Dumb question? Why risk lives with underground coal mining in WV when you have plenty of coal in WY?

[jeaton]

Interesting article here.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/06/AR2006010602247.html

[mloik]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TerminalTower

If we really belive in capitilism,,,Then the efficiancys of western coal and alternitive fuels will be translated into ecommic prospertys elsewere in the economy such as computers and higher education

If we really believe in capitalism, we will start educating our youth. (Especially when it comes to spelling.)

[mackb4]

futuremodal.I have been around the eastern coalfiels and processing plants now for about 15 years.Even to use the low sulpher,higher btu coal,it in most cases has to be blended.By that it has to be dumped on the ground in piles(according to the class name,which a coal company and agent gives it to distingush it's btu rating) then mix it by dumping it into one pile that has been blended together.Then reloaded to train,barge or truck.Most blends are 2 way,some can be 3 or 4,depending on the exact specs.It takes the same process to blend mid/western coal.Then to transport it cost even more money.Our local newspaper just had these figures of surface and deep mining.Underground 33% and surface 67%.That's country wide.There is currently around 1,500 mines in the U.S. compared to almost 4,500 in the mid 80's.It also stated that there is around 130 new coal fired power plants on the drawing board for the U.S.Coal has about a 200 year supply left.That could be a low figure,because theres coal that's yet to be found in them there hills.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TerminalTower

If we really belive in capitilism,,,Then the efficiancys of western coal and alternitive fuels will be translated into ecommic prospertys elsewere in the economy such as computers and higher education

computers? higher education? i guess you never heard of out soursing of alot of computer Tech suport and IT programing industry to countrys that pay thier works a full dollor a week, while people that when to "higher edcucation" to do computer work here in the states now sit on unemployment while trying to find the ever dwindling number of jobs in that field for half the money they where making not even 5 years befor...
and if you dont mind... please..so i know for my own self....can you translate your statement into how alternitive fuels and PRB coal is going to genorate computer and higher enducation? and what do you mean by higher education? people going back to college? or layed off miners sweeping the floors of the classrooms at local colleges and universitys?
csx engineer

[paulstecyna21]

and what about coal that is in the appalachians of pennsylvania?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

For the record, it is technically cheaper to process strip-mined PRB coal into a higher BTU/low moisture product than it is to mine Eastern US underground coal. The reason is that PRB coals are so cheap to begin with relative to Eastern coals, that the added costs of processing PRB coals into higher value coal products is still less expensive than raw Eastern coals. The big problem with such synthetic coals is an inability to transport the product in regular coal gons due to spontaneous combustion of the product. If and when that problem is ever worked out, "value-added" PRB coal products will be less expensive per mmBtu than Appalachian coals.

That might be true at the mine head but it is hardly true when you factor in the delivery cost. My son works at a power plant in Ohio. The Wyoming coal is substantially more expensive on a per ton basis than is the local Ohio and West Virginia coal. When you consider per BTU the Wyoming coal is outrageously expensive. The PRB coal is only used to bring the total sulfer content down to legal limits. If it were not for the regulations, the power company would not bother with it. Additionally, the Wyoming coal very often is already on fire when it arrives at the power plant. The first thing the employees must do is spread it out and douse it with water. Only then can it be put into the feed bins. That simply adds more expense to the use of the Wyoming coal, which of course causes the electric rates to be just that much higher.

[mersenne6]

There is another aspect to the strip vs coal shaft issue and that is the impact on the environment. In addition to making the terrain a little lower, the act of stripping tears open the layer above the coal and then dumps it back. The problem with this disturbed layer of overburden is that now, when water percolates through it, you get mine acid drainage. With the moisture in the east the results are easy to see all through the Pennsylvania/Kentucky/WV region - bright reddish brown stream beds with a high pH level.
Interestingly enough the acid doesn't do anything to fish eggs, they will hatch just fine. The problem is that the acid kills off almost everything else so your hatchlings starve to death. Out west, with the drier climate, disturbed overburden doesn't get a chance to do what it does in the east.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Part of the problem here is that most people assume that all coal and crude oil is the same. The discussion here shows that many of us are aware of the difference between Eastern, Midwestern and PRB coal, but all too many people aren't.

[techguy57]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TerminalTower

The Economy will asorb them elsewhere.


If we really belive in capitilism,,,Then the efficiancys of western coal and alternitive fuels will be translated into ecommic prospertys elsewere in the economy such as computers and higher education

Tell that to the workers in places that have lost big business to foreign markets: RCA employees in Bloomington, IN. Motorola workers in Harvard, IL. Auto plant workers in Flint, MI and elsewhere. Steel mill workers in northern Indiana. Many of them lose their pensions, benefits, etc. And if you're 45-50 most employers aren't all that willing to bet the ranch that you'll be there for 20 years of service. They know you've already got one foot out the door to retirement (if you can afford it).

Mike

[oltmannd]

Back to the original question, it's all economics.

Most coal mined goes for making steam at powerplants.

A huge portion of the cost of steam coal is transportation. A few years back, Powder River coal cost about $4/ton at the mine mouth, but $20/ton delivered to GA. WV coal was about $10/ton at the mine mouth and $20 ton delivered to GA.

If you add in the costs to deal with "undesirables" of each type of coal - sulfur, ash, heat value, etc, it will determine the most economic source for the coal for that specific location and power plant.

[ndbprr]

Back to the original question there is a vast difference between Wyoming steaming coal and West Virginia Metallurgy coal. There is no coking operation that uses anything but West Virginia - western PA area coal. It is highly prized and Japan even uses coal from there. The Virginian and N&W hauled a lot of coal to Norfolk for shipment around the world.

[oltmannd]

Volume comparison for coal on NS
(1000 carloads)

Utility (steam) 341
Export (mostly met) 32
Metallurgical 36
Industrial (mostly for steam) 24

85% or so is for steam

[Anonymous]

Lets have a minute of solumn silence for the departed miners and their families My heart goes out to the families of these men in this time of sorrow.

Ten people killed in a mine? Sounds bad. How many people are killed on the highways every day? The number runs over 100 people who die in auto accidents per day! The mining disaster at Sago is tragic, but it is made worse by the fact of the news media feeding like a school of piranas. Would they be there filming the minors if they went to work and went home every day without any problems? The answer is NO! Good news does not sell papers. Tragedy sells. I have a degree in Mining Engineering from West Virginia University and have worked in the mines early in my career. Listening to the questions being asked by the media makes me want to laugh or cry. I do not know which to do. The media asks such stupid questions it is freightning. And to think our opinions on world subjects are being formed by the remarks of such idiots. Could the media atleast have a reporter on the scene who has a smattering of technical knowledge? Maybe then they would not seem so stupid most of the time.

Enough of my tirade on the media. Lets move on to better subjects.

Yes, Applachian coal has superior properties when compared to PRB coal. Unfortunately Applachian coal is high in sulphur, however, power plants in that region routinely place scrubbers on the power plants to remove 99.99% of the pollutants before they are vented to the atmosphere. The power plants are buying one form of energy (coal) and converting it to another (electricity). Newton said it all in that you cannot create energy, you can only change it from one form to another. Assuming that you need 1,000 kw hours of power. If a pound of Applachian coal has 14,520 BTU it would take approximately 1/4 pound of coal to generate this amount of electrical energy. Now lets suppose that we have PRB coal with an energy content of 9,500 BTU per pound. It would take approximately half again as much PRB coal to produce the same amount of electricity. I do not know the current prices of each coal, but the math is easy to work out where the break even point would be when transportation is figured in.

Many Applachian power plants have coal mines at the plant entrance. This is called mine to plant type of operation. Except for the cost of a short conveyor belt there are no transportation costs for this arrangement. Just look at what the Class 1s charge to move a ton of coal from the PRB to a power plant.

Power plants can be designed to handle any type of fuel. In Texas, Texas Utilities is building power plants that run on lignite, which is a grade lower than sub bituminous. It can be done. Putting the wrong coal into a power plant will not be the most effecient operation going. An oil field example (which is where I make my living) would be the refinery that Getty Oil built near Marcus Hook Pennsylvania. Getty had huge reserves of an undesirable heavy crude in the Neutral Zone of Kuwait. If you ran this crude through a normal refinery the yields of desirable products (read gasoline) would be very poor. Getty purpose built a refinery to handle this heavy crude and obtain good yieds from this crude. The same holds true for power plants. The problem is that the population density (and energy consumption) is in the east. In the PRB area the population is fairly scarce. Not much demand for energy there so it must be shipped.

As to safety much has been done over the last 50 years to make a coal mine a safer place to work. True, the severity rate of the mining industry (both soft and hardrock mining) is far higher than any other industry, but strides have been made. There was a time that miners did not even wear hard hats. Now they have loads of safety equipment. Times are improving, however, it is not perfect-yet.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mersenne6


There is another aspect to the strip vs coal shaft issue and that is the impact on the environment. In addition to making the terrain a little lower, the act of stripping tears open the layer above the coal and then dumps it back. The problem with this disturbed layer of overburden is that now, when water percolates through it, you get mine acid drainage. With the moisture in the east the results are easy to see all through the Pennsylvania/Kentucky/WV region - bright reddish brown stream beds with a high pH level.
Interestingly enough the acid doesn't do anything to fish eggs, they will hatch just fine. The problem is that the acid kills off almost everything else so your hatchlings starve to death. Out west, with the drier climate, disturbed overburden doesn't get a chance to do what it does in the east.

Make that bright reddish brown stream beds with a LOW pH level. Acid lowers the pH, Base (alkali) raises it.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rdganthracite

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

For the record, it is technically cheaper to process strip-mined PRB coal into a higher BTU/low moisture product than it is to mine Eastern US underground coal. The reason is that PRB coals are so cheap to begin with relative to Eastern coals, that the added costs of processing PRB coals into higher value coal products is still less expensive than raw Eastern coals. The big problem with such synthetic coals is an inability to transport the product in regular coal gons due to spontaneous combustion of the product. If and when that problem is ever worked out, "value-added" PRB coal products will be less expensive per mmBtu than Appalachian coals.

That might be true at the mine head but it is hardly true when you factor in the delivery cost. My son works at a power plant in Ohio. The Wyoming coal is substantially more expensive on a per ton basis than is the local Ohio and West Virginia coal. When you consider per BTU the Wyoming coal is outrageously expensive. The PRB coal is only used to bring the total sulfer content down to legal limits. If it were not for the regulations, the power company would not bother with it. Additionally, the Wyoming coal very often is already on fire when it arrives at the power plant. The first thing the employees must do is spread it out and douse it with water. Only then can it be put into the feed bins. That simply adds more expense to the use of the Wyoming coal, which of course causes the electric rates to be just that much higher.

Yes, I did address spontaneous combustion of syncoal, and I am aware that some lignites will combust if transported in open air gons. What is striking is the delivered cost of PRB coal to Eastern power plants vs the mine mouth cost. Transportation costs now constitute over half the total delivered cost, sometimes as much as 2/3 of the total cost. Whether the DM&E project will bring down some of this obscene profiteering remains to be seen.

So, if we can get true competitive rail rates for unit trains of Western coal and coal products, and if the syncoal folks can eliminate the problem of spontaneous combustion, it is possible that Western Syncoal will be cheaper than most Eastern coals on a $$/mmBtu basis. Consider the ACCP Syncoal project out of Montana. They claimed they could process 8,800 Btu Montana coal (most of which is still just sitting in the ground due to it's higher sodium content) into 12,000 btu syncoal for around $30 to $40 a ton. Even with transportation costs that double that price to Eastern power plants, the 12,000 Btu Syncoal will be more cost effective than 15,000 Btu Appalachian coal, soley due to the inherently lower sulfer content. The Syncoal also has the added plus of having most of the mecury removed during the process.

Here is the official feds NETL summary and link:

http://www.netl.doe.gov/technologies/coal_and_power_systems/cctc/summaries/rsbud/adcconvdemo.html

There's also the CENfuel coal product, which is a chemical conversion of raw coal to synthetic coal, but last I heard they were focussing on the carbon black market. There's also FX(?) a type of synthetic coal currently being marketed, but they are pretty closed lipped about their product.

But of the three synthetic coal products mentioned, the ACCP syncoal is the least costly to produce, and would work great in steam locomotive applications. But again, the product does easily self combust, so it can't be transported in open air gons for long distances.

[Tim Burton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by paulstecyna21

and what about coal that is in the appalachians of pennsylvania?

It's called Anthracite. Best *** coal in the world, point blank. Hard as hell to get it out of the ground though, I have been in the mines, 45 degrees or more is regular for the slopes. In fact, I have a softball size hunk on my desk here. Burns very very hot, very very clean too.

http://pocono.org/coalmine.html

http://web.ulib.csuohio.edu/SpecColl/stereos/Mining/3d7052.html

http://www.anthracitemuseum.org/galleries.htm

http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/enved/go_with_inspector/coalmine/Anthracite_Coal_Mining.htm

http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/abpa04.Html
History of the Area and the history of a number of RRs.

http://www.paunusual.com/story/000088.php
http://scrantontimes.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11393463&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=450444&rfi=6
The Lackawanna Coal Mine

An FAQ about Anthracite:
http://www.coaldelivery.com/faq/

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/coalvswind/brief_coal.html
Info on Coal

Most the Anthracite Coal in PA, is in the Lackawanna Valley mostly around Scranton. There never will be any mining, because the government would require zero contamination of the water. Since the water table is actually higher than the valley bottom, you can see the problem. Instead the EPA drilled a bore hole 300' in the middle of the Susquanna (spelling?) and lets the iron oxide and sulfer just float out. God forbid if the coal companies were to do that. On many days you can go and see the sink hole, while you can't see the actual hole, you can see the "orange" water coming up from "no where" and going down stream.

A lot of ex miners I talked to would wi***hat the companies were allowed to return with the boom coal is going through, it would save the region.

[Tim Burton]

Oh one more History site, much to the rememberance of the RRs for it drove the RRs.
http://www.huberbreaker.org/

[Tim Burton]

Oops, I need to show you this:

http://www.undergroundminers.com/index.html

[edkowal]

An unspoken assumption in this discussion in that mining in Wyoming is very much safer than mining in West Virginia or Pennsylvania. For instance, how many coal miners are working in these two areas? And related questions.

I did a little Internet research. Remember, though, that this is not a very scientific study. I just worked with some general values which I was able to find at two US Government websites, the Mine Safety & Health Administration and the Energy Information Administration.

While it _can_ be said that coal mining in Wyoming is a safer occupation, it is probably not as safe as people in this discussion have been assuming. Looking at fatalities only, there were 11 fatalities in Wyoming during the years 1993 through 2005. During that same interval, there were 127 fatalities in West Virginia. But the number of miners is greater in West Virginia by a significant number: 16403 vs. 4990 in Wyoming. (The numbers of miners are only for the year 2004. It's the only year I could find quickly.)

If we adjust for the numbers of miners involved, we get the following: 0.22 fatalities per 100 workers in Wyoming, and 0.77 fatalities per 100 workers in West Virginia, over the course of 13 years. Wyoming is almost entirely a surface miner state. West Virginia is about 2/3 underground miner, that is, 1/3 of the miners in West Virginia work in surface mines. So it would seem that underground mining is clearly more dangerous. But the situation is not so cut and dried. As an example, in Arizona, which is completely surface mines according to the data I've found, a similar analysis yields 0.50 fatalities per 100 workers in the same 13 year interval.

I didn't take the trouble to try to go any deeper, because the number of fatalities was just broken down by state, not by type of mine. I'm sure the data are around somewhere, though.

But my point is this, even surface mining is a dangerous profession, with a significant number of fatalities involved. The incidence of fatalities in underground mining would seem to be about 3 to 4 fold greater than for surface mining. That's definitely more of a problem, but probably not as big a difference as has been assumed in this discussion.

-Ed

[Leon Silverman]

Economics 101 dictates that when the total demand exceeds the capacity of a single supplier to meet that demand, there has to be multiple suppliers. Consequently, there is a demand for coal from both sources. Read the Trains Newswire from January 9th. The railroads are struggling to deliver as much coal this year as they did last. As a result, the cost for PRB coal has gone up . WV mines cannot be shut down until and unless the coal they produce can be replaced by another source at the same or less money. However, given our nation's thirst for energy, the usage will continue to increase to the point where coal from both sources will be insufficient satisfy all of the requirements, keeping both sopurces open, busy, and profitable.

[carnej1]

[
But of the three synthetic coal products mentioned, the ACCP syncoal is the least costly to produce, and would work great in steam locomotive applications. But again, the product does easily self combust, so it can't be transported in open air gons for long distances.

[GP40-2]

While modern underground coal mining is still a dangerous occupation, mining today is much safer today than it was in the past.

For a historical prospective, below is an actual newspaper article published by the Washington, PA Observer on the 1908 Marianna Mine disaster that killed 154 miners. The Marianna Mine is located in southwestern PA, south of Washington PA. They were down in the Pittsburgh Seam, located 600 to 1700 feet below the surface.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LIST OF THE DEAD (Pg. 1, Nov. 30, 1908 The Observer)

The list of the dead up-to-date as gathered from the partial
identification of the bodies brought to the surface is as follows:

(1) John Ivill, Married Nov. 4, 1908, aged 23 years; resided in
Monongahela, employed as assistant machine boss. Death resulted from
suffocation. Cousin of John H. Jones.
(2) Mike Slovinsho, Italian body badly mutilated. Identified by check
number on company books. Lived at Marianna.
(3) Unidentified foreigner, leg torn off, head blown to atoms, body
burned, and clothes torn off.
(4) Owen Borns, American, burned about head and face, left arm broken.
Identified by check No. 896.
(5) Unidentified foreigner, head crushed.
(6) Unidentified body, literally torn to pieces, nothing but portion of
trunk left.
(7) Ditto.
(8) Unidentified foreigner, no check number. Hands burned. Death
resulted from suffocation.
(9) Milt Eckenrode, foreigner, aged about 35 years. Identified by tattoo
name on arm and also by check number.
(10) Foreigner, known as "Donegal," resided at Galiagher boarding house.
Death resulted from fractured skull.
(11) Doninick Qualiero, Italian, identified by tattooed name under arm,
and also check No. 215.
(12) Unidentified foreigner, portion of trunk left, one leg, and a
portion of head. All clothing torn from body.
(13) Charles Tahaney, foreigner, skull crushed, leg broken. Identified
by receipt in purse.
(14) Mike Lapine, face burned, death due to suffocation. Identified from
check.
(15) Frank Tebery, foreigner, leg broken, head crushed, upper portion of
body burned. Identified by check number.
(16) Unidentified body, with both legs broken, and badly burned.
(17) Unidentified body, disemboweled, left leg torn off, arm broken, top
of head blown off.
(18) Unidentified, both legs broken. Death due to suffocation.
(19) Unidentified, disemboweled, head blown off, one foot gone.
(20) John Tedroff, miner identified with check number.
(21) Unidentified body, badly burned.
(22) Unidentified American, crushed about the head; check number 19.
(23) James Henderson, mine foreman, survived by wife and several
children, resided at Ellsworth; head blown off.
(24) Frank Egon, aged 30, suffocated.
(25) George Ackers, negro, aged 30 years; leaves wife, formerly Miss
Bennett of Centerville, death due to suffocation.
(26) Unidentified foreigner, disemboweled, leg broken, check number 179.
(27) John Joedsky, skull crushed; identified by check number.
(28) John Donesty, leg broken, death due to suffocation; identified by
check.
(29) Unidentified.
(30) Unidentified.
(31) Unidentified.
(32) Unidentified.
(33) Unidentified.
(34) Alec Toorse, identified by check.
(35) Unidentified.
(36) Richard Ciatt, identified by check number. Wore diamond ring and
gold ring.
(37) Unidentified.
(38) Unidentified.
(39) Sam Samtum.
(40) Unidentified.
(41) Unidentified.
(42) George Lannoss, head blown off. Identified by paper in pocket.
(43) Unidentified.
(44) Pat Donlin, identified to friends.
(45) Bunerain Asrey, identified by check.
(46) Henry Thompson, aged 48, married; leaves wife and 8 children; lived
in Marianna.
(47) Unidentified.
(48) Unidentified.
(49) Alex Bosewitch, foreigner, identified by friend.

In addition to these there have been brought up 12 unidentified bodies.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My grandfather was trapped in a cave in of a southwestern PA mine for three days in the 1950's. They found him trapped under a 5 ton chunk of slate that fell from the roof. The rest of his co-workers well killed in the cave in. He suffered severe injuries and died a few years later from complications from the accident.

It always makes me laugh today when some computer geek claims he had "a tough day at the office"...

[narig01]

About Coal Economics. Several Months Ago(I don't remember which issue),there was an article about minerals on the Rio Grande. There was some comment about the economics of coal.
rgds ign