The newer Railroad Radio Frequency's.

[Anonymous]

Does anyone have the list or the link to all of the new Railroad Radio Frequency's that are soon to start? Thanks,Allan.

[tree68]

Pretty sure they are going narrowband FM - which means there will be a channel between each of the existing channels. Haven't heard how they will designate them.

[K. P. Harrier]

What source said there are new frequencies coming?

[Dutchrailnut]

Don't expect new Frequencies anytime soon.
to keep engines fit for interchange they must have a radio that works on current 99 railroad channels.
Whomever is gone go outside those 99 channels will need to convince 22000 locomotives and their owners to invest up to $5k per locomotive for new radio's antennas etc.

[Anonymous]

That's crazy. The need to change every single Radio for 22,000 Thousand Locomotives. That's is nuts. Why couldn't they just leave well enough alone. Allan.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan

Does anyone have the list or the link to all of the new Railroad Radio Frequency's that are soon to start? Thanks,Allan.

Who said that there will be new frequencies for railroad use?

[zardoz]

In 1997, the Commission consolidated all frequencies below 800 MHz that were allotted to the Industrial and Land Transportation Radio Services, including the Railroad Radio Service, into one new pool, the Industrial/Business Pool. Replacement of Part 90 by Part 88 to Revise the Private land Mobile Radio Services and Modify the Policies Governing Them, PR Docket No. 92-235, Second Report and Order, 12 FCC Rcd 14307, 14317 (1997). Under the consolidation plan, AAR serves as the only FCC certified frequency advisory committee responsible for coordination of the following frequencies: 160.215-161.565 MHz, 452.900-452.96875 MHz, and 457.900-457.96875 MHz. See 47 C.F.R. § 90.35(b).
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/aarmou.html

On March 24, 2000, the Association of American Railroads (AAR), an association representing the U.S. railroad industry and licensee of 1,069 land mobile base stations used for Positive Train Control (PTC), petitioned the Commission to modify the licenses for those stations into a single geographic license whose total area would be defined as a 70-mile zone on either side of the rights-of-way of all operating rail lines in the United States. PTC, once called an Advanced Train Control System (ATCS), operates on six Industrial/Land Transportation frequency pairs in the 900 MHz band and is designed to prevent train collisions, high speed accidents, or incursions into locations reserved for roadway workers. See Waiver of Sections 90.621(d), 90.623(a), 90.629, 90.633, and 90.651(c) of the Commission’s Rules to License Use of Six Conventional 900 MHz Frequency Pairs for an Advanced Train Control System, 3 FCC Rcd 427, 427 ¶¶ 1-6 (1988). If this petition for a single geographic license is granted, AAR plans to issue sub-licenses to the individual railroads who use ATCS/PTC while it maintains a computerized database of all site-specific information pertaining to such sub-licenses. Under AAR’s proposal, the FCC and FCC-certified frequency coordinators will have access to the AAR database via the Internet. In support of its request, AAR notes that the Canadian government recently adopted the same approach to licensing the six 900 MHz channel pairs that are used for ATCS/PTC when it issued a single nationwide, geographic area license to the Railway Association of Canada.

AAR states that grant of its petition is in the public interest because it will (1) streamline the Commission’s licensing process; (2) provide AAR with needed flexibility when choosing where to deploy and site future base stations; (3) promote full spectrum utilization by allowing the six channel pairs to be fully accessed by non-railroad users who operate outside the boundary of the single geographic license; (4) conform the United States licensing approach with the recently adopted approach of the Canadian Government; and (5) ensure non-interference with the railroads’ safety-critical communications data links.

The full text of the petition, comments and reply comments will be available for inspection and duplication during regular business hours in the Reference Information Center (RIC) of the Consumer Information Bureau (CIB), Federal Communications Commission, 445 12th Street, S.W., Room CY-A257, Washington, D.C. 20554. Copies may also be obtained from ITS. For further information regarding the public reference file for this petition, contact Maria Ringold, Chief, Wireless Branch, RIC, [phone].

Because of the policy implications and potential impact of this proceeding on persons not parties to this petition, we believe it would be in the public interest to treat this matter as a permit-but-disclose proceeding under the ex parte rules, see Sections 1.1200(a) and 1.1206 of the Commission’s Rules, 47 C.F.R. § 1.1200(a), 1.1206, rather than a restricted proceeding under Section 1.1208 of the Commission’s Rules, 47 C.F.R. § 1.1208. Therefore, any ex parte presentations that are made with respect to the issues involved in the subject petition, subsequent to the release of this Public Notice, will be permissible but must be disclosed in accordance with the requirements of Section 1.1206(b) of the Commission’s Rules, 47 C.F.R. § 1.1206(b).

For further information, contact Keith Fickner of the Policy and Rules Branch, Public Safety and Private Wireless Division of the Wireless Telecommunications Bureau at [phone], TTY [phone], or via e-mail to [e-mail].

By the Chief, Public Safety and Private Wireless Division, Wireless Telecommunications Bureau.

- FCC -
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/Public_Notices/2000/da001171.doc

[Anonymous]

So where will the 160.215 to 161.565 MHZ be moved to? Allan.

[zardoz]

I had read last year (but could not find where to quote or refer to) was that instead of having the frequencies separated by .015mhz as they are now, they are going to allocate new frequenies, squeezed together and separated by only .005mhz.

So the next frequency up from 160.215 will become 160.220 instead of 160.230. I cannot remember if these new frequency allocations are strictly for railroad use, or whether the spectrum usage is going to get mixed.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

I had read last year (but could not find where to quote or refer to) was that instead of having the frequencies separated by .015mhz as they are now, they are going to allocate new frequenies, squeezed together and separated by only .005mhz.

So the next frequency up from 160.215 will become 160.220 instead of 160.230. I cannot remember if these new frequency allocations are strictly for railroad use, or whether the spectrum usage is going to get mixed.

The topic is being discussed: http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/tpr/2003/its_p/railroad_plan.pdf, but there are reservations, as you can see.

I think the narrowband will be going from .015Khz to .0075Khz. Couldn't find any references.

[doghouse]

Allen, that picture you post is great. Where did you take it?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by doghouse

Allen, that picture you post is great. Where did you take it?

It's not mine. I tested it but never took it off.

[jeffhergert]

Is this related to the switch from analog to digital radio equipment that's supposed to happen sometime in the near future?
Jeff

[DPD1]

There's a lot of confusion on this... The doc posted above is mainly talking about ATCS, and that is different from voice. Voice is not moving to 900... It's basically staying where it is, but there is an FCC mandate to compress it and add more channels. This automatically means it has to be digital, because of the channel spacing to accompli***hat. When exactly this will happen for sure is unknown. They have a date set, but they also had dates set for the TV re-farming, and that has been broken numerous times. Some digital has been started in a few select areas, but only for support type activity, not actual road comms.

Personally, I think it's a huge boondoggle pushed by comm industry lobbyists. They basically want to spend untold millions to gain what amounts to an extra 1 1/2 MHz... But what do I know.

At any rate, the proposed channel plan is listed on the RR Frequency page of my site below.

Dave
http://www.dpdproductions.com
- Featuring the TrainTenna RR Scanner Antennas -

[Anonymous]

Hey Dave. Thanks for the help. I see the newer Frequencys are going to be very close to the same as now. So the best thing for a Railfan to do is to Program in the NEW Frequencys in to their Scanners right? At the same time still use the older Frequencys?
Allan.

[DPD1]

If you want to, you could use a 7.5 step. Some older radios might just automatically round it off and you would hear them anyway. I don't know how much use these new channels will ever get in analog though, because the addition of channels is mainly for the ultimate digital plan that will be put in place. The last plan the FCC put out, called for them to go full digital by 2013 with 12.5 kHz technology, and they would take the existing channels (old and new) and create a nationwide system that has 80 trunked pairs, 5 non trunked pairs, and 11 simplex channels. I believe the standard will be APCO 25 (TIA-102).

So for now, I doubt much will be on those new ones, but you can try. When/if all this does happen, I'm sure there will be ways to listen. Though it will never be the same as the good old analog days. Probably won't work as well either, but that seems to be the trend in communications now.

Dave
http://www.dpdproductions.com
- Featuring the TrainTenna RR Scanner Antennas -

[tree68]

Thanks for the post, Dave - I knew someone would have them.

You're right about the digital side - it's starting to crop up in the emergency services world as well, although primarily in trunking.

Either way, we're talking new radios, which won't be cheap. For scanning, my RS Pro-71 didn't like the new channels, nor did my RS trunking scanner. Never mind the digital angle.

[Anonymous]

Thank you guys very much for the information. As for my Scanner. I monitor the UP on Channel 4242 and it does Scan the middle in between Ch42 and Ch43. So im safe there. Even though im not going to going installing these new Frequencys just yet. God I hate new Tecnolalgy. Allan.

[karldotcom]

http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=TRSDB&sid=118

I believe the trunked demonstration project is still up and running in Oregon, although those dont look like the new narrow frequencies.

[karldotcom]

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/utilities/AAR_files/ExhibitB.htm

the frequencies that the AAR agreed to are listed at this site....

[Anonymous]

So when do the new ones go into effect? I have already programed them into my Scanner,I just haven't put in the Channels #'s yet. Allan.

[n9jig]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan

So where will the 160.215 to 161.565 MHZ be moved to? Allan.

Basically what is happening is the FCC has split the channels here from 15 KHz. apart (160.215, 160.230, 160.245...) to 7.5 KHz. apart (160.2150, 160.2225, 160.2300, 160.2375...). This adds channels inbetween the existing channels.

While this is all well and good there are some issues:

1) In order to use the new channels most railroads are going to have to replace thier existing radios with new ones capable of using the new channels and the narrower bandwidths they require.

2) Using the new channels introduce the possiblity of interference to existing users of the adjacent channels.

Eventually all the radios will need to be replaced anyway, as the existing channels will be required to be used with narrower bandwidths as well. In addition, there is discussion of eventually going to trunked, digital or both, these also require new radios.

What does this mean to scanner listeners?

Well, your existing scanner may already be capable of programming the new "in-between" channels. Even if it doesn't you can program it with the actual freqs, and let it round itself off to the nearest channel it is capable of. Chances are you won't notice the difference.

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan

So when do the new ones go into effect? I have already programed them into my Scanner,I just haven't put in the Channels #'s yet. Allan.

Most likely anything on the split channels will be digital so your scanner will need to be capable of receiving digital transmissions. The changes will be gradual, I doubt the railroads could afford the huge capital investment at one time.

Probably digital will make it's way into fixed area yard services first where there is high congestion and crosstalk between channels. For example carmen that work on inbound and outbound trains, never leave their channel and never talk to anyone except themselves and their foreman can convert to digital on a specific day after the digital base station is in place. Yard jobs that never leave the yard could do likewise.

Road engines and base stations will either need radios capable of both digital and analog or a separate radio for each system. Any way they decide to go is a huge capital investment so it will be performed in stages.

One note on the TV refarming issue mentioned in an earlier post. The reason the cutover date has been pushed back so many times is the receiver manufacturers did not start serious manufacturing and marketing of reasonably priced HDTV receivers in quantity until last year. The broadcasters did their part and have been transmitting HDTV to a very few receivers for years. Believe me we would love to turn off those analog transmitters and save $12,000.00 per month in electricity plus the high cost of maintaining the analog transmission system. When the analog transmitters are turned off then the channel 2 through 6 band returns to the FCC for re-assignment by auction to other services.

In the case of the railroad frequencies no bandwidth is being returned for reassignment through auction to another service so I fail to see a need for any deadline date from the FCC. This change doubles the channel availability in the same bandwidth if new techology is employed and allows railroads to proceed at a pace they choose.