"Whiskers", seniority, and etc....

[JimValle]

Everyone is arguing details or sliding into union versus anti-union rhetoric. Let's look at the big picture. Railroading is a most unusual occupation and it's labor arrangements reflect a lot of chronic instability in the railroad environment. First the unions. It's an axiom that the industries that had the most abusive labor practices in the past have the most bloody-minded unions in the present. Railroads were the first real industry in the United States and have the longest history or labor relations. Working conditions, hours of service, safety problems and management arrogance all started out bad and only got better under external pressure which includes the unions, the government, public opinion and insurance companies. As far as the seniority system is concerned, it has the virtue of being transparent. Anything else would be rife with abuse and sour feelings. As for the job itself, trains run 24/7/365 plus leap year. Traffic fluctuates with economic conditions, the seasons, holidays, war and peace and a host of other factors. The extra board evolved to meet these demands. It simply takes a certain kind of person to cope with the irregularity and the younger guys have more stamina. And, then there's hiring practices. The old norm was that railroads only hired the relatives of their employees. You had to be a "son of the railroad" which meant you came from a select group and already knew about the job and what it was like before you ever got it.
Now they call that "invidious discrimination" and the railroads have to make up for it by hiring women and minorities. This brings in folks who are much more likely to be upset by what they find on the job. They think there's got to be a better way. If I knew what that was, I'd be rich and famous!

[Tilden]

Even though I've always been "non-Union" and usually a member of the dreaded "Management", I've got to agree with the Seniority argument. In jobs/professions where most of the work specific knowledge is learned "on the job", experience is competence. The more experienced/senior person simply knows the job better. Doesn't mean they won't ever do anything wrong, but normally they will perform to high standards. And, at one time they weren't senior and had to pay their dues, taking "the jobs nobody wants."

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bawbyk

I was thinking about taking a night course at the community college on effecient switching tech. Can you direct me there.
C'mon man this ain't Wal Mart! Only kiss-asses worry about best qualified crap. 9 outta 10 times, the person with the most time is better qualified.
I take it you are non-union........figures

9 times out of 10 the person who uses that kind of logic is the type of person who is not interested in becoming better because they have the job and don't care....

I worry about the best-qualified every time I go to a Doctor, Dentist or call a repair person

[edblysard]

Murphy...
Keep in mind the way and the reason the trade unions came into existence.
They are, by nature, socialist groups, no one person ends up "higher" in rank than another...we all call each other "brother" you get the point.

Here is something not mention yet...the seniority system is not the result of the carriers decision, but is rather part of the labor agreement requested by the unions.
After all, who can judge which person is the better conductor, engineer...there isn’t any difference in pay grades among class, I earn the same amount as a guy hired last year...he holds the same title as I do...so who chooses which person is "better qualified" to hold a certain job?

Left up to the carriers as to who works what job, you can bet the suck ups would have the gravy jobs...and if it really was up to the carriers, there would be no distinction between any of us, we all, engineers and conductors, would be cross trained in each others craft, then dumped into a system wide pool service/extra board, and do away with any one man "holding down" any particular job.

Because each person in that craft receives the exact same training as any other person, there is no real way to decide who is better qualified for any job, other than the personality contest....there isn’t a conductor grade 1, grade 2 or 3...any more than there are different grades of locomotive engineers...they all have to follow the same rules, and function in like manner...every conductors job is the same job, requires the same skills, and the same function...I can teach anyone to be a switchman(yard man for you class one guys)...I cant teach him how to be a really good switchman, but I can equip him with the same basic skills and knowledge as I have...getting good at it takes practice...but I am no more "qualified" than the next switchman...there is no continuing education classes for railroaders beyond rules class and rules recertification’s.

So the unions chose the only real method left to reward the more "skilled"...on the assumption that the longer you stuck around, the better you would get...not really true, but they had no other way to reward long time members.
The thinking is that you have put in your time, so you should be able to hold the "better" jobs, as we are all equal in skill.

And the better job might not be the cushy yard job that gets 2 hour quits every day...some of the old heads like the "money jobs", those that run 12 hours with deadhead pay...you would be surprised how much money some of them make at it.
And you find that the guys who like that tend to be the same age group, with the same amount of seniority...we tend to clump together in that way...all of the guys on the trick I work are within 1 year of my age, and all are from the same two hire classes...so all the yardmen here are the same basic seniority group.

Ed

[BaltACD]

One thing you find in a craft where 'all jobs are the same', is that all jobs are not the same. Each job has it's own uniqueness and some of the things that make a particular job unique will attract some in the craft and repel others in the came craft. Not all jobs are equally attracive to everyone on a particular senority district.

[edblysard]

True...not all of "the jobs that are the same", are the same...some are more fun...lead switching attracts people like me, road jobs don’t appeal to me at all.
I enjoy the puzzle of switching, you might not....but on paper...we are "the same" as far as the carriers are concerned.

But it still boils down to not having any other way to make any form of objective decision on who gets what job...I think the seniority system was, and still is the only workable alternative to "political" appointment or favoritism.

Ed

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

True...not all of "the jobs that are the same", are the same...some are more fun...lead switching attracts people like me, road jobs don’t appeal to me at all.
I enjoy the puzzle of switching, you might not....but on paper...we are "the same" as far as the carriers are concerned.

But it still boils down to not having any other way to make any form of objective decision on who gets what job...I think the seniority system was, and still is the only workable alternative to "political" appointment or favoritism.

Ed

I fully agree.

[Eric Stuart]

Interesting how people in a society can assume THEIR way must be best.

In the UK, industry was crippled by a slavish following of seniority in craft unions.

Of course, if everybody was the same, one could assume that the bloke (or lady!) with the most seniority is the best qualified, but it ain't necessarily so!
Some people plateau in their learning; some get lazy and say, "who cares; I'll get the job, anyway" (yes; there are people like that!!!!). No, ability should be the determinant, which should inlude a review of seniority. And what about willingness to a good job. I know I overtook in ability many of those who had been in my craft longer, but, until the rules were changed, I was ham-strung by seniority. Sorry if that sounds proud, but it is the truth!

[ValleyX]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Eric Stuart

Interesting how people in a society can assume THEIR way must be best.

In the UK, industry was crippled by a slavish following of seniority in craft unions.
but, until the rules were changed, I was ham-strung by seniority. Sorry if that sounds proud, but it is the truth!

Was the seniority system thrown out completely or was it modified? If modified, how was it done? How was the system crippled before, are we talking in terms of excess employees or what, exactly?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Eric Stuart

Interesting how people in a society can assume THEIR way must be best.

In the UK, industry was crippled by a slavish following of seniority in craft unions.

Of course, if everybody was the same, one could assume that the bloke (or lady!) with the most seniority is the best qualified, but it ain't necessarily so!
Some people plateau in their learning; some get lazy and say, "who cares; I'll get the job, anyway" (yes; there are people like that!!!!). No, ability should be the determinant, which should inlude a review of seniority. And what about willingness to a good job. I know I overtook in ability many of those who had been in my craft longer, but, until the rules were changed, I was ham-strung by seniority. Sorry if that sounds proud, but it is the truth!

Yes, it is interesting how people in society assume their way is better. Usually it is the Brits doing so. BTW which is the most common locomotive manufacturer over there? Is it Tyco or Lionel?

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Eric Stuart

Some people plateau in their learning; some get lazy and say, "who cares; I'll get the job, anyway" (yes; there are people like that!!!!).

This seems to be where a lot of the seniority issue centers - "everyone" knows "somebody" who fits the above description and who thus held back someone who was clearly better qualified. And without a doubt it does happen.

I'm neither pro- nor anti-union. I figure they exist for a reason (although I've seen some examples where the union seemed more interested in getting established in a business than the employees were in forming a union). Many of the work rules we take for granted today, even in non-union areas, are the result of the union movement. Bad apples eventually get culled and life goes on. Unless there is a better way to handle the situation, seniority seems to offer a sound basis on which to operate.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Eric StuartIn the UK, industry was crippled by a slavish following of seniority in craft unions.

While I can't prove the point otherwise, one would have to wonder if there weren't larger issues here. (Rhetorical question) Why weren't the senior workers producing?

[Anonymous]

Here's another thought. The employee with 30 years makes the same wage as one
with 5 years.

[Murphy Siding]

How does "bidding for a job" work?

[edblysard]

Actually, you right, in a way...but anyone hired before the 1985 contract makes more than I do.
I hired out in 97.
Arbitraries, away from home terminal pay, short hand pay, air pay, travel pay...all the "perks" that made railroading a well paid blue collar job went away with that contract.
Protected men, those hired before 1985, get all the perks, including a form of profit sharing, know as productivity pay...for every trip a protected man goes out on, the carriers put a specific amount into a fund...at the end of the year, they divide the total amount by every protected man trip, and pay each protected man that amount.

So the more the protected men get out, the bigger the end of year productivity pay check is.
They even get paid extra for working with an un-protected man...that, along with all the arbitraries, can add up to almost doubling their base daily pay per trip.

An example...
On my railroad, the PTRA, the "home" terminal is North Yard.
Any job that goes on duty at any of our other yards will qualify a "protected" man for away from home terminal pay...which is why you dont see any old head holding a job that goes on duty at North Yard.

So an old head uses his seniority to bid and hold a job at Pasadena yard, and he gets the extra $28.00 just for walking on property there, instead of North Yard.
Add in the $5.00 a day for short hand pay, and the air pay, (where he has to lace up air hoses more than the one from the locomotive to the first car), the travel pay, and his percent of the productivity fund...he can make an additional $60.00 to $70.00 per day...if he is real good at the rules shark game, he can get paid for working through his meal period, that’s an additional hours pay...second meal period, (hour and a half pay) and OT, plus deadhead...
They can make quite a good living this way.

Except for the meal periods, OT and deadhead pay, none of this applies to the folks hired after 1985.


Ed

[jeffhergert]

Let's not forget that seniority also determines when you get vacation.
Bidding is applying for a vacant or a new position. Where I work, we can place bids by computer terminal or call the bulletin clerk/bid recorder for our area. By phone you leave your name, soc security number, date and time bid is placed, and bulletin number(s) you are bidding on the recorder if you don't get the actual clerk. By computer you use your personal screen and enter the board, pool turn or any for x board or standing bid, position (engr, condr, etc), date bid is effective and date you want your bid to be deleted, and bulletin number or standing bid. In years past you would write your bid on paper and submit it.
You can bid specific bulletined jobs or place standing bids for jobs that may become vacant. In our area, new jobs (a new turn added into a pool/board) are always bulletined, some for 5 days, some for 48 hours. Jobs that are vacated (an exsisting turn that someone gave up) may not be bulletined if there are standing bids for that specific pool/board. If no standing bids, the job is bulletined. If no bidders for new or vacated jobs, the youngest seniority wise in the terminal can be forced. Sometimes the youngest on the district may be forced to jobs at other terminals.
Jeff

[Eric Stuart]

My comments seem to have caused respopnses, which is good!!
For some simple selection of jobs - ie, the best paid, etc - seniority is one way of deciding.
But, especially for promotion, other items like quality of woork should be considered. If not, good workers can see their prospects hindered by poor workers just hanging on by being senior. That squashes enterprise.
as to management: I recommend a book called "The Peter Principle" to show how daft management processes can stifle busnisses.
UK managements were hog-tied by trades unions for years, because they were afraid of the cost of strikes. Eventually, the changes in technology (eg, dockers and the introduction of containers) helped provoke a face-off and the introduction of new systems.

[ValleyX]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Eric Stuart

My comments seem to have caused respopnses, which is good!!
For some simple selection of jobs - ie, the best paid, etc - seniority is one way of deciding.
But, especially for promotion, other items like quality of woork should be considered. If not, good workers can see their prospects hindered by poor workers just hanging on by being senior.

So, we're talking about management jobs not being governed by seniority? I think those of us over here are talking about trainmen and enginemen work being governed by seniority, as well as the clerical forces, car inspectors, maintenance of way, etc.

[Eric Stuart]

No; my comments cover ALL jobs.
Would you make the oldest politician automatically President of the US, just because he had been a politician the longest?!?! On second thoughts, it would save a lot of campaigning and other expensive raz-ma-taz, so I suppose there's a lot to be said for it!!!!!!!!!
I accept that for things like holiday allocations and such-like, seniority is one way of selection, but my experience is that, if you don't include other criteria, you get dead-wood in the system and you stifle initiative and good workers who deserve a chance.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Gee, just because you have been on the job longer than me you get the better job, probably the easier job and all the benefits that go along with it, what ever happened to to the concept of the best qualified person would get a certain position, oh, that might mean someone might have to actually do the best job or take a night course or work hard, what kind of a concept is that??? my! my! we can't have that now can we?? Just being at work longer doesn't really mean you are the one that's qualified for a certain position.

It sure does.

I was thinking about taking a night course at the community college on effecient switching tech. Can you direct me there.
C'mon man this ain't Wal Mart! Only kiss-asses worry about best qualified crap. 9 outta 10 times, the person with the most time is better qualified.
I take it you are non-union........figures

[ValleyX]

In other words, very simply, if I work long enough and stand for a preferred job, say a prime local job but the company thinks that John Doe, who hired out last year and has shot up like a meteor, would do a better job, then my time on the railroad would mean nothing. Hmmm. I see a lot of morale boosting there and a lot of disharmony but, I must say, I've got some seniority.

[Anonymous]

Coming from a management type, I would say that seniority seems to be the most equitable method of handling JOB ASSIGNMENTS - which, in railroading at the operating level, determines income.

I've not seen anyone here claim that there is any difference in the skill level needed operate a local versus a chain gang through freight. If any qualified road engineer/conductor can handle any given assignent, why should an assignment require any special ability?

Please don't mistake this for a glib put-down - anybody who can work subject to call on a 24/7 basis and then move a 10,000 ton train containing millions of dollars in customer's shipments in a safe and efficient manner has my unqualified respect.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Actually, you right, in a way...but anyone hired before the 1985 contract makes more than I do.
I hired out in 97.
Arbitraries, away from home terminal pay, short hand pay, air pay, travel pay...all the "perks" that made railroading a well paid blue collar job went away with that contract.
Protected men, those hired before 1985, get all the perks, including a form of profit sharing, know as productivity pay...for every trip a protected man goes out on, the carriers put a specific amount into a fund...at the end of the year, they divide the total amount by every protected man trip, and pay each protected man that amount.

So the more the protected men get out, the bigger the end of year productivity pay check is.
They even get paid extra for working with an un-protected man...that, along with all the arbitraries, can add up to almost doubling their base daily pay per trip.

An example...
On my railroad, the PTRA, the "home" terminal is North Yard.
Any job that goes on duty at any of our other yards will qualify a "protected" man for away from home terminal pay...which is why you dont see any old head holding a job that goes on duty at North Yard.

So an old head uses his seniority to bid and hold a job at Pasadena yard, and he gets the extra $28.00 just for walking on property there, instead of North Yard.
Add in the $5.00 a day for short hand pay, and the air pay, (where he has to lace up air hoses more than the one from the locomotive to the first car), the travel pay, and his percent of the productivity fund...he can make an additional $60.00 to $70.00 per day...if he is real good at the rules shark game, he can get paid for working through his meal period, that’s an additional hours pay...second meal period, (hour and a half pay) and OT, plus deadhead...
They can make quite a good living this way.

Except for the meal periods, OT and deadhead pay, none of this applies to the folks hired after 1985.


Ed

that is true..but dont forget that newest labor agreement contract that was put into affect i think it was 2 years ago now... under the UTU agreement..and also under the newest BLE (becouse it wasnt BLET when this last contract was sighned) sets up the trip rate...which gets ride of all the arbitaries that the pre-86ers get...and replaces them with the highter milage rates for pool turns... so long IDT..FTD....as well as a few other arbitaries... but the sad part is... the trip rate was atculy a step backwards..insted of trying to bring the post 86ers up to the pre 86ers...it brought the the old heads down to the new hire levels of pay...
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Gee, just because you have been on the job longer than me you get the better job, probably the easier job and all the benefits that go along with it, what ever happened to to the concept of the best qualified person would get a certain position, oh, that might mean someone might have to actually do the best job or take a night course or work hard, what kind of a concept is that??? my! my! we can't have that now can we?? Just being at work longer doesn't really mean you are the one that's qualified for a certain position.

why dont you hire out and become a manager on the RR. you sound like you would make a great one.