If the North Shore had survived.

[rbomier]

Probably my favorite fallen flag / abandoned railroad I like to speculate what the Chicago North Shore would be like if it could have survived to the era of public funding. I suspect the railroad would be running in the freeway median on the south side of Milwaukee. I don't really know what the rolling stock would be like today. Maybe some others have thought about this.

[Modelcar]

Years ago flying towards Milwaukee and noticing the recently abandoned North Shore ROW....I can remember thinking to myself of why was such a thing done as to look at the straight ROW down below...Surely, that must have been a great way to get down to Chicago....Perhaps it could have been great with modern equipment. I really don't know the details of what happened to it.

[nanaimo73]

I would like to think it would be just like the South Shore is today.
www.nictd.com
The chances of getting three States and Metra (IC electric lines) to work together would be slim. Perhaps it could have gone to Randolph Street Station, but then again Boston can't get their lines together.

[Anonymous]

The old CMStP&P Lakewood Branch (now CP) might have provided a good right-of-way to bring the North Shore trains into downtown from the "El" connection at Wilson Ave. It ran at ground level right along the west side of Wrigley Field. But that line now runs only as far north as Diversey. Of course, to be effective for passenger service today it would have to be elevated to eliminate many grade crossings. More details on that line at these websites:
http://www.mannresearch.com/chicagoswitching/working/articles/?menu=0&locationid=1&proxyid=
http://www.chicagoswitching.com/chicagoswitching/v3/

[nanaimo73]

Thanks for the links, Lincoln. Trains magazine has published conflicting maps over the years about those CMSP&P lines and its been frustrating.

[Anonymous]

I want to put in a plug for CTA's "Skokie Swift," which runs nonstop from Howard Street and Paulina on the Chicago/Evanston boundary to Dempster near the Edens Expy (I-94) in Skokie -- five miles in seven minutes.

The route includes, cut, trestle, and ground level views. Just recently the Skokie Swift was taken off the catenary, but the stancions (sp?) are still there. Up until then the Swift took bimodal electricity: shoe in Evanston and pantograph in Skokie.

I am posting this because this is the last operant piece of the old North Shore. Most people think the North Shore went thru Linden Street in Wilmette and followed C&NW footage north, which it certainly did, but the Skokie Swift is part of the old "Skokie Valley" cutoff.

One of the smartest, most proactive things the CTA ever did back in the late sixties was to revitalize this one last stretch (abandoned since 1963). And it MAKES money!

[Anonymous]

PS--The Swift dosn't run on weekends, unfortunately.
It is used very much as a day-and-evening commuter service.

[Anonymous]

Would be nice to have it still travel to the loop on the EL. Rather seamless transportation to and from much of Chicago.

Maybe Amtrak would only operate the Empire Builder to Milwaukee if the NS existed?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The North Shore would have never survived intact. There wasn't enough freight service to cover losses until the political climate changed. But, it's fun to speculate and I'll throw out a few thoughts.

Before North Shore was abandoned, a median strip right-of-way on I-94 had been proposed. If this proposal was built, I could see a service between Milwaukee and Kenosha along the likes of Philadelphia & Western or Shaker Heights Rapid Transit with light rail equipment. I'll leave it to others to suggest a location for the Milwaukee terminal.

On the Chicago end, the Skokie Swift provides a good basis for what might have been. I would see a Howard Street-Mundelein/Edison Court operation on weekends and off-peak with through service into the Loop during rush hours over the CTA. Deadheading of equipment between the Loop and Howard Street to and from midday layovers could be a bit of an operating problem, though. Equipment would be lightweight rapid transit married pairs built to CTA specs but with pantographs and pilots.

Through service between Chicago and Milwaukee would be discontinued and freight service would be passed to the North Western or Milwaukee Road as appropriate. Since the Shore Line had already been abandoned in 1955, I'm not considering that service at all, besides, the C&NW North Line paralleled it very closely. I would not consider moving the service into one of the existing steam road terminals because of the incompatibility of North Shore's old equipment with steam road equipment and the expense of electrifying the appropriate lines.

[daveklepper]

I missed the North Shore very, very much,, and the CA&E too.

[Chris30]

What killed the interurban in the Chicago area during the late 1950's & early 1960's? The car. In fact, they built the new West Side Expressway (name?)(now the Eisenhower) in the mid 1950's using the Chicago, Aurora & Elgin right-of-way! Service to Chicago was severed and the end was near. Funny thing is, now we have too many cars and need transportation alternatives in the Chicago area.

CC

[cbq9911a]

If the North Shore Line had survived another year or so, it would have become eligible for some sort of federal transportation funding (as actually happened with the Skokie Swift).

Had the North Shore Line survived until 1969 as an operating company, it would probably have become the core of the "Railpax" system, taking over the other railroad's passenger operations. The Chicago - Milwaukee route would still be running in all its glory today. Some things would be different, like the equipment (two generations of new cars). But a lot would have been the same, like the catenary towers on the Skokie Valley route.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I couldn't see the North Shore becoming part of Amtrak, even if it lasted until 1971, what with its non-standard equipment and slow entries into both Chicago and Milwaukee.

There was a fairly well-documented proposal by CTA's planning staff to resume operation over CA&E between Forest Park and Wheaton using pre-war PCC's equipped with third-rail shoes (!) and other modifications. Since funding was still an unanswered issue, it has been questioned whether this was a serious proposal or merely meant to mollify critics.

The only Federal funding involved with the Skokie Swift consisted of grants for upgrading the line as a demonstration project. No operating subsidies were included. Government operating subsidies in the Chicago area didn't become a factor until the early 1970's.

[Randy Stahl]

There still isn't suburban service on the CNW/Metra north of Kenosha. 2 routes would not have survived.
randy

[eastside]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lincoln5390

The old CMStP&P Lakewood Branch (now CP) might have provided a good right-of-way to bring the North Shore trains into downtown from the "El" connection at Wilson Ave. It ran at ground level right along the west side of Wrigley Field. But that line now runs only as far north as Diversey. Of course, to be effective for passenger service today it would have to be elevated to eliminate many grade crossings.

It's a bit hazy because I was only a kid, but I remember them switching coal cars to coal dealer sidings at Berwyn and Thorndale. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the CMStP&P didn't actually use the El tracks but had gauntlet tracks. In addition to the at grade problem another problem would have been that the CMStP&P ran on the west side of the El tracks. At that point the El is 4 tracks wide. The northbound North Shore trains would have had to have had some way to cross to the eastmost track. Crossing over opposing traffic was something that was very rare on the CTA. The Ravenswood line is the only instance that comes to mind.

[daveklepper]

North of Howard Street there was quite a junction, and the North Shore Skokie Valley trains did in fact cross over the southbound track of the trains from Evanston as well as the North Shore Shore Line Trains. It was quite a busy place, but the headways were not so tight as to make the job completely impossible.

In New York City, much the same happens just north of 135th Street on the Lenox Avenue (ooops! Malcome X, Avenue today) where the 2 and 3 lines diverge, each having about a 5 minute headway during rush hours in both directions.

[eastside]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

North of Howard Street there was quite a junction, and the North Shore Skokie Valley trains did in fact cross over the southbound track of the trains from Evanston as well as the North Shore Shore Line Trains. It was quite a busy place, but the headways were not so tight as to make the job completely impossible.

Forgot about that. The Howard-southside trains, which comprised the great majority of the line's traffic terminated at Howard so the junction, which was north of it, didn't have to contend with nearly as many potential conflicts. The CMStP&P reached the El's level between Lawrence and Wilson, a much busier place. In addition, this was a single track. They would have had to add another track and run it some way to the east side of the four tracks because that single track was southbound, used by the Evanston Express and North Shore to bypass the Wilson ave. station. Amazingly, in the '50s the CTA could find money to build that elevated bypass just to accommodate the Evanston and North Shore trains. I've come to the conclusion that running the North Shore into downtown on those tracks would not have been feasible. A lot of people depended on the convenience of using the loop stations. I also think that the C&NW and CMStP&P would have done everything they could to block such a plan had it been attempted in the '50s.

The straight section between Wilson and Loyola is about 3.5 miles (the northbound tracks are straighter). The Evanston and NS trains used to go all out on that section. A driver once told me that they typically reached between 65 and 70 mph.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

There still isn't suburban service on the CNW/Metra north of Kenosha. 2 routes would not have survived.
randy

Even going back to the pre-Amtrak era, Kenosha was always the end of the suburban service, although most suburban trains terminated at Waukegan. Service north of Kenosha was part of C&NW's intercity service.

Stating that the C&NW North Line and CNS&M'S Shore Line were parallel would be an understatement. Their rights-of-way ran side by side through much of the area from Evanston to Waukegan.

[Anonymous]

Just to update--The Swift and the Evanston "purple line" (which can be rush-hour service to the Loop or just a Wilmette-Howard shuttle) do had to cross each other's path until fairly recently. And while Swift patrons do have the hassle of changing trains at Howard, it's an easy across-the-platform move and almost always during the day a Howard "Red Line" (to 95th Street) train is waiting; unless it's rush hour than normally an Evanston Express.

[daveklepper]

but do they still have an across the platform transfer northbound in the evening?

Note that frieght did move in both directions on the southbound, outer, most west express track used by southbound Evanston trains and all nearly all North Shore trains. But the freights ran during off peak or at night, and if there were any North Shore trains running at that time, the southbounds could use and did use the local track and still not loose much time.

[Anonymous]

Did the CTA heavy shop facility in the Skokie/Evanston area originally belong to the North Shore? Was it connected to the system via the Skokie line. I haven't been there in a really long time, but I remember it being pretty far west of the Howard/Wilmette line.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Skokie Shops were always owned by CRT/CTA. When they were built, CRT provided local service to Dempster Street over the North Shore Line. CRT/CTA paid a trackage rights fee to North Shore for the Skokie locals and equipment moves to and from Skokie Shops.

North Shore always had its main shops at Highwood.

[PAUL HURST]

But what if?

Imagine this.  The North Shore survives long enough to become part of the RTA.

New cars are ordered from Budd, married pairs with the classic Budd shotweld look.  Since the CTA does not want the NSL cars running over the El, the RTA is forced to look for an alternative route.  They find one.

During the days when the RTA had gobs of cash to spend, they reroute the North Shore over the CNW adjacent tracks with the CNW Madison Street station as the terminus.  Since the RTA has gobs of cash, the entire route is constructed with overhead catenary all of the way to Madison Street.  In 1978, the North Shore switches over to the new alignment.

Since the NSL is no longer constrained by the CTA, new cars are ordered that can handle the new alignment.  Longer, wider and operating in pairs.  The Highwood shops are closed, the rails abandoned and the new shops are built just across the border in Pleasant Prairie.  The Mundelein branch is abandoned with buses shuttling passengers to a new station at the South Upton Junction.

Service north of the State Line is dependent upon the Wisconsin State government.  It is not gauranteed, so I am assuming that the North Shore service ends at Winthrop Harbor.

I can still dream can't I!

 

[/quote]

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The only place where C&NW and North Shore paralleled each other was on the Shore Line, which was abandoned in 1955.  The Skokie Valley Line was about halfway between the C&NW and MILW lines.

Also, even prior to 1982, the RTA didn't have that kind of money to pay for a major line relocation.

[charlie hebdo]

The North Shore Line connected at Howard Street with the L.  Since the C&NW Milwaukee Division line is also right there (on elevated track going over the NS), an interchange could have been constructed.  Sure it would have cost money, but not that much. Besides, he said this was all a "what-if."

[MidlandMike]

The abandonment of the North Shore Line resulted in a few thousand passengers climbing aboard the parallel C&NW.   There apparently was not enough business for both.

[charlie hebdo]

Maybe so  but have you tried the Edens lately?  The North Shore might be a great help now. Or for that matter, the Ike?  Or UP West on Metra?   All overcrowded.  We could use the CA&E, too. The population has jumped a lot since the 1956 abandonment.

[widave]

Since we're basically in fantasy mode here, I'll go with the OP (13 yrs ago now) and ask why not have had it designed in the 60's to be included in the I-94 median between 6th St (Plainfield Curve) and downtown Milwaukee to avoid the South Side street running. Once into the Marquette Interchange, it drops down and out to a new station in the area of Michigan and James Lovell (like, right across the street from their original station maybe).

Current service to all existing stations/markets would be maintained south of 6th St, a new station could have been built at the airport along 6th St, allowing for todays runway layout, or where a station would have been relocated to as the airport expanded. Milwaukee Road and later Amtrak Hiawatha Service, as we now know it, as well as North Western service from Kenosha-Milwaukee, would have no real need to have existed had the Milwaukee Road wanted to or even negotiated to end it and make their track freight and CGO-MSP (later Amtrak) long distance service only.

Just throwing it out there. Dont get me started on how the TMER&L west line could have been built into 94 west of downtown. Or how the Milwaukee's Elm Grove Airline (now the Hank Aaron Trail) could reach markets (commuters) and venues (Miller Park, the Veterans Home, State Fair Park and the Zoo) not otherwise reached. Maybe even a hook in to what is now The Hop. Lots of possibilities that could have been explored. 

[zardoz]

widave

Just throwing it out there. Dont get me started on how the TMER&L west line could have been built into 94 west of downtown. Or how the Milwaukee's Elm Grove Airline (now the Hank Aaron Trail) could reach markets (commuters) and venues (Miller Park, the Veterans Home, State Fair Park and the Zoo) not otherwise reached. Maybe even a hook in to what is now The Hop. Lots of possibilities that could have been explored. 

That's Milwaukee for ya--always poised on the forefront of modern thinking, ready at a moment's notice to stumble into the 21st century.

[Fred M Cain]

Actually, the thought has occurred to me several times that some kind of a rebuilding of the North Shore would be possible if not economically feasable.  Most of the right-or-way remains intact.  Then, with the development of a modern streetcar system in Milwaukee, a new service like that might be able to once again run downtown over the abuilding streetcar system.

The nicest thing about such an idea is the possibility that it could access "L" tracks in the Loop as it did in the past.  For some strange reason (and perhaps there are those on this list who know why) but for some bizarre reason the other commuter rail terminals in Chicago to not have a very convenient connection to the subway/L system like they do in New York.

A rebuilt North Shore might be able to allow commuters detrain right outside their office building OR they could get on the "L" and get to their office building if it's not within walking distance of North Shore terminal.

This is not rocket science and it's completely doable.  The obstacles are political, not transportation or engineering related.  Wisconsin has a kind of anti-rail position, the new Milwaukee streetcar system not withstanding.  Furthermore, so much of the Chicago area rail infrastructure is in dire need of improvement and rebuilding that any such North Shore rebuilding would have to be pushed back until that could be done first.  So, it might just happen someday but I probably won't be here to see it.

 

Regards,

Fred M. Cain