Cattle by Rail

[CHIPSTRAINS]

[:D]USED TO HAUL COWS, LATE 60'S EARLY 70'S AND I'M TELLEN GREYHOUND RIGHT NOW, THAT I CAN'T EVER REMEMBER HAVING A BUNCH OF COWS ON MY TRUCK, OVER 20HRS., LET ALONE 24.... I HAULED THEM FROM CO. WY. KS., TO AMARILLO, AND THE REASON THAT WE HAULED THEM IN TRUCKS,WAS THAT THE RAILROADS DIDN'T WANT TO FOOL WITH THEM. HAULIN "BULLS" WAS A TOUGH JOB, BUT YOU ALWAYS HAD A "BIG HORSE" THAT WOULD GET YOU DOWN THE ROAD. I DO BELIEVE, HOWEVER, THAT WE ALSO HAD THE SAME RULES ABOUT WATERING AND LETTING THEMOUT. [:D] CHIP

[dustyg]

Thanks for a very enjoyable and informative thread. On a sidetrack... Speaking of the Ft. Worth Stockyards (as some were doing above), one additional item which makes them a pretty nifty tourist destination is the Ft. Worth "Tarantula" Train, a tourist & historical train line operating behind either a vintage diesel or a 100+ year old steam engine, part of the FWW RR. The train begins at Grapevine, runs through and stops at the Stockyards, and continues on across the Trinity River - visit www.tarantulatrain.com for more. A very fun trip.

Dusty Garison

[Anonymous]

To comment on the side track above, I agree the FWRR in Grapevine is a awesome place for the tourist railroad type. There are also plenty of railfaning places here in the metro.

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

Ken,

Assuming you are talking about boxed meat, you might be right, but I would have to see the numbers before I would stick a buck in that venture. Won't go into the number crunching process because I'm sure you know the drill.

By the way, did you know that the IC pulled out of hauling beef in TOFC service over the Iowa lines back about 1970? Different times, but the study did cover the inherent problems associated with handling that kind of business.

Jay

Yes, Jay, I was there when we terminated the reefer trailers. As, you say "Different Times."

We coudn't legally sign a contract with a shipper. IBP wanted to use us to move beef from Sioux Falls to Chicago using their private fleet trailer equipment. But their trucking company "Processed Beef Express" was a "Contract Carrier". We were a "Common Carrier" and the stupid laws didn't allow a contract carrier to use the services of a common carrier. So the government literally ordered the beef back on the highway.

We had to supply equipment on a "first ordered" basis. One day I got a call from a shipper in Indianapolis demanding that we supply him a reefer trailer. He was quoting the Federal reg to me. This nut wanted us to pull a trailer from our regular customer, move it empty (no revenue) to Indy, let him load it to Memphis, then deadhead it back to Chicago. We would have had twice the empty miles as loaded miles for this one *** load.

And we were handling only swinging meat, not boxed. It's pretty much all boxed now.

We did set up a sweet move with the Martrac division of UPS. We took their packages west to Sioux City as dry loads in their reefers, then brought the beef back east. It worked fine until the operating department screwed up the Iowa Division. We lost the loads to the Milwaukee Road Sprint Trains over the Twin Cities ramp. Guy Shively of UPS called me to tell me they were shifting the freight away from us - he told me he thought the ICG operating dept. would be happy with a few less loads to move. That's a Hell of an Attitude for a customer to have about your service.

Things have really changed. The railroads can contract now. There are two person crews on extended districts. (we had to use at least 16 crew people to get a train from Sioux City to Chicago.) The meat is boxed, not swinging carcuses hanging from the roof. Good over the road drivers are hard to come by. And diesel fuel isn't going to get much cheaper.

The return of this freight to the rails is not "If", it's "When".

[Anonymous]

ICG apparently could not leave well enough alone then? With that Milwalkee loads set up I would just let it run as long there is enough equiptment and drivers to keep that gravy train going.

What I dont understand is what did the ICG do to warrant UPS to yank freight? Did they mess with the schedule? Steal the trailers? Short the drivers? Or what? What did it take for UPS to step in and say "That's enough?"

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

ICG apparently could not leave well enough alone then? With that Milwalkee loads set up I would just let it run as long there is enough equiptment and drivers to keep that gravy train going.

What I dont understand is what did the ICG do to warrant UPS to yank freight? Did they mess with the schedule? Steal the trailers? Short the drivers? Or what? What did it take for UPS to step in and say "That's enough?"

Basically it was a failure to recover from weather delays in a timely fashion. We were having a bad winter with lots of snow to clear. Trucking companies like UPS generally understand weather problems since they're operating in the same environment.

What they didn't accept was the situation where our operating people just seemed to give up on running trains in Iowa. It seemed they weren't even trying to move the loads. UPS finnally decided that if we weren't even going to try they would go with someone who would.

The westbound packages were actually going to Sioux Falls. The eastbound meat was originating in Laverne (SP?), Minnesota. We handled the trailers over a Sioux Falls ramp until we abandoned the line into Sioux Falls. UPS then trucked from and to Sioux City. When the service totally collapsed they found it better to use the Milwaukee Road to the Twin Cities and truck out of there instad of Sioux City.

[morseman]

To KJUICE

Noticed you joined the forum on Apr 6/04 & this is your first
posting. What took you so long ??? W E L C O M E

What CPR yard were you referring to ???

When answering my questions you will be well on your
way to your first star.

[Anonymous]

This is one of those commodities whose potential movement by rail could be enhanced by the use of bi-modal equipment, assuming you can concentrate enough boxed carcasses to make up a 125 unit RoadRailer or RailRunner consist, maybe once or twice a week. The quicker modal transfer from truck to rail and rail to truck of bi-modal technology compared to the transfer times of TOFC and COFC could lend its way to staying within the more restrictive time constraints of beef transportation.

That, and building a new freight based High Speed Rail network ought to do the trick!

[daveklepper]

Dave, thanks for the positive thinking. Possibly future business for Triple Crown!

[Anonymous]

IMHO, the problem isn't the it's can't be done but that it can and the railroads don't want to deal with that kind of problem. Bad enough that haz mat materials derail but can you imagine the publicity of have carcasses spread far and wide from a cattle derailment? Not to mention the already posted issued of regulations and storage. Sure moving cattle by rail can be done but do you really expect the class 1's to jump on this band wagon while there is still money to made in them that there intermodle stuff...

[Anonymous]

[:D] Many thanks to all the multifaceted in-depth answers to the original question. While I always considered the speed and cost of trucking to be the main reasons why livestock left the rails, I never realized how many aspects there were that caused the decline. I won't attempt to add to these excellent answers, but I would like to make some comments about the industry when it used to move by rail.

I never knew until recently just how large an operation it was. Thousands of people were involved all over the country. Feed lots where the livestock had to be rested as described in this discussion could be huge, covering dozens of acres. Some of these places had a dozen or more tracks. And they weren't just for loading and unloading livestock. Feed and bedding had to be shipped in. Waste had to be removed. The place had to be cleaned regularly since an outbreak of disease could have far ranging effects. Facilities had to be provided for not just cattle, but for sheep, hogs, and any other kind of livestock being shipped.

At the load origination point, livestock could not be loaded until the locomotive and train crew were ready to go, because once loaded, the clock started ticking for when the rest period was due. In most cases, the livestock had to be hauled to the railsite in trucks, or perhaps in earlier day, driven, since most ranchers were not located on a rail spur. The railroads had detailed standardized plans in different sizes for the livestock pens. These plans listed every last piece of wood and metal that would be needed in its construction.

Livestock cars, while perhaps not the most modern of equipment, was arguably the cleanest. While, granted, during a trip there was undoubtedly a healthy livestock aroma present, between trips the cars had to be sanitized to ward of disease which as noted could spread rapidly and cause widespread disaster. Two basic car designs existed. Single-level cars were primarily for the largest livestock. Two-level cars could carry smaller animals such as sheep and hogs on the upper level in addition to the livestock on the lower level. There were even express livestock cars for hauling race horses that moved in passenger trains.

The term "cowpoke" originated as a term applied to the men who rode with the shipment and during stops would walk the train, poking the livestock with sticks to keep them from lying down or kneeling on the floor. Later, and probably meant to be derogatory, it came to mean "cowboy". The term for the car they traveled in was called a "drovers caboose".

With all the expense all this entailed, it's no wonder that trucks could do it cheaper as described in this topic.

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

This is one of those commodities whose potential movement by rail could be enhanced by the use of bi-modal equipment, assuming you can concentrate enough boxed carcasses to make up a 125 unit RoadRailer or RailRunner consist, maybe once or twice a week. The quicker modal transfer from truck to rail and rail to truck of bi-modal technology compared to the transfer times of TOFC and COFC could lend its way to staying within the more restrictive time constraints of beef transportation.

That, and building a new freight based High Speed Rail network ought to do the trick!

Well, we're not going to build a new rail network.

It is nearly (not totally) impossible to get 125 loads together from one origin to one destination, and you're not going to ship fresh meat once or twice a week.

RoadRailer/RailRunner technology could be used, but there would have to be a good reason. The large beef plants near Amarillo and Denver can, and should, use double stack though existing intermodal terminals and on existing high priority trains. Double stack economics beat RoadRailer economics in such cases.

Carload is a non starter for this one.

RoadRailer/RailRunner technology could be used to serve large beef origins such as Garden City/Dodge City, Kansas that do not have IM terminals. But you couldn't get 125 loads together for one train. The originating trains would have to "feed" the existing intermodal network. The "carless" technology would have to mix with other intermodal equipment. RailRunner can do this. RoadRailer has never understood the problem. (and I got fired trying to explain it to them.)

A really Greyt (that's dog lingo) utilization for RailRunner would be pork from North Carolina into the Northeast. Pork production has a concentration in North Carolina. The obvious market for the dead hog flesh (I like to bake my bacon) is the population concentration from Washington, DC up to Portland, ME.

It would be money in the bank for CSX, just originate a hotshot "Pig" train out of NC
and "drop 'em off" on their way north. Set out the bimodal equipment and have a trucker make the delivery. It'll work every time.

But one more time, Railroads are not marketing companies. CSX isn't going to look a this. It's gonna' take a 3rd party.

[Anonymous]

Very interesting comments on this topic.. You might like to know that in Queensland, Australia, cattle are still moved by rail in 2005 QR took delivery of new cattle trucks only last year. It must be economic only because the whole thing is subsidised by the state government and takes place over long distances.

[Anonymous]

Sorry! In my recent comment I meant new WAGONS not trucks

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by barrym12

Very interesting comments on this topic.. You might like to know that in Queensland, Australia, cattle are still moved by rail in 2005 QR took delivery of new cattle trucks only last year. It must be economic only because the whole thing is subsidised by the state government and takes place over long distances.

So basically, in Australia - there is an "Amtrak for Cattle". Well, why not. It makes just as much sense as the US's "Amtrak for People".

[Anonymous]

Lets get away from trucks and meat for a minute. I have another related question. The cattle cars that I always saw go by here where always right behind the locomotive if loaded, and could be further back in the consist if empty.

Was it a railroad regulation thet they had to be right at the front of the consist if loaded?

Was it the job of one of the head end crew to check on then from time to time?

Any help here?

Happy to see this topic come up.

[Kozzie]

Down here in Queensland, cattle transport by rail is still very much in operation. We have three lines running westward from the Queensland coast which feed down into Brisbane, the state capital, where a good porportion of the meat processing occurs both for domestic use and export. Sometimes as I commute to the city on the suburban network, we paralell run with a very long cattle train, or pass an empty running back out.

Dave

[Anonymous]

The UP move of the CLS train in the HOGX cars lasted till, possibly, as late as 1994, but that's it. I saw cars being loaded in Schuyler, NE and Marysville, KS (I heard that was the very last active rail livestock location in KS, NE had a few) in Feb., 1990.

I used to do an AAR trace of random #'rd HOGX cars back then and they were moving into 1992-93. By '94 though, they were either in storage or being scrapped.

The remaining active stations that UP had in the early 90s had one thing in common - all on very active mains (except I heard one in Gill, CO???). Once the cars were loaded, a few hours later a mainline train picked them up and it was off to the races to L.A.
Because of automatic watering and feeding troughs in the newer HOGX cars, I don't think these hogs were ever taken off the train. They ran thru a "car wash" of sorts in Dry Lake, NV, just before Vegas, but that was it.

As far as processed meat going by rail, don't believe there is very much of that. It may be growing however due to brand new mechanical reefers being built by both UP and BNSF.
There is definetly still some frozen chicken moves going to southeastern ports for export though. Much of it going to Russia. This moves in traditional mechanical reefers, and possibly cryogenic cars. Frozen fish also goes by rail, but often not for human consumption; often it is going to pet food processing plants.

Believe a big fear for the railroads in hauling meat for example is the the enormous liability if there is a claim. Once spoiled, that's 3 tractor trailer loads of meat to dump. What's worse - what if it looks good, transit was fine, but the reefer unit was erratic... Sometimes stopped for a few days, got a good hit in the yard, and restarted...? At the destination however it was temp reading looked good, and the meat was frozen - or refrozen... Takes a lot of consumers to eat 3 tractor trailer loads of meat... That's a lot of sick people calling their lawyers...

Many of the reefers today, if not brand new, have been upgraded though. UP's "ARMNs" for example, with their new Carrier units, satellite tracking in them that constantly monitors temperature, and know if a door was opened anywhere enroute, etc. This does make rail a lot better than it was even just 10 years ago, but old habits are hard to break.

Diesel fuel approaching $3.00 a gallon however, is helping to break them :-)

RR Ray~

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by mudchicken

Farmer John's still gets occasional shipments of porkers via UP in UP Green Livestock cars. Whatever happened to the self watering Pullman Palace livestock cars???

Mudckicken -
You gotta be kiddin' me? Are you sure? Last time I did AAR tracing on those green HOGX cars, it looked like they were all being scrapped. That was back in '94...

There were at least TWO 86' , double decker, high cube, livestock cars that lasted longer into the 90s. (They may still be around, but I haven't found them in the Railway Equipment Register anymore). General American had these 2 cars, stenciled GASX (General American Stock), the same comapny that has/had GARX (General American Refrigerator). They are really known today for what they have always been, GATX, General American Tank Car.

Last I heard in the 90s they were actually still on the rails, but hauling golf carts(!!), not livestock.

Lightweight products, such as auto parts, or in this case, golf carts, can only compete with direct truck if enough of them can be moved. I.e., a 1:1 truck to rail ratio does not work. 2:1, 2 trucks in one rail car sometimes does, such as scrap paper in a boxcar, 3:1, such as reefers of frozen french fries works, and 4:1 ratios such as plastic pellets in covered hoppers works best.

But regarding Farmer John... hard to believe. I don't think there is any equipment left. Canada's fleet was disappearing from the Equipment Register all thru the 90s, Mexico's too now.

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