A Bunch of Questions (Some for Techies, One for the Magazine Guys)

[Anonymous]

Dear everybody,
Hello, I have a number of questions. Any of them you could help me out with would be appreciated.
1.) (For the magazine guys) Suppose you have a person named Ms. Smith, and she takes a picture. Later, she gets married and becomes Mrs. Jones, and later submits the above named picture to a magazine. If you were unable to ask her preferance on the matter, how would you write the photo-credit? For example, would you write "Ms. Smith," "Mrs. Jones," "Ms. Smith, collection of Mrs. Jones," etc.

2.) Did any steam locomotives have connections for the independant brake from locomotive to locomotive, or is that strictly on diesels?

3.) Why are steam locomotives' couplers usually rigidly attached to the frame (i.e. no sprigs for absorbing shock, only a pin), or at most only sprung on the rear?

4.) How would the above fact affect train handling on a light engine move of a number of steam locomotives?

5.) If a shipper loads freight cars at a variable frequency, or requires them at non-constant intervals, how does the shipper inform the railroad that it needs an empty freight car or that it has one to send out?

6.) What voltage do traditional signal batteries run at?

7.) While along BNSF's Clovis Subdivision in Abo Canyon, New Mexico, I saw numerous propane tanks along the right of way, near signals. Are they for electricity generation or what?

8.) This is how I understand a freight car moving across the country. Please correct anything that is wrong: The car is included on the switch list of a switch crew to be picked up. The yard switch crew has another list which tells them which train to put this car on. The paperwork is carried on the train, and at each yard where switching is required, a switch list is made up including this car. If the paperwork is lost, the waybill on the car tells where it's from, where it's going, and what it's carrying.

9.) If a UP boxcar is used to haul a load from say Omaha to New York via CSX, once it's empty, will CSX use that box car for a loaded trip back from New York, or will it just be sent back empty to UP. If the latter, how do they decide where on the UP to send the boxcar to? Does CSX just pick a convenient connection point and say "here it is"?

10.) Why is it so important that employees not divulge signal indications over the radio? Is it just to keep the chatter down?

11.) What is the difference between a waybill and a bill of lading?

12.) Back in the days of cabooses, and I assume still today, what kind of paperwork would the conductor have to do, assuming no delays and no accidents?

13.) Why are there two air brake connection hoses for the independant brake from unit to unit? Would not one hose be sufficient?

14.) Would somebody please be so good as to explain the basics of two-hose/graduated release braking systems to me?

15.) What does the dead-in-tow engine feature on the brake system do? Specifically, why couldn't you just use the engine's normal braking system, with the stand cut-out, in the middle of the train?

I realize that I'm asking a lot of questions here, but any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Gratefully,
Daniel Parks

[richardy]

7 is probably switch heaters.

[dknelson]

As for three I suspect the reason is that that the coupler on the tender needs to be the strongest coupler on the train and that shock absorbing devices most likely represent a point of weakness or potential breakage. Also cost savings. And most railroads don't care how comfortable the crew is anyway :)

This is all speculation by me by the way.
Dave Nelson

[Mookie]

The only one I could have answered was # 7 and Richard beat me to it.

[fuzzybroken]

#7 switch heaters in New Mexico? Does it really get that cold down there? I would lean more towards Daniel's explanation, the propane probably powers a small generator for electricity for the signals. Probably cheaper than running wires out there.

On a related note, this time involving switch heaters, I noticed that CP's location of "Oakwood" in Caledonia, WI, has a gas meter for their switch heaters!

[Leon Silverman]

Number 3 - Hydracushion frames (shock-absorbing couplers) is post steam-engine era technology. None of the rolling stock produced during the steam era had shock-absorbing couplers to my knowlege. Consequently, the engines would not have it either.

[Anonymous]

#10: Maybe not where you guys are. Calling out signals on the radio is common on several lines I've been to. Some CSX and ex-Conrail routes, BNSF, etc. Not all routes, just some. No "uncertainty" involved because they call out their train ID and direction (engine number, not train symbol) and the location of the signal they're reading.

[edblysard]

To add to Mark's comments.

#5, and #8, to a degree....On my railroad, the PTRA, customers go on line, and order empties over a computer system, which our clerks check constantly...and depending on which of our member lines that customer ships on, our clerks will rustle up the cars.
Customers also send in request to pull cars from their facility, and special spotting and movement instructions, lading and billing instructions, all on line.
Faster and cheaper than calling on the phone, and much more accurate.
I would suspect a lot of other roads use a system like this.

With the AEI system, car tracking is simple, and any instructions that change in route, say a car is bad ordered and set out, or a change in destination happens, the info is entered into a computer system, and the next yard the train enters, the info is printed up on a new or revised train sheet for the conductor, who will call into the yardmaster or trainmaster when he yards his train.

All railroads share this info; their computers are linked just for this very reason.

Carl S can find you just about any car on any road, and tell you what’s inside, and where it is headed, from his desk at his job.

The conductor will also call in his feedback, telling the clerks or yardmaster about any changes that happened in route, such as having to set out a bad order car, any leakers, (you would be amazed how much wheat can leak through a 1/8 gap in a hopper dump).
As to #8, the switch list for yard crews is generated from a master list, which is created from all the AEI scanners the train passed, and the one at the yard entrance.
The AEI system will list it in the sequence it last scanned, then all the yardmaster or chief clerk has to do is print up a series of switch lists from their computer...said list tells me what order the cars are in, from front to rear, reporting marks, car type(box car, tank, flat) load or empty, hazmat or high wide shiftable info, what track to switch it to, and the final destination, right down to precise spot in the customers plant the car goes to.

I haven’t seen a hand written switch list in a long time, although we do keep a pad or two on hand, for the very rare occasion the computer system goes down and we hand write a list.

#10.
I can use the radio to inform my crew, and my crew only, of a signal aspect.
Think about having to shove back in CTC or ABS...Someone has to ride the point of the shove and be the eyes for the engineer...although in CTC, with the permission of the dispatcher, you can make certain reverse moves between control points.
But I can not inform any other crew of the aspect or indication of a signal they wi***o use...doing so make me responsible for anything that happens.

It isn’t so much that you are divulging some secret info over the radio; it is more who you are giving that info to, and for what purpose.

Some railroads require their crews to announce signal aspects back to the dispatcher on the radio, as a confirmation tool.

I can't tell an opposing train I am passing that he has a green just around the bend, because by the time he gets there, things might have changed, and it is now a red, but he though it was a green, so he is going way too fast to stop, blows the signal, gets fired, (along with me) and if he is lucky, there is no train wreck that day.


Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill

QUOTE: 10.) Why is it so important that employees not divulge signal indications over the radio? Is it just to keep the chatter down?

No. It's because it's highly unsafe. It adds uncertainty. Which signal is someone looking at? Who are they talking to? Did they see it correctly? The operating rules require the crew who TAKES the signal to SEE the signal. Besides, if you are the person observing the signal aspect and telling someone else the indication, and they do something wrong, you're now sharing the liability.

Mark, perhaps I am confused, but that explanation falls in conflict with (my understanding, anyway) of Norfolk Southern's operating rule 34 which states in part:


A crew member on the controlling locomotive will communicate by radio
the name and location of each signal affecting his movement as soon as the
signal becomes visible.
If there are crew members on trailing units and/or caboose they will
acknowledge the transmission, repeating the information to crew
member(s) on the controlling locomotive.

Specific to the finding of fault of Norfolk Southern crew in the wreck summarized at

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1999/RAR9902.pdf the above text was extracted from page 16 of the NTSB accident report with follow up discussion on pages 17 and 25

Granted, the entire accident ordeal, complete with sleeping engineer and conductor while a student engineer operated the train under instruction to violate the official rules makes for a surreal scenario, but the story seems to say that NS does expect signal aspects, numbers, and location to be radioed to the dispatcher


Am I missing something?

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill

QUOTE: Originally posted by fuzzybroken

#7 switch heaters in New Mexico? Does it really get that cold down there? I would lean more towards Daniel's explanation, the propane probably powers a small generator for electricity for the signals. Probably cheaper than running wires out there.

On a related note, this time involving switch heaters, I noticed that CP's location of "Oakwood" in Caledonia, WI, has a gas meter for their switch heaters!

Yes, it REALLY does get that cold there. You're well above 5000 feet in altitude. I'm not aware of any U.S. railway using propane-fired electrical generators. I've never seen them. I have seen thousands (literally) of propane-fired switch heaters; they're very common in the U.S.

Signal systems with extremely rare exception are powered off commercial lines. Railroads originally used a lot of primary battery signal systems (80 years ago!) but converted to secondary battery (utility power) as quickly as possible to cut maintenance costs. Check out the article on Santa Fe signaling in Trains of a few years ago for details on this.

MWH

From one who staked curves knee deep in snow down there: YES IT GETS THAT COLD! ...and the bigger problem in Abo is ICE causing split point gaps. When the cold and humidity comes up from the south (known in Colorado as an "Albuquerque Low"), the snow really dumps (3-5 inches per hour).[;)]

[oltmannd]

Daniel asked:


"13.) Why are there two air brake connection hoses for the independant brake from unit to unit? Would not one hose be sufficient?

14.) Would somebody please be so good as to explain the basics of two-hose/graduated release braking systems to me?

15.) What does the dead-in-tow engine feature on the brake system do? Specifically, why couldn't you just use the engine's normal braking system, with the stand cut-out, in the middle of the train?"

13. There are duplicate sets of hose connections on each side of the end sheet so you can MU either end of a locomotive w/o having hoses crossover. Just one hose per feature is needed

14. Graduated release and the two hoses on a passenger train are unrelated. The second hose is for communicating to the cab from the train. Graduated release lets the engineer reduce the braking cylinder pressure by increasing the brake pipe pressure in steps.

15. The dead engine valve allows a loco to act like a frt car. Otherwise, it'll act like a locomotive and depend on those MU air hoses to control the brakes.

I'm a bit rusty at this stuff. Maybe someone else can clarify or amplify.

[Clutch Cargo]

I thought this was finally a question for engineers on this board.
Sorry.

Kurt

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill

[
What you are observing is the operation of that rule. Most railroads have a rule supplemental to GCOR or NORAC, etc., such as NS #34, that requires train crews to announce all or certain signal aspects or indications to EACH OTHER, but NEVER to someone else. The supplemental rule may state that this is to be done by radio, or verbally (both sides of the locomotive cab), or both. The reason this is done AMONG THE CREW is so that the crew agrees they are all seeing the same thing,
MWH

That makes sense, thanks...

So then I guess where it states- "The student engineer radioed to the dispatcher every signal that he encountered up to signal 111, including the clear indication at the immediately preceding signal," - (page 25) The student was actually doing something he, shouldn't have been.

[richardy]

6 has been generally 12 volts but there may be variations.

[richardy]

On the BNSF in this area a crewmember will call out "approach" and "approach medium" signals on the radio, the other crewmember does not acknowledge the communication on the radio. I have been close enough to some trains when this has happened to determine both crewmembers were in the cab of the lead unit and no one was visable in the other units. So if it is dangerous to call signals on the radio for other than the same crew, what are they doing?

[CShaveRR]

They are covering their own posteriors. If there's an accident, you can bet that recordings of prior radio transmissions will be brought into play. Yes, there's a rule that indications be called out now--some railroads (CSX? or at least parts of it) want you to call all of the signals. Others require anything less than a clear indication. Do it--that way they know that you saw the signal and understand what it means, and they'll have to hang you some other way. Cynical, I know, but that's what you get when you hang around real railroaders for any length of time.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

Daniel asked:


"13.) Why are there two air brake connection hoses for the independant brake from unit to unit? Would not one hose be sufficient?

14.) Would somebody please be so good as to explain the basics of two-hose/graduated release braking systems to me?

15.) What does the dead-in-tow engine feature on the brake system do? Specifically, why couldn't you just use the engine's normal braking system, with the stand cut-out, in the middle of the train?"

13. There are duplicate sets of hose connections on each side of the end sheet so you can MU either end of a locomotive w/o having hoses crossover. Just one hose per feature is needed

14. Graduated release and the two hoses on a passenger train are unrelated. The second hose is for communicating to the cab from the train. Graduated release lets the engineer reduce the braking cylinder pressure by increasing the brake pipe pressure in steps.

15. The dead engine valve allows a loco to act like a frt car. Otherwise, it'll act like a locomotive and depend on those MU air hoses to control the brakes.

I'm a bit rusty at this stuff. Maybe someone else can clarify or amplify.

Dear Oltmannd,
13.) I know why there are hoses on each side, but I saw two independant brake hoses (one for "application," one for "release") on each side of a locomotive (for a total of four), in addition to the main reservoir connection hoses. I know they were for the independant brake hoses because I asked the engineer.

14.) I know the MU and HEP cables, but I am pretty sure that there are two hoses on graduated release systems. I just don't understand why it wouldn't work with one hose.

15.) But what about a steam locomotive? MU doesn't come into play, and as best I can tell, the brakes should work just fine if the brake stand is cut out (think simple, like no. 6 brakes).

I have a new question:

16.) Back in timetable and train-order days, on lines that didn't use train-number (indicator) boards, how would the engineer waiting for a train at a siding know which locomotives had which trains? It would say on a train order, but what about scheduled runs?

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[jeaton]

Case in point on question 10. Sometime in the 1960's the engineer on a southbound Illinois Central freight in the fog asked the operator for the status of a signal controling diversion to track two and one from the end of a thrid main track. The operator reported that the signal was "clear". In fact the indication was for a positive stop. When the engineer was able to see the signal, he was not able to stop the train before fouling the number two northbound main and a northbound passenger train operating at track speed was not able to stop in time to avoid a head on collision. I don't recall the other casualties but the freight engineer did not leave his seat and was killed in the collision.

This is an illustraion of the reason why there is often a reduntancy in safety rules. The engineer violated rules by asking someone not on the train crew for the status of a signal and the interlocking plant operater violated rules by providing the information. Even if the operater had provided the correct information both would have been in violation. Had either one observed the rules the accident would not have happened.

Jay

[richardy]

Mark & CS: Thanks, that makes sense that they are speaking to the recorder because they also call their speed.

[tree68]

As an aside to the 'calling signals' discussion, my cab ride included return trips "long hood forward." At those times an additional crew member rode in the cab as "fireman" to watch the right side (obviously the engineer had the left). There were no signals to call, but they did call all crossings to each other - "Down and Clear." Nothing on the radio, though.

I regularly hear CSX crews calling signals on the Chicago Line when I'm near it. In dark territory they simply call control points.

[bnsfkline]

ARGH! To many questions!

[beaulieu]

Daniel asked:


"13.) Why are there two air brake connection hoses for the independant brake from unit to unit? Would not one hose be sufficient?

14.) Would somebody please be so good as to explain the basics of two-hose/graduated release braking systems to me?

15.) What does the dead-in-tow engine feature on the brake system do? Specifically, why couldn't you just use the engine's normal braking system, with the stand cut-out, in the middle of the train?"

13. There are duplicate sets of hose connections on each side of the end sheet so you can MU either end of a locomotive w/o having hoses crossover. Just one hose per feature is needed

14. Graduated release and the two hoses on a passenger train are unrelated. The second hose is for communicating to the cab from the train. Graduated release lets the engineer reduce the braking cylinder pressure by increasing the brake pipe pressure in steps.

15. The dead engine valve allows a loco to act like a frt car. Otherwise, it'll act like a locomotive and depend on those MU air hoses to control the brakes.

I'm a bit rusty at this stuff. Maybe someone else can clarify or amplify.

[zardoz]

The D.I.T feature on a locomotive allows it to be hauled like a freight car (albiet a very heavy one). The air used to actuate the locomotive brakes comes from the trainline, not the main reservoir (which is likely to be empty).

This permits the locomotive brakes to be applied by normal reductions in brake pipe pressure, as apposed to the application from the brake system of the locomotive. Remember, a locomotive's brakes are normally controlled by the air from the independent brake valve to the cylinders. A traincar's brakes work from the air from the auxiliary reservoir being sent to the brake cylinder via the triple-valve of each car, in response to a reduction in trainline pressure; there is no such valve on a locomotive.

The DIT feature bypasses most of the locomotive piping; otherwise, the tanks would fill from the trainline, causing a long time for a train's brake pipe pressure to fully charge after an application, especially an emergency application.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Clemente

#10: Maybe not where you guys are. Calling out signals on the radio is common on several lines I've been to. Some CSX and ex-Conrail routes, BNSF, etc. Not all routes, just some. No "uncertainty" involved because they call out their train ID and direction (engine number, not train symbol) and the location of the signal they're reading.

I think that you guys misintrepreted the jist of the rule. I can (required on some territories) call signals that pertain to my train. You cannot call out signals that do not pertain to your movement.