I found another really cool book Illinois Central, Monday Morning Rail by Jim Boyd, which raises a couple of IC questions:
He states that most IC trains in the 60's only required 2 GP9's for power, because the lines were so flat in profile. He then goes on to say that IC ordered some 6 axle diesels for the Kentucky coal mine lines. Which is it, flat, or hilly?
What did IC do at the Paduca, Kentucky shops, between the time they built and re-built lots of big steam engines in the 40's and early 50's, and the time they started rebuilding Geeps in the late 60's?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Q 1. While I don't have any details on grades on the Louisville line, my casual observation is that there is a fair amount of up and down on that line. An inquiry directed to the PAL or the IC Historical Society might get you some info. Another thought about that. Steve Lee, who heads up the UP's steam program, was an engineer for the IC on that Division. Maybe he would be the one to answer a railfan's question.
Q2. I believe that Paducah became the primary "back shop" for heavy diesels repairs after steam. With the experienced workforce, it became the logical choice location for the rebuild program.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
My dad was a "hogger" for the IC out of Jackson, Tn. for a long time till they closed the yard and NS bought it. He transfered to a road board out of Memphis to Fulton, KY. Eventually he had enough seniority to hold a TSE job at Fulton.
I used to go down to the yard and ride with them as they either switched in the yard or when they went out with one locomotive, a van, and alot of dynamite, to take care of beaver damns that flooded the right of way. That was alot of fun, but alas, those days are gone.
I returned to Southern Illinois last week on spring break. Unfortunately, the line thru my hometown is now abandoned (Mattoon - Evansville). There are still a few spots where the line is in place, in and around Olney and Newton.
I did get to see a coal train at Palestine on the old Indy line. With the refinery and other industries, it is hard to believe that IC let that go. Ditto the Louisville line. That seems to be pretty productive.
Looking back, the IC bought the Iowa line back, yet there has not been big traffic on it. It just doesnt seem to fit on their map. Does anyone know if they ever had second thoughts on other spin off lines? I think they wanted the Shreveport speedway line back, but what about the Louisville or Indy lines?
ed
Murphy Siding wrote: Did IC sell off it's trucking concrens, or did it just fade away? On a side note: I sometimes forget that common sense and Government sometimes work at cross purposes to each other.
Did IC sell off it's trucking concrens, or did it just fade away?
On a side note: I sometimes forget that common sense and Government sometimes work at cross purposes to each other.
Illinois Central was purchasing New Trailers in the 1990's at least up to the CN merger.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
MP173 wrote: I did get to see a coal train at Palestine on the old Indy line.
I did get to see a coal train at Palestine on the old Indy line.
greyhounds wrote:6) established a dedicated train to handle steel between Chicago and St. Louis (again, diging it out against the trucks at 275 miles.)
6) established a dedicated train to handle steel between Chicago and St. Louis (again, diging it out against the trucks at 275 miles.)
I gather this lasted at least untill the CN merger. Was this one of the succesful projects?
Murphy Siding wrote: MP173 wrote: I did get to see a coal train at Palestine on the old Indy line. What kind of power is on a coal train on that line? I presume the line is fairly flat? Do you recall if the IC trains of old were *lightly powered*?
They run UP power, CSX crews through on the CSX St. Louis/ Indy tracks to Terre Haute IN, where it changes over to INRR crews. I'm not good with engine types n such but here's a couple picks I've got from along the CSX tracks, to give you an idea.
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/64014/ppuser/4309
All of them run with pushers too, along with the two lead engines.
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/64018/ppuser/4309
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/67300/ppuser/4309
inch
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/4309
I've enjoyed reading about the IC on here and don't really have much to offer. I do remember the IC in Palastine back in the early 60's. My grandpa cut meat for a restaurant in Marshall and part of it came from Seivers meat packing there. I use to ride down with him if we got low on something before the next delivery. They were next to the IC tracks and I'd get to watch IC go through. I got to go to the yard a few times and as I remember the roundhouse n turntable and a couple other building were still there then. Mullen's French salad dressing was made there too, but I don't remember if they got or shipped anything by rail.
Robinson had the refinery, the Pottery [gone] and the Heath candy company [now Heresy's and may be closing]. All had rail service, but don't know if they served were all IC, NYC [Cairo line] or both.
What I remember bout IC in Greenup and Toledo [Mattoon / Evansville] isn't much by the time I was running round some over in there, I had girls and cars on my mind, I do remember the IC running through there. I had a aunt and uncle that lived in Toledo and the tracks weren't to far from their house. I use to go parking back a field road just off 121 next to the tracks N of Greenup and watching the trains just before the bridge over the Embarras [Embral] river. Some of the timbers from the rail bridge were use to build a cover bridge on old US 40 west of Greenup [or so I was told]. The depots for Greenup and Toledo are still around though both have been moved to new locations and are being persevered as Museums.
gopherstate: Thanks for the addition to this thread. It's interesting, that there are so many ghosts of the IC around in SD and MN. The buildings and ROW are still in and around Sioux Falls. I have to wonder how IC made any money on this line towards the end. Maybe they didn't?
closed circuit to gopherstate: I may have gotten a PM or e-mail from you sometime back.(?) I say *may*, because I saw the sender name only, and the system crashed before I could open it.
Murphy, I've been reading Don Hofsommer's "Steel Trails of Hawkeyeland." He talks about how the loss of the Morrell traffic out of Sioux Falls, and elsewhere, affected the ICG.
If you haven't already, and don't mind reading about your neighbor to the southeast, it's a good book.
Jeff
inch53:
I was in Palestine last spring and fortunately a coal train came in when I was there. The old depot is still there and used as a yard office, etc. Do you know how often the coal trains run to Newton?
I talked a bit with a worker and there is considerable amount of business down there in the Palestine/Robinson area. If my memory is correct there is a sizeable shipper still in Palestine and the refinery is pretty big in Robinson.
I grew up on the Mattoon - Evansville line in a small town north of Olney. The daily passages of the two daily trains was an "event" for not only me, but other folks in town. Yes, it was a very boring place to live and the train provided excitement. I took a number of pictures of those trains, starting out with a Brownie camera and progressing to a 35mm by 1975. After awhile the daily trains seemed pretty boring...Effingham, Mattoon, Centralia and other places were hotspots for me.
There was a big bicyle plant in Olney I worked at in summer of 74 that IC switched. My summer job was actually loading boxcars (and trucks) with bikes. The traffic manager for AMF knew my interests in trains and gave me his Official Guides as he received new ones.
One thing I regret now is not taking a picture of the curved trestle just south of Newton where the line curved to parallel Rt 130. My favorite picture of the line was at Newton of black geeps crossing the "Ambraw". (caught plenty of catfish in that river as a kid).
BTW, did you grow up in Marshall? I knew a guy from there that I played college hoops with...Joe Ferris. I heard he lives now in Robinson. Crazy guy.
One more thing about the IC. It was a big railroad and I think people tended to identify with the local operations, perhaps more than with other railroads, although the many discussions of the Milwaukee Road allowed me to realize there was a HUGE difference between the Midwest operations and Lines West.
The IC had many identities, obviously. The Mainline of Mid-America had the wonderfull double main thru Illinois which allowed 100mph on its passenger trains. This line was a very high density operation with pre Amtrak passenger trains, coal, grain, manifests, and intermodals.
Consider the Iowa line...it just didnt seem to "fit" in the system. Today, I am not sure if it does with CN with only one manifest daily in each direction across the line. Sure, there is grain and locals, but it doesnt really fit the profile of a Class 1 carrier...or am i missing something? I know that in the 60's the Iowa line carded several manifests (3 -4 in each direction) and a couple of passenger trains. Meat had to be important for the line.
The secondary lines in Illinois (Gilman - EStL, EStL - Duquoin, Bluford cutoff) never really seemed to generate much business either. Then what about all the branches in Illinois? Low density expensive operations. The lines to Indy and Louisville seemed out of place. Was there any really significant line other than the mainline between Chicago and New Orleans? It is difficult to come up with any.
What about the deep south? Look at a map of the IC and compare the lines in Illinois to the lines in Mississippi. It is hard for me to think of the Illinois Central being a significant railroad in Mississippi, but it was. Obviously, I claimed ownership of the IC for what I knew...an Illinois railroad. No doubt the folks in Mississippi did the same, as did Iowa residents.
The more I think about it, the IC got really lucky in the 80's when the carving knife came out and the branches and secondaries were sold off or abandoned. Sure, the Meridian speedway is valuable now...but it wasnt then was it? It took a regional line to operate the Indianapolis line the way it needed to be. Ditto the Paducah line.
ADM and Cat secured the Peoria line and PRC off of the UP did the same for the EStL - Duquoin line, but most of the other lines went away. What was left was a Florida East Coast operation...north south, single track CTC, and very streamlined.
I always thought of the Illinois Central as being an Illinois railroad, I always knew it went other places, but for me it was not the Iowa Central or Mississippi Central, although it certainly could have been.
MP173 wrote: Was there any really significant line other than the mainline between Chicago and New Orleans? It is difficult to come up with any. What was left was a Florida East Coast operation...north south, single track CTC, and very streamlined.
Was there any really significant line other than the mainline between Chicago and New Orleans? It is difficult to come up with any.
What was left was a Florida East Coast operation...north south, single track CTC, and very streamlined.
Ed,
The IC's own (pre GM&O acquisition) Chic-StL, the Fulton-B'ham, the Edgewood Cutoff and the Fulton-L'ville lines were all very significant until the later 60's. All handled a goodly volume of freight and, with the exception of the Edgewood Cutoff, all were well served by passenger trains. IMHO emasculated would be a more appropriate adjective than streamlined.
Mark
jeffhergert wrote: Murphy, I've been reading Don Hofsommer's "Steel Trails of Hawkeyeland." He talks about how the loss of the Morrell traffic out of Sioux Falls, and elsewhere, affected the ICG.If you haven't already, and don't mind reading about your neighbor to the southeast, it's a good book. Jeff
ED,, I see a coal train bout every other day through here, loaded east and empties west from where I live outside of Martinsville. I'm guessing their all going to Newton.
There is a bio-diesel plant going in over in Newton also, so business will pick up some from there. The ethanol plant outside of Palastine gives the INRR a lot of business also. Shipping to Robinson and maybe elsewhere. I think there is a couple elevators shipping by rail along there too, along with fertilizer and anhydrous deliveries. Just a note the IC/CN still owns the tracks from Newton to Effingham.
I kinda know the area your from, but not well. I never got down 130 much other than going to Newton, Olney or Oblong, although we use to camp at Hidalgo for a couple years. I've heard of the trestle S of town, but like so many other stories, it was to late for me. I've fished the Ambraw too, mostly up around Charleston, a little by Greenup.
We get to Mattoon some, but Effingham mostly and every time we do we go down by the yard to see what's going on. Some times the wife drops me off at the station while she go shopping, but I've yet to have any trains go through while I'm there, but as soon as I leave, well you know.
I was raised just outside of Clarksville [7 mile north], but went to school in Marshall and worked around there when I wasn't farming. I also remember Joe Farris, but haven't seen him in ages and don't know where he got off to.
A little bit bout Clarksville, it was probably like the town you grew up in [maybe 25 people], only with no RR to watch. We had a Baptist church, general store, blacksmith shop, a place kinda like a café, and a 2-room school house [that closed the year before I started] and a body shop, and all of them sold gas. Phones were still the old hand crank till the early 60's [there's a story there too], the main road was gravel till the late 60's and most everyone had a chicken house and an outhouse [yes I tipped one or two]. Wasn't much there but it was a great place to grow up and plenty of adventure to be had. I can tell some grandpa stories [as my grandkids call'em], from back then, but I won't here.
You are describing the town I grew up in...I remember the crank phones, outhouses (no I never tipped one), the gravel roads, blacksmith shop. My dad owned the local grocery store, so I learned at an early age how to cut meat and make sausage and hamburger, stock shelves, make change, pump gas, etc. My favorite job tho was baling hay, as I actually got paid (started at $1 per hour in 1967 and was earning a whopping $2.50 by 1972). Of course gas was about 29 cents a gallon and in 1968 a package of Topps baseball cards cost me 5 cents. Still got those cards too.
OMG, I am sounding just like my dad telling me stories of surviving the depression years.
I couldnt wait to get out of there as a kid, sure wish I could go back now as things werent as bad as I thought.
I did grow to hate those orange and white rebuilt GP8/10s of the IC. UGLY.
One huge difference between then and today (and there are many) is that we used the ROW as public walkway. We "walked the tracks" all the time to go hunting, fishing, trapping, or just to walk. The ROW cut thru a great woods. We would walk a mile to the trestle and shot BB guns or just throw rocks in the creek. Today the IC is gone, the tracks are gone and the woods is a private "hunting club".
Imagine what would happen if someone went walking down a railroad ROW today carrying a gun (and rightfully so as I wouldnt want to be operating a train and see someone with a rifle standing off to the side). Times have changed, somethings good, others not so good.
Hi,
Thank you for the question, as it gives me an opportunity to tell of my most favorite train memories...........
My grandmother's house was/is on the east side of Anna Illinois (40 miles or so north of Cairo) and I spent vacations there as a kid in the 1950s. Steam was still the main freight locos in the early/mid '50s, and then the Geeps took over in about 1958. Passenger trains were mostly powered by chocolate/brown E units.
The house was modest (with 2 hole outhouse) and was across the road from the tracks. There were 4 tracks, which I later learned were two mains, a passing siding, and an industry siding. Trains were fairly frequent (1 or so an hour as I recall) and the freights tended to be mixed or coal trains. The passenger trains, which of course included the City of New Orleans, etc., generally did not stop at Anna, but flew by doing a terrific speed.
I ALWAYS ran to get a look at the passing trains, and at night the call of the whistle or horns was something I still remember.
My closest encounter was when an 0-8-0 steamer was switching some cars to the new mill that sprung up (blocked part of my view of the tracks, darn it). I got within 10 feet or so of it and it was HUGE. I was 11 or so, and this thing was a monster of a machine! I recall how big it was compared to the rails and questioning how it could stay on the track (I still wonder about this). In short, my most wonderful train memories are of those days in Anna.
My Dad grew up there, and talked of the many folks that tried to beat the train in old 1920s cars or even horse and buggy. Many never made it.
He also talked of a major derailment in the early '30s, and stuff was everywhere. He grabbed a large container of something and ran home with it. It turned out to be powdered eggs, and for years thereafter the thought of eating powdered eggs was no fun (especially in the WWII Army).
Anna was not a real railroad town like Centralia or Paducah, but the general feeling for the RR was good, and the railroad represented good, hard, honest work for many.
Cosmetically, the RR never did much to their steam locos and favored the large square signature sand dome. Some loved it, but many thought it "ugly". Their Geeps were plain black, which for a coal hauler made sense. And they never had the pretty PS1 boxcars like many railroads had either. But, they did have the chocolate/orange streamliners, and they were simply gorgeous. Lastly, how many popular songs talk of a particular Railroad? Not many, but one of the best is "City of New Orleans", which although sad, is a song that has stood the test.
Hey, glad to read all these postings here, it makes me happy!!!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
The City of New Orleans is i believe one of the best railroad songs ever written. That and the Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald paint a very vivid picture of their subjects ("does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?") & ("the sons of Pullman Porters and the sons of engineers, ride their father's magic carpet made of steel").
Unfortunately, I never witnessed IC steam and the orange/brown passenger trains. My IC was black geeps on a branch line switching cars of limestone and then passing by with trains that got progressively shorter and slower as time passed. The geeps turned orange and the 90 pound rail started falling apart as the trains got smaller. 35mph became 25, then 10, and then a slow crawl. Finally the trains, rails and ballast went away.
MP173 wrote: The City of New Orleans is i believe one of the best railroad songs ever written. That and the Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald paint a very vivid picture of their subjects ("does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?") & ("the sons of Pullman Porters and the sons of engineers, ride their father's magic carpet made of steel").Unfortunately, I never witnessed IC steam and the orange/brown passenger trains. My IC was black geeps on a branch line switching cars of limestone and then passing by with trains that got progressively shorter and slower as time passed. The geeps turned orange and the 90 pound rail started falling apart as the trains got smaller. 35mph became 25, then 10, and then a slow crawl. Finally the trains, rails and ballast went away.ed
Have the gales come early? It is November . . . .
the gales have arrived! And will be here in full force by next weekend.
Those old general stores were a great place to hang out as a kid. In the winter the farmers would stop in and set round the potbellied stove n complain bout the weather, markets and tell stories, some them were also most lies with just a grain of truth. The summer was soda pops or ice cream setting outside on the porch. You could buy enough loose candy to get sick or at least ruin your supper. Course I'd hang out at the body shop and black smith learned a lot hanging round those places, that's lasted through a lifetime.
I was raised on a farm and started handlin hay before I big enough to handle them. I was 13 when I started baling for different farmers round there for .02 a bale, when I made .10, well that was big money for me. I hated doing it for hourly wage; I could make more by the bale in a day with a good crew and a big field. By 72, I was employed by Uncle Sam in the USAF and had a family, but I'd still find time for some hay balin for extra money.
Like I said Clarksville didn't have any tracks. I use to sleep outside a lot n the summer and listen to the PRR whistles and on a good night I could hear'em pulling hard out of Mill Creek bottoms 4 mile south. Several times me and another farm kid would ride horses down through the bottoms an camp by the bridge. There was a good fishing hole not far from it and a time or two a hobo would be around. It was something setten round the fire listen to some of their stories bout riding rail and eatin stew.
It was also wild country along Mill creek, from the Edgar county line to the Wabash river, lots of woods, not many people so there was plenty of places for huntin n trappin and fishing. I did a lot of it back then, but now, what isn't posted, leased areas or a big lake and park, has been almost destroyed by 4 wheelers.
The story you told bout the decline of the branch line sounds bout the same as the Cairo line through here. As a kid I can remember watching the coal and freight trains fly through W Union, Walnut Prairie and Snyder [had family that live through there]. It seemed as time passed the trains got fewer, shorter and slower, till they were gone by mid 70's or shortly after. Around 82-84 or so the tracks, ties, roadbed was gone also.
MOBILMAN,
I've been through Anna a few times back in 70's, right fine country down in there. I never saw any IC steam, but did see a few Geeps as I remember in Effingham. I really enjoyed your story. It reminded me of a few other stories, I'd heard growing up bout the days of steam and such, like so many do. But those are for another time n place
Inch:Your description of the general store fit my dad's to a t. We had the pot bellied stove and the loafers bench out front.
My dad bought the old IC depot and used it as a storage building. I never got paid by the bale.
You are right about the unavailability of land for hunting/fishing these days. It used to be you could go just about anywhere...no longer.
Hi again,
May I add to my earlier posting about life in Anna Illinois next to the IC tracks........
But first may I say that it has made my day to be able to respond to this posting! Eighteen years ago today my Father passed away suddenly, and of course it was his childhood home in Anna (Illinois) where my "bestest" train and related memories occured.
I was born (1944) and raised in Chicago, and the opportunity to go to "Mom's" in Anna was a super treat for a city kid.
The Mill (Wright Bros.) sprung up next to the tracks in the mid '50s and grew each year. Today only a small portion of it remains. I was unhappy that it blocked my view of the tracks somewhat, but got to enjoy the sights and smells of their workings.
My grandmother had no indoor plumbing until about 1957 and that was one cold water spigot, that went thru a sink and outside to the ground. Her kitchen stove burned wood, but the folks at the mill filled a shed with old corncobs for her regularly. How in the world she could turn out those meals like she did with a stove like that was amazing!!!
The house was 4 rooms (2 br) and the living area was heated by a large potbelly coal stove. And yes, I remember in the early '50s when the iceman delivered the block of ice for the icebox - a name still used by many of our parents.
The best part of the house was the front porch and its swing. You could sit there and hear the cicadas in the summer and watch carefully at the occasional car that went down the gravel road (Grove "Avenue"). And of course, I was absolutely nuts over that first indication that "a train is coming". Actually, at 63 I am still that way!
I loved the freights, which were usually long and as I wrote earlier, either a mixed train or coal train. And, the red side door caboose was always at the end.
I recall some of the earlier passenger trains being pulled by steam and they were the olive drab cars. But as I recall, the beautiful chocolate/orange passenger cars - either heavyweight or streamliner - always rated at least one or more E units. And they were fast!!!
And folks, at that time the front door was locked only when no one was home, and usually on summer nights it was open with only a screen door to keep out the bugs. Anyway, my sisters and I usually ended up on the living room floor to sleep, and those oncoming horns and whistles have got to be the most wonderful sounds ever heard!!!
Grandmom passed away in 1961, and the house was sold. I'ved stopped by there many times over the last 20 years on my drives from Texas to Chicago, and the house still stands (but the outbuildings are all gone), and it is fixed up nicely and has indoor plumbing. Grove avenue is now asphalt, and the mill is just a shell of what it once was.
My biggest disappointment is the two track main is now one track, and the passing siding is gone, and the freight siding looks to be almost unused.
Lots of other Anna stories to tell, but they are not train related and don't belong here.
Thank you all,
RRFoose wrote:Does the IC/CN still operate any GM&O trackage? I know they still use the line from Laural, MS into Mobile, but that's about all I can pull together. Most of the dated maps of the GMO and IC don't show the other competing railroad with much detail (if at all), so it's hard to compare which lines they currently use.
The CN still has Chicago-Joliet from the GM&O. It was kept because of the refinery business near Joliet.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.