that engr and cndr know what signs are used.

[tree68]

Officially, there is no hand signal for 3-Step.  Every rule I've seen requires it to a verbal exchange.  Furthermore, CSX states it must be given over the radio.

However, one commonly used signal is arm outstretched, thumb and index figure forming an O, with the remaining fingers held up.  Think an OK sign.

Nick

We use the three fingers in the air to call for 3 step, then turn the same down to remove it.  Oftimes the trainman will use both hands, pushing the hand signal down with the "back" hand.

In either case, the engineer replies with the same signal to confirm.

 As for stretching - we do runarounds on virtually every trip, and on the out leg, it's with a train full of passengers.  If the trainman isn't fully confident the pins have dropped (and remember, on pax equipment, they 'drop' up), a stretch helps ensure that things are right.  It's more or less discouraged, but not banned by any stretch of the imagination...  The couple of seconds it takes is worth preventing the hassle if the train pulls apart...