Fred M CainThis is not rocket science and it's completely doable. The obstacles are political, not transportation or engineering related.
First, there are the few miles of street running in Milwaukee, which would necessitate slow running. A grade separation would likely be needed if high-speed running was desired.
Second, there is much development on and near the ROW thru Kenosha; I realize that when running, the NS raced thru the town, but that was long before the area by the tracks was developed (the ROW is now a trail). A grade separation would also likely be needed for high-speed running.
Persons wishing to use intermediate stations would have a good service, as long as they are not in too big of a hurry. However, people travelling from end point to end point would be better served by the Hiawatha, although the NS/CTA connection in Chicago would be a definite plus.
I cannot even imagine how the ROW could be reclaimed south of Waukegan, especially along the Shore Line route (I am not familiar with the area around the old Mundelein ROW).
(Personal note): One of my fondest memories of the North Shore other than it being a super-cool railroad to a 10-year-old, was the sale in the Milwaukee terminal of Horlicks Malted Milk tablets. They were made in Racine (close to the NS ROW), and were sold in a small bottle; and to this day, my memory of the taste places them near the top of my favorite sweet treat list. Around the Kenosha-Racine area, if you ask almost anybody over 50 years old if they remember the Horlicks flavor, and you will get a most enthusiastic response.
"First, there are the few miles of street running in Milwaukee, which would necessitate slow running. A grade separation would likely be needed if high-speed running was desired."
zardoz,
In terms of street running in Milwaukee, we need to balance the slowness of that against the convenience of people boarding in the street at several different locations. This is an approach that worked really well in the past and could very likely work well again.
What has changed in its favor is that technology has increased so much and a reborn North Shore could easily hit speeds of 125 MPH on private right-of-way (ROW) and offer a much smoother ride while doing so.
Development on the ROW in the neighborhood of Kenosha is unfortunate. It would be expensive to reaquire that especially if buildings need to be bought and and moved or demolished.
A few years ago, this corridor was on board to build a new semi-high speed commuter rail line mostly on the old C&NW ROW. Some conservative politicians in Wisconsin succeeded in blowing up that plan just as the work was coming close to commencing!
That was most unfortunate but there may be a silver lining in that black cloud. Perhaps if a new governor and statehouse in Wisconsin would go along with going back and dusting off those plans, they might be persuaded to use the old CNS&M alignment instead of the C&NW route. I dunno. Just an idea, that's all.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Fred M CainIn terms of street running in Milwaukee, we need to balance the slowness of that against the convenience of people boarding in the street at several different locations. This is an approach that worked really well in the past and could very likely work well again.
But there is no harm in fantasizing, as long as it doesn't lead to innappropriate behavior. So I suppose that we first must decide if this train service would be for 'intermediate stop' patrons, or is it to be for point-to-point (Chicago-Milwaukee) patrons.
If for the former, then making stops in Milwaukee would be acceptable. But consider how slow the street running was back in the '50s, and compare that to how congested the streets are now and how much slower yet the running would be. If it takes a half-hour just to get from downtown Milwaukee to Oak Creek, how long in duration would the trip be, especially to people accustomed to getting around so much quicker.
If for the latter, then the street running would be unacceptable, and a new ROW would be needed. Even if you somehow tried to close 5th or 6th streets and cordoned them off to permit trains to speed through, the proposal would die before it even hit a committee. I believe Milwaukee learned its lesson when they bisected neighborhoods in order to build the freeways back in the '60s. The only way I see as expensively possible, would be to build
It would make much more sense to utilize the UP's Kenosha sub, which is totally under-utilized, except for Oak Creek coal trains, and could be brought back up to modern standards for far less that trying to rebuild the North Shore. Not only that, the UP line goes thru the center of the "small" towns (Bay View, South Milwaukee, Oak Creek, Racine, and Kenosha, where it continues as both Metra and UP until Lake Bluff, where the freight line diverges towards the Milwaukee sub. The line also passes on the east side of Mitchell Field airport. And if extra freight capacity was needed, the UP's Milwaukee (former New Line) sub could be re-double-tracked, as the bridges were originally built for double-track. On both subdivisions, the ROW is still 'double-wide' throughout.
Better yet, recreate the North Shore and have it merge with the South Shore and run the Electroliners from Milwaukee to South Bend and back.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Better yet, recreate the North Shore and have it merge with the South Shore and run the Electroliners from Milwaukee to South Bend and back.
When you are dreaming with OPM (Other Peoples Money) the sky is the limit.
This is what I think we really need to do. Many of us can voice our opinions on this list as to what we'd like to see or not see. But what we REALLY need to do is to drum up enough interest in this to pressure the "powers that be" into funding a study. That would be the first step. Once a study is done it could very well die there - or not. Maybe Richard Harness could shed some light on the idea. I might just send him an e-mail.
What I like the most about the idea is that it could deliver commuters, as in the past, to "L" stations where they could make easy, across-the-platform connections to other "L" routes - or walk to their offices if they are close enough. A new service over the ex-C&NW Kenosha Line still leaves the commuters at Northwestern Station well west of the Loop with an inconvenient connection to the CTA.
Fred M Cain new service over the ex-C&NW Kenosha Line still leaves the commuters at Northwestern Station well west of the Loop with an inconvenient connection to the CTA.
A few blocks walk is hardly "well west" of the Loop. Three blocks to Wells Street and the L.
charlie hebdo Fred M Cain new service over the ex-C&NW Kenosha Line still leaves the commuters at Northwestern Station well west of the Loop with an inconvenient connection to the CTA. A few blocks walk is hardly "well west" of the Loop. Three blocks to Wells Street and the L.
Fred M Cainthe ex-C&NW Kenosha Line still leaves the commuters at Northwestern Station well west of the Loop with an inconvenient connection to the CTA.
Unfortunately the NW Passage connection to the L was removed in 1990. Yeah, in extreme winter weather, it's a tough walk. But real Chicagoans managed back in the day, whether riding commuter trains or the CTA. Used to be "The city that works." In the Blizzard of 1979, people found ways to get to their jobs.
charlie hebdoUsed to be "The city that works." In the Blizzard of 1979, people found ways to get to their jobs.
From the Chicago Tribune:
Due to the storm, O'Hare was closed for 96 hours and all flights were cancelled. The cold weather and snow resulted in frozen tracks throughout theChicago "L" system. Commuters overwhelmed the capacity of CTA buses, causing bus commutes that normally would have taken 30 to 45 minutes to take up to several hours.
The city was walloped by a massive blizzard that dumped 20.3 inches. At the time it was the second-largest snowfall in city history. As bad as that was, the pain and inconvenience were just beginning......
The storm that started Saturday morning was supposed to be minor, just 2 to 4 inches, according to Tribune reports. But it developed by Saturday night into a massive blizzard that clogged roads, shut down both airports and paralyzed CTA trains and buses. The heavy snow collapsed roof after roof and crushed weak garages into kindling.
But what came next was the true disaster.
Chicago Mayor Michael Bilandic declared an emergency before the storm finished howling. He smartly ordered city snowplows to clear school and Park District parking lots so residents would have somewhere to park their cars. But city officials and workers just couldn't get traction -- and life just didn't get any better. The snow kept coming over the next few days, and Chicago remained paralyzed. Buses and trains didn't run or were greatly delayed. Schools were closed all week. When they did open Jan. 22, there was no bus service because most of the neighborhood schools were inaccessible anyway.
The city didn't even begin plowing residential side streets until Jan. 20. (Though the Tribune noted Jan. 19 that two side streets were "thoroughly plowed": the block where Bilandic lived and the block where the late Mayor Richard J. Daley had lived.) Garbage wasn't collected for at least 10 days. As if that weren't enough, Bilandic announced he was cracking down on parked cars, ordering police to issue tickets and start towing, something that had to happen if the streets were going to be cleared. But the mayor kept talking, adding that there would be "no exceptions" for sick, elderly or poor people who couldn't move their cars. "If there are such hardship cases, they can tell that to a judge. That's what a judge is for."
Life -- streets, mass transit, work, schools, garbage pickup -- didn't return to some semblance of normality until late January.
I remember the Blizzard of 1967 better - I was working 'down state' at the B&O Agents job at Salem, IL. There were a number of employees that were part of the B&O's System Rail gang. They would normally depart East on #12 on Saturday night to be where they were working on Sunday so they could work dawn to dusk at whatever location the rail gang was working for two weeks and then return home for a week. For the Blizzard of 1967 they departed on Saturday night destined through connections to Chicago to fight the effects of the Blizzard on the B&O and B&O CT rights of way and yards. They were on duty and on pay for 24 hours of the entire two weeks - for the period they had some jaw dropping pay checks - 40 hours ST and 128 hours OT for the weeks.
I believe the 67 Blizzard is Chicago's worst of all time.
zardozThe city was walloped by a massive blizzard that dumped 20.3 inches. At the time it was the second-largest snowfall in city history. As bad as that was, the pain and inconvenience were just beginning...
I remember that one. I was right in the middle of it.
I was stranded at my future wife's apartment in a two flat on Wrightwood Ave. in Chicago. Oh darn! I couldn't move my car due to the unplowed street. I was working for the ICG at their HQ in a Michigan Ave. high rise. It was disruptive, but not impossible.
I did get in to work. Fullerton Ave. had been plowed and the CTA busses were running. I'd walk to Fullerton and take one of those busses over to the L line, which was also operating. The L would take me to the loop. Then I'd just walk to the office building.
It took a while, and it was cold. But I got there. I did that for several days. Finally they plowed our side street and then my fiancee's father shoveled my car out. Not a joke.
People seemed very determined to get to their jobs, one way or another. And they overwhelmingly did so.
This is the Midwest. It gets cold and snows. You gotta' deal with it.
charlie hebdo Unfortunately the NW Passage connection to the L was removed in 1990. Yeah, in extreme winter weather, it's a tough walk. But real Chicagoans managed back in the day, whether riding commuter trains or the CTA. Used to be "The city that works." In the Blizzard of 1979, people found ways to get to their jobs.
Yes, I think my thoughts were that a revived North Shore-like service would be more convenient if it were once again allowed to access the "L" tracks and stations.
However, it is not a sure thing as to whether or not the CTA would even allow that anymore. I think it worked well in the past, though.
After the CTA took over rapid transit operations in 1947, separate boarding platforms for North Shore and CTA had to be provided at joint stations. This was due to a statutory requirement that all CTA passengers were required to pay a fare to CTA, no free transfers from North Shore or CA&E.
greyhounds zardoz The city was walloped by a massive blizzard that dumped 20.3 inches. At the time it was the second-largest snowfall in city history. As bad as that was, the pain and inconvenience were just beginning... I remember that one. I was right in the middle of it. I was stranded at my future wife's apartment in a two flat on Wrightwood Ave. in Chicago. Oh darn! I couldn't move my car due to the unplowed street. I was working for the ICG at their HQ in a Michigan Ave. high rise. It was disruptive, but not impossible. I did get in to work. Fullerton Ave. had been plowed and the CTA busses were running. I'd walk to Fullerton and take one of those busses over to the L line, which was also operating. The L would take me to the loop. Then I'd just walk to the office building. It took a while, and it was cold. But I got there. I did that for several days. Finally they plowed our side street and then my fiancee's father shoveled my car out. Not a joke. People seemed very determined to get to their jobs, one way or another. And they overwhelmingly did so. This is the Midwest. It gets cold and snows. You gotta' deal with it.
zardoz The city was walloped by a massive blizzard that dumped 20.3 inches. At the time it was the second-largest snowfall in city history. As bad as that was, the pain and inconvenience were just beginning...
Yes. My memory as a young buyer at Marshall Field agrees with yours. I was living on Leland, near the Ravenswood L stop at Montrose and also the CNW Ravenswood station. Streets and parking were a disaster; people were fighting, even shooting to keep their dug out caves on the street. Buses were mostly not running; the L was running though with reduced service and slowly. The result was trains packed so badly that some folks were standing between cars. The CNW/RTA trains were a better option, though that left a long trudge through the snow across the Loop. But my point was that even with all this, most people were expected to and managed to get to work, albeit late.
One thing I have observed over the years - One's ability to drive safely in snow and ice decreases with the square of being on the roads with others.
With no one else on the roads the ability to recover from a misjudgement is virtually limitless. With the rest of humanity a foot away in all directions a mistake in judgement is immediately bent sheet metal or worse.
BaltACD One thing I have observed over the years - One's ability to drive safely in snow and ice decreases with the square of being on the roads with others. With no one else on the roads the ability to recover from a misjudgement is virtually limitless. With the rest of humanity a foot away in all directions a mistake in judgement is immediately bent sheet metal or worse.
+1!!
Fred M CainYes, I think my thoughts were that a revived North Shore-like service would be more convenient if it were once again allowed to access the "L" tracks and stations.
The line through Oak Creek, South Milwaukee, Cudahy, etc is the Kenosha line. The line that runs next to the Airport is the New Line. They are two separate routes actually a couple of miles apart.
Twenty inches? Really? That's all it takes to paralyze Chicago? Boston, Mass. sees that and more every so often; I've seen it maybe 4 o 5 times in my 56 years here. There's a lot moe to connecting north and south side commuter lines here; we just do without o use the orange line connection as a work around: it's cheaper. The CNS&M and the CA&E were seen only in pictures and movies; fortunately I saw Pittsburgh Railways 1952-62 as a young child.
wgc53217 The line through Oak Creek, South Milwaukee, Cudahy, etc is the Kenosha line. The line that runs next to the Airport is the New Line. They are two separate routes actually a couple of miles apart.
Electroliner 1935 Fred M Cain Yes, I think my thoughts were that a revived North Shore-like service would be more convenient if it were once again allowed to access the "L" tracks and stations. Note that the outer EL tracks between Grand and Armitage are no longer in existance. These were used by Evanston Express trains and the North Shore trains. Now the Evanston Express trains share the remaining two tracks with the Ravenswood trains. Nice dreams though.
Fred M Cain Yes, I think my thoughts were that a revived North Shore-like service would be more convenient if it were once again allowed to access the "L" tracks and stations.
Note that the outer EL tracks between Grand and Armitage are no longer in existance. These were used by Evanston Express trains and the North Shore trains. Now the Evanston Express trains share the remaining two tracks with the Ravenswood trains. Nice dreams though.
Actually, perhaps it's a little bit more that a wild dream. Not much more perhaps but maybe a little bit more. I found out that this IS being looked at. A long shot at best but not impossible by any stretch. A lot of strange things have happened that we wouldn't have dreamed of 50 years ago. New streetcar systems, Brightline in Florida, high speed rail abuilding in California, the container revolution, a few abandoned rail lines that have been revived. There have been some set backs along the way and there will be more. But it seems to me like the rail mode is making progress.
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
There is also an overpass on the Shore Line just north of Highwood with "North Shore Line" cast in concrete where Sheridan Road ducks under the Shore Line and the parallel C&NW North Line. The two lines were next to each other almost all the way from Evanston to Waukegan, which goes a long way in explaining why the Shore Line was abandoned in 1955 and why it wouldn't be rebuilt.
CSSHEGEWISCH There is also an overpass on the Shore Line just north of Highwood with "North Shore Line" cast in concrete where Sheridan Road ducks under the Shore Line and the parallel C&NW North Line. The two lines were next to each other almost all the way from Evanston to Waukegan, which goes a long way in explaining why the Shore Line was abandoned in 1955 and why it wouldn't be rebuilt.
I think the Skokie Valley Route was what folks were considering. The Shore Line was abandoned in 1955, eight years before the former.
Had the North Shore somehow survived, I think it might have resulted in a the C&NW trying to eliminate the majority (if not all?) North Line commuter services. I recall a couple of (apocryphal) stories of the Heineman Era:1) Working with the Illinois Commerce Commission to discontinue many station stops in Chicago that were already served the CTA buses. A win-win, in that the C&NW eleiminated a lot of unnecessary facilties, and the CTA picked up a lot of transfer passeneger business.2) Cutting service/schedules in order to funnel savings to new bilevel equipmet on remaining trains.To the extent those were true, I could see the C&NW making the state an offer of, "We drop service on the North Line, and the North Shore picks up our old passenger busiiness. Our cost goes down (which we put back into the Northwest and West Lines), and the North Shore gets a big boost in buusiness." Maybe...maybe it gets approved.
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