Unprotected Crossings. NOT A GOOD IDEA. No gates, no flashing lights, no sound, no warning at all.

[BigJim]

QUOTE: He said that the Locos should blow the horn 3/4's of a mile from the crossing

Bull, I've never seen a whistle board more than 1/4 mile from a crossing. Again the new FRA rules limit the length of horn blowing, trying to keep it between 15 - 20 seconds in duration.

[route_rock]

long long short LOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG doesnt work, ditch lights and mars lights dont work, me flagging a crossing dont work. Know what does? DARWINISM[}:)][}:)][}:)] If they are too dumb to stop then so be it. Let em get hit. Too lazy to look? well guess what pal you just got on the train to glory cause Z trains ( heck any train) do not stop on a dime for you to say " Boy was that dumb"

[agentatascadero]

I believe NEC has no grade crossings. The vast majority of grade crossings in the US are private, with crossbucks or less for protection. Even with protection, you have disasters like the fuel truck in Florida stuck on the tracks, or the steel truck in Illinois which crashed through gates, lights and bells, as I recall, to kill more than a dozen AMTRAK passengers. There is no substitute for caution, and all the protection in the world does not and will not stop the Yahoos who cra***he gates.....

[Anonymous]

WARNING DEVICES AND A BAD ACCIDENT

JimiTrain referred to some crossing as not having any warning devices to warn motorist approaching a grade crossing. It would be assumed “cross buck” signs would be present at every railroad crossing to warn a motorist of an impending railroad crossing. It would also be presumed that most states would prescribe in state statues the requirement of having posted signs to warn motorist of a railroad crossing.

In approaching a railroad crossing a motorist would assume the risk when crossing a railroad track since the train itself has the right of way. In another sense lawsuits by motorist who have had collisions with trains tries to prove otherwise.

If someone wants to require signal devices, as in flashing lights and crossing gates, at every grade crossing, then who pays the railroad and the local government or just one of the entity’s?

The busiest of grade crossings will usually get the flashing signals and cross gates. Recently near Augusta, Kans. BNSF has installed new signal lights and crossing gates on two grade crossings. The roads leading up to the crossings are gravel and are not very well traveled. This is on the BNSF’s transcontinental line from LA to Chicago. Several years ago two people were killed at one of the crossings, a grandfather and his granddaughter.

On two private crossings of the BNSF transcontinental line near Augusta stop signs have been erected for vehicles crossing the tracks.

Everyone has their crossing accident stories and this story is probably no different. I was in junior high when one accident happened and it really sticks in ones mind after viewing the car. In the 1960’s a Corvette was traveling on a paved road at a high rate of speed toward the main line of the Katy Railroad. This was on the north edge of Parsons, Kansas. It was moonless night when the Corvette passed under a tank car. The conductor on the caboose related that he saw the highlights of the car pass from one side of the train to the other. It was as though the car passed through the train. The car continued down the road as the car slowed and then rolled into the ditch along side of the road.

The top of the Corvette was sheared off but the rest of the car was barely damaged. The two male occupants of the car were decapitated. My dad and I went to look at the Corvette as many other curious people did when it was brought to a local salvage lot.

The crossing did not have any flashing light signal or crossing arm gates. It had the cross buck warning sign for a railroad crossing and that was all. Needless to say shortly after the accident warning lights and crossing arm gates were installed.

Today the same road is now a by-pass around the north side of Parsons for US 400 highway. A bridge has been constructed to go over the now Union Pacific (formerly Katy) tracks.

[Anonymous]

Ten or twelve years ago one objection to electrifying the Chicago - Detroit route and trying to bring it up to mid-Sixties "Metroliner" standards (when there were indeed grade crossings in Maryland), was that supposedly the crossbuck and gate couldn't recognize the difference between a passenger train going 90-110 mph or the more typical freight going at half that speed, 45-55 mph.

In this day of global positioning, cab signalling, CTC, etc., I simply refuse to believe that a gate can't be in connection with SOMETHING that would put it into operation twice the distance for a passenger train as for a freight, with the result that the waiting interval before either train enters the crossing would be the same -- 30 seconds or whatever.

This country has a real "can't do" mentality when it comes to improving its rails, especially passenger. The Japanese solved problems during LBJ's administration that are supposedly insoluable today. BULL! [8]

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainster1073


I understand what you all are trying to say and indefinentaly agree!! My opinion is that if it's a private crossing it should have a RR crossbuck and the Trains that cross should have to blow there horns like BNSFGP38 said long, long, short, long. Then for public RR crossings, the RR should at least have Lights and the trains should blow their horns again. If they have gates even better but they should at least have the minimum. PLUS my cousin told me because he is training to be a brakemen for UP. He said that the Locos should blow the horn 3/4's of a mile from the crossing and have their bell on when they are crossing the road. So watch for that and see if the engineers were you live to that. Cause I know they don't do that at every RR crossing like they are suppose to.

Dustin

1st thing you need to learn is what a private crossing is. and this is a crossing that is used by the land owner going to his house or his feilds etc it is not used by the public only the land owner family. And to make it easier for you to understand my attitude I am a engineer for the NS. I will not blow for a private crossing, if there is no whistle board i wont blow. even if the farmer is about to cross in front of me. Now if there is a public crossing comming up i start blowing 1/4 mile from the crossing of at least 15 sec. from the crossing. and i do 2 longs a short and 1 long held til you are thru the crossing. Now if some one is on the crossing that is fine i wont even slow down til i hit them . simple enough after i hit them i put it in emergency. and stop. you have alot to learn about railroading from your cousin and he even has alot more to learn.

as far as crossing go if they dont want to stop and look both ways before crossing the tracks then they deserve to get hit.

[Anonymous]

Tell it like it is, wabash1 ! [;)]

And while I'm on the subject, I spent some time along the Sou. Transcom. last week and noticed that some of the non-flashing-light intersections had a Yield sign under the crossbuck! [B)]

Wasn't sure if these were "little country lanes" or purely private crossings, but surely the STOP sign listed above makes more sense? It's not like the driver is trying to blend into the rail pike, after all . . . [8D]

[Anonymous]

I recall some signs from just after the war in the steam era that signaled a bright red and black roaring steamer hurtling at the car waiting at a crossing.

Above is the caption "You choose: Life or death"

The whistles is a life saving device and not to properly use it will cost us some lives.

Should these lost lives be written off as unsuitable for the genetic pool? Perhaps.

Look Listen and Live.

[Anonymous]

Do we need more crossing protection? Yes--people are dying, and it's not good for anybody (remember, the railroad has to repair the presumably bent pilot of the locomotive). But, in all reality, this is not going to happen on a larger scale than it happens now anytime soon. What can be done immediately? LOUDER WHISTLES AND BELLS!!!!

When I was volunteering at the C&TSRR a few weeks ago, locomotive 488 has one heck of a whistle! Modern diesels on the mainline have NOTHING on this 80-year-old steamer's whistle. Standing next to it at the crossing, the thing was more than deafening. Additionally, is it just me, or have bells become quieter? Make them louder--both whistles and bells--much louder! Noise will take care of most of those who don't want to die. We still would need to deal with those that do, however.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[BN U30C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

Geesh is it really that hard to look both ways before crossing tracks? I say let darwinism take over.
I do like that moat idea. [oX)]

Talking about Darwin. Check out the link (pic of insane dude driving truck over crossing tracks)>>> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=40516

[:O][xx(][banghead][X-)][oX)][oops][sigh][zzz]

[fuzzybroken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

the train has to stop; blow up and then proceed at 10MPH.

Holy cow! Perhaps you should clarify this statement!

I have mixed feelings on the items presented in this topic. While I do not agree that EVERY crossing needs to have higher levels of protection, I think that some other forms of protection are virtually useless. e.g. the Yield sign with a crossbuck, in my experience many people think that a Yield sign means "I don't have to stop" so they fly right through it without looking, like the motorists I almost t-boned the other day at the 6th Street roundabout in Milwaukee. Somebody ignoring a Crossbuck Yield creates the potential for much more disastrous results.

Nonetheless, I think that a stop sign-crossbuck combination can be an effective grade crossing protection, provided that the road is at a near 90-degree angle to the tracks, which unfortunately is not always the case. This is especially a concern to me, as I drive a pickup truck with a cap, which severely limits visibility at certain angles. While many road intersections are being redesigned to similar standards, grade crossings seem to be lagging behind.

-Mark
www.fuzzyworld3.com

[dekemd]

There are several PUBLIC road crossings in my county that only have crossbucks. No bells, no lights, no gates. I did some checking and in the last 5 years there have been 4 car/train collisions in my area. Of those four only one was at a crossbuck only crossing. The other three were at crossings that had lights, bells, and gates. Just looking at the numbers it seems that adding more protection makes things worse. Of course we know that it doesn't, but as you can see, adding more protection does not necessarily reduce accidents. The money just isn't there for grade separation. The only way to really decrease accidents is to increase driver awareness and change driver's attitudes (grade separation would probably be easier).

I drove through one of our unprotected crossing the other day. It was a road that I hadn't traveled in a while and was actually surprised to see it only had crossbucks as it is a fairly well used road. The sight lines were badly obstructed by the terrain. It would send the M&M twins into a fit. You know what I did? I pulled up, turned the radio down, rolled down the windows, and actually stopped. Amazing isn't it? I didn't hear anything, so I creeped up until I could see, and once I saw it was clear, proceeded across. Why did I do all that? Because I didn't want to DIE!!! My life is worth more than the 15 seconds it took to do all that.

Stop, look , listen, live. It really is that simple.

[Anonymous]

On a small road near I-66 in Northern Va lies a railcrossing on a curve in some woods.

We truckers used to go thru the routine of turning on the CB radio, sorting out the number 1 driver in our batch, sorting out who is where Northbound and South bound and finally the actual status of that crossing.

Half a mile from the curve we relied on the opposite side to inform us of if the lights are on and the gates are down as we came around the last curve slowing as we went.

It was a ritual every morning. And that crossing was very busy. Sometimes you arrive earlier in your daily run and no one is there to assist you via radio, then you slowed way down and became the "Number one" for other truckers coming to that crossing.

When it rained, fog or snowed.. the danger level shot up. Everyone was deadly serious about making it thru that rail crossing alive back in the day.

[daveklepper]

I thought there were FRA rules on this sort of thing. That above a certain speed, gates were mandetory, and a zone where flashing lights are sufficient and further speed restrictions without either. In BNSF violating a Fed guideline on this? If anyone knows of a similar situation on the UP between Omaha and Ogden, I'd be interested in learning about it.

There are weather conditions where it is difficult for motorist to see a train at a great distance. Are there speed restrictions across these crossings when such conditions exist?

[daveklepper]

Also, it is relatively easy to design track circuits that can provide speed sensitivity. Here is how:

Each side of the crossing has two track circuit blocks, and there is a fifth at the crossing and a couple of car lengths each side as well, for five track circuits associated with the crossing, lengths dependent on the actual speeds.

When a train approaches the first track circuits, the gates don''t go down immediately. Instead, a timer is set in motion, and the time to the second track cirtcuit is counted. If the time is short, then the speed is high, and entering the second circuit immediately lowers the gates and flashes the lights. If the time is long and the speed is slow, then a second timer delays the flashing lights and the gates. To raise the gates, the train must enter the track circuit at the crossing and then clear it completely. And the gates will then stay down with the train of the fourth and fifth sections until the train is clear of the fifth section which arms the whole system to accept another train on this track. This is a bidirectional approach. If there are mutliple tracks, the exact same system is used on all tracks, and any gate lowered control has precedence over any raise the gates control signal.

This can all be done with very simple relays and timers, and can be handled by a good digital processor with memory and backup.

[Anonymous]

I had a feeling that speed-sensitive signals would not be such a big deal. Thanks for the explanation.

Trouble is, "the powers that be" are still stuck back in the 1920s or whenever the golden age of mechanical relays was.

If you've got a "death crossing" in the community, COMPLAIN. Complain, complain to the railroad, gov't (all levels), the press, and get your friends and fellow sufferers to complain. At the very least, you'll make people aware of the problem.

[dekemd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626


If you've got a "death crossing" in the community, COMPLAIN. Complain, complain to the railroad, gov't (all levels), the press, and get your friends and fellow sufferers to complain. At the very least, you'll make people aware of the problem.

What constitutes a "death crossing"? I'm not the most well travelled person in the world, but I've only seen one crossing that would be truly dangerous without lights and gates. It is a mountain road that goes through a cut in a hill with the crossing at the end. The hill blocks sight lines so bad that you about have to have the front of the car in the red zone to see down the tracks, and the hill also limits the sound of the horns. That is the only crossing that I've seen that using the stop, look, listen method may not be completely safe. I'm sure there are others, but the vast majority of crossings are safe if drivers weren't so impatient that they can't take the 15 seconds it takes to make sure it is safe to cross.

[Anonymous]

Okay, maybe the term "death crossing" was a little melodramatic, but the earlier description of the Northern Virginia crossing (near I-66) was a classic example.

We can't trust the FRA, nor the media, nor certainly the railway companies themselves to be proactive and seek out the crossings that account for a disproportionate number of deaths and injuries. The people who post on this thread are generally much-better-than-average informed citizens and we know what trees to start shaking, and when.

Come to think of it, dekemd, it seems you know an excellent example of a "death crossing." Why do you suppose nothing's getting done about it??

[wctransfer]

You know how "back then" they had stop signs , instead of cross bucks, they should do that again!

Alec

[mudchicken]

No such animal as FRA mandated crossing protection above a given speed. Your local PUC/Corporation Commission/RR Commission is the arbiter. There are suggested guidelines (suggested, not mandatory) from AASHTO/AREMA/DOT out there, but the highway & street maintenance bubbas are blissfully unaware of. The public agencies are the ones needing howled at; they continue to stick their heads in the sand as soon as the $$$$ issue comes up.

In my career, I am aware of at least two incidents where shortline railroads tried to modify crossings without consulting with the local PUC's. They both took the extra protective gear down under threat of lawsuit. The bigger railroads have folks who know the drill and won't make a move w/o consulting with the State PUC rep.

Smalling: Leave FRA and the Railroads alone for a while. The highway engineers and your legislators have fallen flat on their faces and let the public down. The arrogance and ignorance from public officials regarding the financial responsibility of paying for protection and maintenance of at-grade crosssings is nothing short of galling.

The media and the ambulance chasers are clearly in bed with each other. (RE:Castle Rock)

[daveklepper]

Again, does anyone know of similar unprotected crossings on the UP main Ogden - Omaha?

This may be one area where the UP has done its homework better than the BNSF.

[Anonymous]

Just one little point: there's nothing wrong with relays. Everything which a computer can accomplish in railway signaling can be done with a bank of relays. Out on the line, relays are still prevalent because they are durable.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[dekemd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626


Come to think of it, dekemd, it seems you know an excellent example of a "death crossing." Why do you suppose nothing's getting done about it??

Nothings being done about it because it hasn't been a problem. I've checked back through all the records I could find as well as the local newspaper archives and cannot find a single accident at that crossing.

[mudchicken]

DOT# on that "crossing" ?

Just because there is (or isn't) a crossbuck at the crossing DOES NOT determine if that crossing is a public crossing.

I'd love to have a nickel for everytime I encountered a situation where an agridummy/rancher/farmer destroyed a signal mast or crossbuck with his illegal wide load combine as it went across a crossing (and then would not 'fess-up" to knocking over all the signs).....Stewards of the land? - NOT!

[zardoz]

In Pleasant Prairie (Kenosha county) there is a unprotected (crossbucks only) crossing on DOUBLE TRACK. This track is home to 16 Amtrak trains (79mph) plus 10-15 freights per day (up to 60mph).

This crossing is just north of hwy M, and just south of hwy 165, just west of hwy H. I believe it is a "private crossing" in that the road is dedicated for a hunting club; however, it IS a road open to the public.

I'm just waiting to hear about a nasty on that crossing. Someday, a train is going to just clear the crossing as another one is coming, hidden from view by the first train.....

[zapp]

I work for UP,and I've had quite a few crossing accidents in my short ten year career. My father,on the other hand, was a hogger for ICRR and NEVER had a crossing accident.
I work out of the Dallas/Ft Worth area (that probably has alot ot sdo with it!!) and I'm hear to tell ya,I don't care what kind of protection you put at a crossing someone is still going to get hit at that crossing.
Why should the railroads and state pay for our inability to law ourselves? We all had to pass some sort of drivers test,right? Was that part of the test,railroad crossings?
It's all a matter of mathematics, 2000 lbs. vs 19,000 tons...

[tree68]

I had exactly the same thought as dekemd just the other day - adding all the bells, whistles, lights, and gates to a crossing may (in certain circumstances) actually be bad. Witness the incident where a RR tech allegedly left a jumper in place that prevented the gates from operating. Since people are used to the warning device, if it fails, they assume that it means it hasn't been activated...

That doesn't mean that all the gear is bad, but it is a thought.

Short of the steel plates (a la Roadrunner & Wile E. Coyote) that I "suggested" in an earlier thread, or the moat, nothing is going to keep the truly dedicated crossing runner from meeting his maker on the coupler of a locomotive.

Seems like I've read, and I'm pretty sure I've seen, crossing detector circuits that detect the speed of the oncoming train, most likely by microprocessors. Case in point: a local sometimes stops about 50 yards short of a certain crossing so they can run into the convenience store located there for a snack, etc. The gates, etc, activate as they approach, but when they stop, the gates go back up. When they leave again, they start their roll, the system detects it, and lowers the gates again.

[daveklepper]

I agree relays can do everything solid state can do. The question of which to use should depend on the particular environmental conditions that the control circuits face where they are located. Both have advantages. The biggest advantage of solid state is much less power drain, so for solar energy or wind power it is probably the choice. The beggest advantage of relays is in trouble shooting. If there is a problem, you can see what it is. With solid state, most of the time all you can do is throw the whole bloomin' mess out and put in a new black box. This means all safety related solid-state siwtching systems should have automatic back-up. Relays also take up a lot more space, but at railroad crossings this usually isn't a problem. Inside the typical light rail or mu car it usually is a problem.

[mudchicken]

PMD motion detectors obviated the speed issue long ago.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Most minimally protected (crossbucks only) grade crossings with which I'm familiar are either low-speed or low-traffic locations. They are usually industrial leads and flagging by the crew is required by the Special Instructions in the employee timetable. Lights and gates are not really necessary at these spots.

Grade crossings in Elmhurst IL have dividers on the center lane of the roadway extending about a carlength or two away from the tracks to discourage people from trying to drive around lowered gates.