Funny: I don't FEEL like a criminal

[croteaudd]

It may be sticking the neck out too far, but somehow I’ve got a very gut feeling Osama and Saddam will be gone within a year, and all this debate will be supplanted by a much more non-threatening world for both railroader and railfan alike.

[Anonymous]

I hope so- we can start enjoying ourselves properly again.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

James:
There were few photos of trains taken during WW II in some cases because of security, but there are other reasons. Film was not available, most railfans (civilian or military) were otherwise occupied, and most of the good sites may not have been accessible because of gasoline rationing.

There were few, if any, restrictions on photographing trains during the Korean or Viet Nam conflicts, and Desert Storm was short lived, so plenty of train photographs were taken during those eras. There was a brief peiod when railfans were hassled for photographing trains during the Korean conflict, but it didn't last long, and it was very short lived.

During the Korean Conflict most of the railroads were cooperative with railfans by running fan trips and conducting tours of their facilities, etc.

[Anonymous]

The funny thing is this is at a freight railroad. Near my home along the Northeast corrider you can watch the trains. No one has come up to me in these post Sept. 11th days and done anything. And these are passenger trains with people. They rather protect goods than people. Which seems weird.

[citidude]

Well, maybe we should bring our cell phones so that we can report similar incidents if we observe them.

[Anonymous]

2+2=WHAT?

They tell us, citizens, to be alert and watch. Which is what RR Fans do! But now if we do we may be criminals???????

No one wants to protect a RR more than a RR Fan. I feel more than meets the eye is going on as we get our freedoms eroded - I hate politics, and deceit.

Let's try to still have FUN with RailRoading and stick together.

[Anonymous]

Yes, those who have cell phones should do so. Not everybody is so equipped though.

[mccannt]

I, for one, have absolutely no intention of slowing down or restricting my railfan activities.

I may choose not to visit certain locations that seem more sensitive, such as the edges of rail yards, but I will make up for this by spending more time in places that are easily, safely and legally accesible, such as public platforms at train stations or public parking areas adjacent to rail lines. I and many other railfans can get good info or take good photos without putting our liberties at risk.

We should not fear to pursue our hobby, but we should, at least, exercise a bit more common sense about where we pursue it. If it means we don't go to certain locations at Tehachapi or Cajon or Donner for a while, so be it.

Our railfan meccas will still be there after the current excitement fades. If we exercise common sense now, we will still be able to go to them.

[edblysard]

Get after it Thomas,
Every day and every time you fans dont watch us rails is one more day the morons have cut into the very reason America has survived this long.
200+ years isnt that long for a country to exsist, but all 200 is based on the simple idea that the the rights of the individual citizen are more important than the wishes of the state.
Hats off to you and your friends, and you can take pictures of me and my train anytime you want to.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Several friends and myself plan weekend trips all over the midwestern part of the country to catch railroad action, We have been questioned several times in the last year. Our local railroad (KCS) usally just waves at us, most of them know us, we have been watching them for over 10 yrs. Never had any problems yet. But things are changing

[edblysard]

Hey Red,

Yeah, things are, but when you see 5 ole corn fed midwestern looking guys standing trackside, in front of their old Dodge van, each one with a still camera, maby one with a video camera, four waving and one trying to get you to blow the horn, all wearing grins from ear to ear, ya just gotta wave back. Now if it was five guys dressed in suits, wearing turbans and beards, in front of a brand new mercedes, with a video camera that would make a tv news crew drool, all five looking real serious, well then I'll worry.
When the average cats like you and me quit doing what we love to because of fear of our own law enforcement people, well, then, the America I grew up in is already gone.

[wabash1]

well ed it sounds like ou are stereo-typing this very well, but the real deal is the info i have is its regular looking people doing the info gathering and then passing it on to the turbin wearing ones. i wont tell you wear i get my info but to only say he isnt a rail fan or anything to do with railroads other than knowing me. i will say this any person i dont recognize will be reported. the truth is its my job i might protect and maybe mylife or one of my co-workers

[edblysard]

Hey J,
I guess that wasn't as funny as I thought. As for a "fifth column", well, if we lock up everyone with a mid-eastern background or ties to that region, you would have to detain several million people.
We live in an open society, by choice and design. There is no way we could close our borders, none what so ever. Christ man, the DEA has a budget in the hundreds of millions, and they cant even make a dent in the dope smugglers business, how do you think we could stop these guys from getting in?. What they did sept 11, was as much a political statement as an act of war. They said "look, we can hurt you any time we want to". And the truth is, yes, they can. But they also affected a fundmental part of the America way of life, they have forced us to start "watching" ourselves, as much or more so than we watch everyone else. And while we're busy chasing foamers away from the tracks, they will do something as absurd and unbeliveable again.
As far as I am concerned, on sept 12th, every ship in the US Navy, every US Marine and any piece of hardware the Air Force could get in the air should have been on its way to Afganistan, and from the 13th on, anything that moved within the borders of that country should have been shot. By the 15th, we would "own" that place. Yes, harsh, but so was flying aircraft into civilian occupied buildings. We would have set an example to the rest of the world, that if you come into our country, and do such things, the response will be swift and the price will be higher than you will wi***o pay.
Teddy Roosevelt was right, "walk softly, but carry a big stick". As for sterotyping, my neighbor across the street is a musilum, and he lives here by choice. Yes, he is a citizen, for the last 3 years he has proudly called himself an American, when it was time to vote this year, he and his wife asked me and mine to go with them, because they had no real idea how it works. If you could have seen the look on their faces when we finished, you would have been as proud of this country as I am. They were shaking when we left, because for the first time in their lives, they had a choice in who leads them, a voice in what happens in their county. They were amazed that you just walk in and vote, no police checkpoints, no guards, nothing. He brought their citizenship papers, their old green cards, crap, the guy had a folder an inch thick with documents. He didnt belive me when I said all he needed was his drivers license and voter id card.
So heres the deal J, you have the right to chase fans away from the tracks, call the gumshoes, whatever floats your boat, but I dont agree with you.
And that, my friend, is whats great about this country, we can agree to disagree.
If watching trains became illeagal, then me and my turbaned friend will fight to the death to defend your rights to do and feel as you do.
But in a sense, the terrorist have already won, because they succeded in bringing the fight here, they have us questioning us, watching each other, when the fight shouldn't be here, the fight should be there, at the source.
I like America just like she is, I dont think we need to "fix" anything. I like railfans, I like ham raido operators, model train builders, birdwatchers and sea shell collectors. I love living in a country where you can get you wife and kids in the car, and just drive around for no reason at all, just because you want to get out of the house for a afternoon.
I have lived in a closed society, with internal passports, tapped phones, among people afraid to speak whats on their mind because the guy in the seat next to you might work for the "state police", and if he dosn't, he might just report what you said anyway, because thats the way they live over there. I have never been as happy as I was when I stepped onto good old east Texas mud again.
If you want to, you can burn the flag of my country, the supreme court said you own it, and you have the right to do with it as you see fit. I will defend your right to do so, but know this.
No matter how many flags you burn, no matter how many train watchers you turn in, no matter how hard you try, there will always be people like me who belive the rights of the citizens, the "inalienable right to excerise the full protection given to them by the Constitutuion of the United States" have, and allways will, come before the wishes of the state.
Now we have just about run this one into the ground, so if you respond, great, I'll read it, but I won't respond. As I said, you have your point of view, I have mine. I agree to disagree with you, but I think we should let it lay, and get on with what we both love to do, railroading.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen,
This whole discussion seems to be missing a couple of very important points. That is not to say that we should not be willing to make sacrifices for the common good of all, but we should never sacrifice basic liberties, or waste our sacrifices on pointless dirty tricks perpetrated by industrial organizations.

I would question the Americanizm of anyone who presumes to judge another's activities as "Frivolous", "Wierd", "Unusual", etc., and therefore not worthy of equal protection of the law.

What America has always been about - is liberty. The legally protected right to do as you please, so long as you respect the rights of others. I once fought in battle for this, and will again - if I have to.

President Bush explicitly told America after 9/11 to continue on with our activities as usual - do not alter them - do not let the terrorists win! I intend to continue doing just that! The A.A.R. be damned!

This whole thing did not start with 9/11, or the government. It started months later due to the Association Of American Railroads designing a "Terrorist Profile" that "just so happened" to describe railfans. They know better. They know that taking pictures, or just loitering around to watch a train is normal everyday behavior for millions around the world. There are even popular folksongs about it, even nursery songs. Mothers sing to their sons about it from infancy! The A.A.R. has described an everyday activity as unusual and suspiscious, requiring railroad employees to report every camera or parked car.

The point is that the A.A.R.'s dastardly and spiteful act against railfans is in fact diverting scarce and valuable police and security forces from the hunt for real terrorists. This may actually give them the cover they need to succeed.

We all must write Congress and the President to warn them of this serious "Error" - The A.A.R. must be seriously REPRIMANDED. They have in fact dishonored the President's council to the nation, have created a grave new security threat, and have abridged the rights of millions while doing it.

Isn't that what the 9/11 terrorists were trying to do all along? !

RmC.

[edblysard]

Hi RmC,
Agreed, and so far it seems they are winning.
And I think I touched upon equal protection under the law, if I didnt, well, thats the whole idea, the same law that allows one point of view, has to, by the very nature of "law" protect other points of view. And its back to the whole question of who polices the police?
And in that light, either everyone can stand beside the tracks taking pictures, or no one can. Who decides?
Ed

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with one of Wabash's earlier posts. I don't want anybody taking my picture while I'm working. I have spoke to some foamer know it alls and that frankly put a bad taste in my mouth. My perception is that they don't give a rip about the lifestyle that we have to live to put on their little railroad show for them. To them we are just faceless drones. All they care about is that shot of that BNSF SD40-2 in the H2 scheme. A few of us have started taking pictures of them as they snap shots of us. Weird when the tables turn, they don't like it. Arm flailing by one guy indicated his unwillingness to be photographed. Now how fair is that, they can take pics of us, but we cannot take pics of them. Annother foamer told me that they don't like to get the crew in the shot, "it ruins it." That really pisses me off! I have a little gift for the next photoshoot: I carry a Richard Nixon halloween mask in my grip. Next time I see the cameras come out, out comes Tricky Dicky! Say cheese.....

[BRAKIE]

Guys,If/when these guys strike again,they will hit with out warning.I don't think they will go and take pictures or anything else.Why should they? All they need to do is get stopped by a train at a crossing and copy down what the tank cars are hauling drive to the next crossing,jump out with a RPG and blow a train up as those tank cars pass by...Quick and easy..So they die no big deal to them as they are heros to their commrades..Sound to easy? It would be that easy-no warning...

[wabash1]

first off i will try not to be long winded here. I maybe didnt make myself clear. i have had bad exsperiances with foamers. but it dont mean i take it out on all foamers. ( i will admit i like to). Sometimes it is nice to see a little boy with his father looking at the trains. heck i let a little boy and his dad on the engien let them release the brakes blow the horn and even dropped the generator field so the kid could play with the throttle. the engine was a sd60 and he had fun making all sorts of noise with it.

Ed i am not sure where i gave you the idea i burn the american flag. If somebody burns a ragged old flag then fine but if they make a mockery of it as to say what they would do to this country then they are going to be on the buisness end of my 12 gage. this may have just been a exsample for the statement that we may disagree but defend each others right to do it. and i solely agree with you on that.

in closing i will say i may have been alittle bold on the statement that you stero typed the previuos post. and it was alittle humorous. but like i said i have a friend and he works with the state department. this is something i wasnt going to say but i guess i must so yo know what i am refering to. the united states doesnt go into battle with out recon. knowing where things are. and that is what is happening here in this country. the regular foamers i dont say anything about but the ones that are in places that nobody in their right mind (including railroaders) would be are the ones i report. Now if i made someones painties get into a bunch i am sorry. but the fact remains i still do my hobbies and i will let other do theirs. and this country still moves ahead no mater what the terroist did. and no matter what they will do in the future we as americans will kick their butts. the best thing is dont mess with the sleeping giant. now i will get off my soap box.

[edblysard]

Ok, sounds like your trying to bury the hatchet too, I didnt say you burned the flag, I said you could, if you wanted to, it not illegal to do so. And I would defend your right to excerise that right, just dont do it in front of me, or I'll excerise my "right: to kick your butt.
On that point we agree.
The point I was trying to get across was that the same laws that protect your right to not wi***o be photographed, also protect the fans right to take pictures of trains. Yes, we've all had a bum experience with fans, me and my crew mooned one who had the nerve to ask us to get off the train so he could photograph the engine.
But we have all had good experiences too, did you feel good turning that kid on to a train? Bet so.
As for intelligence I worked for The Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas, for six years, my dad was a 30year Navy man, my Uncle did 20+ in the Air Force, my sister is a Comissioned Navy Officer. I get it. But the idiots are most likley already here in the US, and have been for sometime. All the homeland security in the world wont stop them, a good intelligence service would have buried it sleepers deep, a long time ago, and if nothing else, these guys seem to have planed things for a long time. And here the problem. If they wanted to, hacking BNSF, UP, or any other carriers system wouldnt be to hard. Just pack a car full of homemade c5, find a crossing where your target car will cross, and drive into it .
How do you guard against something like that?
You cant. These people are religious fanatics, and killing themselves for their beliefs is something they are willing to do.
The best revenge we can inflict, as civilians, is to go about our lives as if they didnt exsist. Deny them the pleasure of knowing they changed anything. Its our way of life they can't stand, maby because they have never experienced anything like it.
And next time you want to get on your soapbox, I'll hold the ladder for you so you can stand there and express your opinions all day long.
Its your right, our constitution says so.
And however much we may disagree on some things, I think we can agree on this.
I love this country,
You love this country,
We are Americans.
Ed

[wabash1]

whew........... now i feel we are both back on the same page...

[Anonymous]

When People fear the Government there is Tyranny

When the goverment fears the People there is LIBERTY!!


LARRY
FLAGSTAFF AZ

[Anonymous]

To quote Billy Bob Thorton (Slingblade)...."I like the way you talk" Ed

[Anonymous]

Having read all posts, and now being thouroughly stimulated, I have to ask these questions. Being an amature and an engineer not of the train sort, I need to know some of the dialect meaning real rail men use.
1) Bull?
2) Foamer??
3) Gumshoe???
I know English pretty well and am learning Ze Deutche, (I too am proudly of German (Note the capital G) descent) but this RR lingo has really got me how do you say, puzzled??

[edblysard]

Hi Again, tough, replyed to your post of 1/9/03, and you got a good collection of answers so far.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Im guessing that most of you are a little older. Being harassed buy the law is not a new thing to me. I had a cop in N Illinois say I was trying to avoid him in a parking lot...I was trying to find a parking spot so I could run and use the bathroom.
Try to expalin to a cop that you and your old lady are driving around in no peticular direction looking for trains , enjoying the radio stations (ours stink), after work at 2A.M. out of state (As were from Milwaukee) and this food store is the only place where I can pee.
And then Im suposed to tell him where I came from....
I guess Im just used to this kind of treatment
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[scole100]

I am a former police officer and still a railfan. I used to run into all sorts of people in the rail yards. A good bit of common sence can go a long way. I made several arrests of people, warrants etc. In these days we must really balance the needs for our safety with the needs for the protection of our rights. I hope we can find that balance soon.

[Anonymous]

Bull= Railroad Police:: Foamer=A railfan that will go to almost any length to see a particular train::Gumshoe=Cop
Cops got the tag "Gumshoe" because they used to wear leather soled shoes but they made a sound when they walked,so, they started wearing soft soled or "Gumshoes"So they could walk and not be heard.

[Anonymous]

Saxman--you are correct on yr FDR quote. the other one you were thinking of is "We have met the enemy & they is us," (as I remember it). It is from the newspaper comiv strip "Pogo" by Walt Kelly.