"foreign" locomotives

[Anonymous]

Can anyone out there help me to understand how and why locomotives from different "home" railroads wind up operating together, sometimes thousands of miles from their namesake operation ?
I've been a serious railfan all my life and have never had this explained in any of the pubs or books that I devour. For example, how does UP get paid for the use of its equipment running on CSX's Sand Patch Grade in Pennsylvania ?
If its really a "pool" of locomotives to be shared across the country, why bother having any specific RR markings on them at all ?
And how does a railroad know of its inventory for service at any given time ?
Thanks for any enlightenment on this subject.

Walt Rossbach in Reston, VA.

[chad thomas]

Welcome to the forum Walt

There are many reasons locos leave there home turf. Run through agreements would be one. Railroad A has a train that is delivered by railroad B so they each contribute to a pool of power and where the train is handed off they don't have to change power whitch consumes time and effort. Then there is the case where one railroad may be short of power and might borrow power from another railroad. There are also trackage rights situations where railroad A has rights over B but while As trains are on Bs tracks its railroad As power on the point.

When the power is on another railroads turf it is kept track of by horsepower hours. The horsepower of the unit is multiplied by the hours its on the forin road. Each railroad has an account with each other railroad. Occasionaly an account will get out of balance and the oweing railroad will turn over locomotives to pay back horsepower hours and bring the account back in balance.

This is kept track of by computer at each railroad. The bigger railroads have "power desks" where the locomotives are managed. Not only managed for hours they owe or are owed but to maintain the balance of power within there own systems. These managers have to plan days ahead of time to make shure there is enough power in the places it's needed.

I'm no expert on the subject but I hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

much thanks, Chad. I suspected there might be an industry-wide system like the one you've described so well. Now it makes sense to me.

Walt

[chad thomas]

Thanks for the compliment but like I said I'm no expert. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the subject can elaborate.

[Anonymous]

Here on the UP system you will every once in a while see other Railpower here on the UP. The ONL:Y Railroad that you will see on the East-West Main on the point is UP Locomotives.
Allan.

[edblysard]

Here is a good example.

NS and BNSF run a joint operation on containers trains...so, let’s say a NS engine develops a mechanical problem in El Paso.
Its cut from the train, set in the loco repair track...the train picks up another BNSF motor, and leaves without the NS loco.

BNSF is now short an AC4400 for an El Paso to Houston mixed freight, so they "borrow" the NS locomotive after it’s repaired.
Say it takes 24 hours to get here....

Now, we have a NS locomotive running around Houston, no where near NS turf, leading a BNSF freight...and BNSF owes NS the use of an equivalent unit for the same time.

The longer they (BNSF) uses the NS power, the more they owe.
It doesn’t have to be the exact same locomotive, its called horsepower hours, and every quarter, roads try to balance out their accounts with each other.

BNSF may end up "loaning" NS five SD40-2 as pay back, as long as the number of hours x horse power used equals out, or comes close.

It’s hard to cheat, as each locomotive carries an AEI tag, same as cars, and you can follow them from location to location.

Or take where I work...

UP drags a train into the yard, cuts off, and puts the power in the tie up track.
The crew is close to the hours of service, and UP has no need for the power on the train, or a crew to come get it for a day or two.

We might "borrow" the power for that day or two to haul yard to yard transfers...which means we "owe" UP the same number of hours use in equal horsepower.

Now, UP has zero need to borrow our MK1500Ds, and just to pay back a few days of SD70 use would require half our fleet of 25...so once a quarter, we pay a flat rate to UP for the use of any locomotive we borrowed.

You can carry this farther, say the train was a BNSF, with a NS engine, we could borrow the locomotive that BN had borrowed from NS...which explains why you can see a NS SD40-2 running around the Port of Houston every once in a while...we end up owing BN, who owes NS....

Not too complicated, but it does give raifans an excuse to wonder if some roads are about to merge...kinda fun to listen to the gossip.

Ed

[chad thomas]

Ed,
In the situation you describe where you can't realy pay back HP hours with HP hours, about how much money would you pay the owed road? and is that a set rate or is it different depending on the roads involved?

[edblysard]

I believe its a set rate for us...we are a netural terminal switching assocation, so we borrow our member lines (UP, BNSF, KCS/TexMex) power all the time.
I can ask tomorrow, if I can get to work...
Ed

[chad thomas]

Please do Ed. I would apriciate it.

[Gluefinger]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Here on the UP system you will every once in a while see other Railpower here on the UP. The ONL:Y Railroad that you will see on the East-West Main on the point is UP Locomotives.
Allan.

And that's because on the Geneva and Clinton subdivisions, CNW's obsolescent ATC system is still in use, requiring an ATC-equipped engine to be in the lead, these most often being ex-CNW SD40-2s and Dash 8s, or UP SD70Ms, AC44s, and the like.

[Anonymous]

This is only a small part of the overhead picture, but surely there are times that a brand-new loco needs to be "delivered" to a faraway division of its home road, and a competitor road can get it there less circuitously?

In Rochelle a couple of weeks ago I saw a couple of shiny-new BNSF locos sandwiched in between two UP locos on the UP (no pix, sorry). Even at Rochelle, one doesn't see UP and BNSF cooperating all that much, though both BNSF and UP meld quite well with the eastern roads. I also see a fair amount of CN on the UP.

The one road I don't see any of is CP -- have they exempted themselves from the general Power Desk pool??

[fuzzybroken]

I regularly see foreign power on the CP here in Milwaukeeland. CSX and NS power are common, as well as the lease-junk that each uses. Occasionally BNSF power shows up here as well, although that seems to be much less common. Same for UP on CP. CN power comes into the Milwaukee yard, although that's on trackage rights, and BNSF has trackage rights to the Columbia power plant near Portage (not in Milwaukeeland), so a set of BNSF power is regularly at Portage.

My guess is that CP repays its HP-hours on different lines, to try to keep the fleet close to home, so that's probably why you don't see so much of CP's power on foreign lines.

-Mark
www.fuzzyworld3.com

[edblysard]

Asked today, trainmaster told me to call the chief clerk, who is off today...go figure.

I do know that when we borrow them, we have to replace the fuel we used.

Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

Please do Ed. I would apriciate it.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Here on the UP system you will every once in a while see other Railpower here on the UP. The ONL:Y Railroad that you will see on the East-West Main on the point is UP Locomotives.
Allan.

Maybe where you are from, but out west there are foreign line units on the point quite often.


Virlon
Save your ticket.....the P.E. will rise again.

[chad thomas]

And as far as CP power on the UP, CP is the most common foreign power on the UP in the Columbia river george because of there connection with CP on the old Spokane International line.

[daveklepper]

As discussed in a previous posting, while there is far more run-trhough sharing of power in this diesel age, it did exist to some extent with steam: CP Pacifics often hauled the Allouette and the Red Wing through into North Station, Boston; and the Boston-Bangor trains sometimes did not swap power (Boston and Maine to Maine Central) at Portland. Power on the jointly owned Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Line was rented from the two owning railroads, and occasionally this meant a Wooten-firebox Reading 4-6-2 would show up at Broad Street and later at 30th Street! The B&O trains ran through with their own power over the Reading and Central RR of NJ into Jersey City and the Reading over the CNJ. The Central Vermont used a lot of Canadian National steam and also pooled power with the Boston and Maine between Montreal and Springfield, Massachussetts, but then the New Haven always changed out the power at Springfield for the run to New Haven. During the John L. Lewis coal strike, Southern diesels took over the passenger runs between Bristol and Lynchburg. I am sure there are a lot more, in the South and West.

[railroadnut675]

if a train went from Tampa to Houston (CSX) it would have to reload on fuel , duh

[kenneo]

Usually -- but not always --- each road keeps track of locomotive use hours on the basis of - shutdown - idle - road (in train or switching service). At the end of each month, the using road sends a check to the owning road. The rate can vary depending on whether it is an AAR flat rate or a contract rate. Don't know the flat rate. When the unit is returned to the owner, it gets it with a full tank.

Other method --- leased units. You own the unit, I need it, I pay you rent. Sometimes maintainence is included, sometimes not. Fuel almost never is included.

In Ed's situation, the HBT probably has a mutual use agreement where the "foreign roads" supply power to get trains in and out of his yard. The HBT can use the loco if it needs to. Whether it is used by HBT or not, Ed gets to fuel the motors prior to departure if that is included in the agreement (usually is, but depends). The foreign roads can use HBT units in like manner.

[KOWENG110]

Many years ago, I read that railroads often have new locomotives taken out of the state of manufacture by another road for delivery in another state to avoid state taxes; e.g., CB&Q buys LaGrange-built unit from EMD but has ATSF or MILW or someone else take the unit into Iowa for delivery to CB&Q. I don't know whether or not this practice continues.
Bear

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

In Ed's situation, the HBT probably has a mutual use agreement where the "foreign roads" supply power to get trains in and out of his yard. The HBT can use the loco if it needs to. Whether it is used by HBT or not, Ed gets to fuel the motors prior to departure if that is included in the agreement (usually is, but depends). The foreign roads can use HBT units in like manner.

Before Ed hunts you down and uses you for a hood ornament on his Magnum,[;)], be advised that he works for PTRA. HB&T was dissolved several years ago.

Paul

[edblysard]

Wouldn’t dream of it!
That’s a common mistake made often.
The HB&T was a joint Santa Fe MoPac venture...then BNSF UP...
It was a belt line, ran all the way around the city in a loop, served many of the downtown industries...but as the industries left downtown for the suburbs, their business base went away.

They were wholly owned by BNSF/UP, and when the decision to dissolve it HB&T came along, the assets of the railroad was split between the two...UP got the north side, BNSF the south side of the city...UP got East Yard and Settagast, Milby street yard, Booth and Basin yards...BNSF got Old South Yard, New South Yard trackage rights...

The PTRA, on the other hand, is owned by several enties...most notably the Port Authority, The Navigation district, and the City of Houston.

We offered neutral switching services to any railroad, at one time, our member lines were Rock Island, MoPac, UP, Santa Fe, TexMex, IGN, The Katy, , pretty much all the class ones.

At one time, there were 18 different railroads serving Houston.

Current members are TexMex, UP and the BNSF.

We run down both sides of the Houston Ship Channel and provide the switching services to all of the industries located there.

We also serve the Barbors Cut intermodel facility.

This keeps all the other railroads from trying to build lines into a limited space.

This also prevented the industries from becoming "captured" by any one railroad.

We do the spotting and pulling from their plants, and provide interchange service to the railroad of their choice at three of our major yards.

The Navigation District owns the real estate; the Port Authority owns the buildings and the tracks and locomotives.

The City of Houston, of course, is the Navigation District and the Port Authority.
We receive our operating budget from the city.

When the Houston Ship Channel was built, we were created for just this purpose, been around sine 1924.

Our first yard, North Yard, was built adjacent to the Turning Basin and the city public docks and the public grain elevator.

Manchester Terminal, our second major yard, served the Steamship lines that used the channel...we had a short time with passenger service, along with the freight service, we also served Hughes Tool Works, which made ammunition and shells during WWII.

Passenger service disappeared quite quickly, as the passenger liners of the time were far too large to navigate the channel past Galveston Bay.

First power was a 0-6-0 steam switcher, with saddle tanks.
First year revenue was under $5000.00
First year car movement was under 1000 cars.

We charge each member line on a per car per switch basis, and the industries we serve the same way, along with in plant switching service.

Sadly, HB&T, and the history they had, is long gone.

We are rarely noticed by the raifan press, we don’t have many places where the public can see us, unless you work along the ship channel.

Trains magazine had an article a few years ago, by a freelance writer, fairly accurate in terms of car loading and revenue dollars.

But most folks assume we are part of, or are, the HB&T, because they did, and still do get a fair amount of press.

Type HB&T into your search engine and you get several fan sites and photos...type PTRA, you get our business webpage, and almost no photos.

One other thing that often adds to the confusion is our motive power.

We, along with the HB&T ordered 35 MK1500Ds in 1996 as a joint order to MK Rail, now Motive Power.

PTRA received the 9601 thru 9624, the HB&T the 9625 thru 9634, all delivered in 1996, all in the same basic blue paint with silver stripes.

When HB&T was dissolved, the BNSF got the MK1500s as part of the deal.

http://membrane.com/~elmer/rail/units/mpi_new.html
is a good link for MK rails builds...note the MK1500s are built on old GP frames.

Subsequently, UP leased from CEFX a fleet of MK1500 and MK2000s, marketed under license from EMD as the New GP 15 and GP20.
The New GP 20 is still in the EMD catalog.


Simply put, if you are shipping into the Houston Ship Channel area, or are a business along the channel, we are "the railroad".


Ed

[chad thomas]

Thanks for the run down Ed. Did you find out what the HP/hr rates are? I don't need exact figures, I'm just really curious what the ballpark figure would be.

[edblysard]

Chad,
The clerk said he would have to ask the super if he could tell me..., put me on hold, then came back and said he couldnt provide me with that information.
Seems there is a different contract with each of our member lines, and my management dosnt want the amounts made public.

Thinking about it, and that makes some sense...not a lot, but some.

I doubt its a big difference, or a large amount...borrowing the member lines locomotive is a common thing, and during our business breifings, the cost of doing so is never mentioned...although we do get operating expenses, and I imagine its included there.
Sorry,
Ed

[chad thomas]

Well Ed I certainley don't want anyone to get in trouble. But hey, thanks for trying.

[dharmon]

All them dern furrin lokimotives are stealin jobs from good old merican engines.......