RR Carriers Bring One-Person Crews to the Table

[jeaton]

I think n_stephenson brings up a good point with his story of the engineer dozing off. A while back I had a 7/24 that could have me on the road at any hour. The hours I put in were not that long, maybe around 40 a week plus some more for travel, but I wasn't short on rest or sleep time. When I got sleepy, I would use all the tricks to stay awake, but sometimes I would just have to pull off and nap for a half hour or so. That is my personal experience, but I think there is enough anecdotal evidence to show that it happens to others, including train engineers.

I bring up a couple of incidents involving engineers. Doug Rydell (Sp?) wrote of dozing off while his train was stopped. He was alone in the cab and when the conductor in the caboose could not wake him up with radio calls, he pulled the air and that noise worked. About a year or so ago, an Amtrak engineer ran a positive stop because he was dozing, but still was able to recycle the alerter. (The crew on the on-coming CSX freight pulled the air and bailed, but both trains were stopped just short of a collision).

Effective accident prevention requires the use of redundant systems where ever possible. The second man in the cab provides that redundancy. That is, two men have to violate a safety rule before an accident will happen. I agree that technology can provide that redundancy. If you have a fail proof system to measure the status of the engineer along with positive speed and automatic signal response systems, the one man cab would probably just as safe as the two man crew setup.

I would have to see a good amount of evidence to convince me otherwise, but I say that in the absence of either the man or the replacement technology, the risk of an "incident" increases. The technology may exists, but it is in place only on a fairly small part of the system. So the question becomes this. Is the added risk acceptable? I would vote no.

Jay

[zardoz]

If the railroads and unions could get together to get rid of the 24/7 on-call BS, perhaps the lack-of-sleep issue would be moot. I know there always needs to be an extra board, but the freight pools could be better organized such that reporting times would be somewhat more predictable.

And with all due respect to the conductors still working, I, too, have been angered by the amount of sleeping by guy in the left seat. And to top it off, those are the guys that seem to view the lay-over time at the hotel as party time, then want to sleep again on the return trip after being awake during layover. I nodded off behind the throttle a few times at around 3am, only to jolt awake and see the conductor also asleep.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

If the railroads and unions could get together to get rid of the 24/7 on-call BS, perhaps the lack-of-sleep issue would be moot. I know there always needs to be an extra board, but the freight pools could be better organized such that reporting times would be somewhat more predictable.

And with all due respect to the conductors still working, I, too, have been angered by the amount of sleeping by guy in the left seat. And to top it off, those are the guys that seem to view the lay-over time at the hotel as party time, then want to sleep again on the return trip after being awake during layover. I nodded off behind the throttle a few times at around 3am, only to jolt awake and see the conductor also asleep.

Gosh - not much has changed since the fireman sat in that seat! Guess you can change the rules and regs, but not the human....

[arbfbe]

I had a couple of FRA inspectors board my train last month. After satisfying all their requirements they asked if I had any questions for them. So I asked how rule promulgation for operating freight trains with one man crews was going at the FRA. I was told that was a LABOR issue and the FRA would not be getting involved. I asked about improving the rest situation, reducing the maximum nuber of hours crews could work in a week in one man service and was told that was a LABOR issue and the FRA would not be getting involved. Granted these were low level members of the FRA but it would seem they would know if anything is in the works at the FRA and since they were adament the FRA would not be getting involved until after there were enough accidents and deaths to warrant their attention I guess it is solely a LABOR issue, safety is secondary. I guess I should send an e-mail to the FRA for an official response.

[Anonymous]

The FRA inspectors playing mum on the 1-man crew brings up a common attitude in the present era of railroading. Everybody is trying to limit their liability, which is understandable in a world where it is always somebody's fault and that "somebody" has to pay. It's kind of like when you call the train dispatcher to find out if you are lined up through a town and you can't see the signal till you're on it, the dispatcher will tell you "signal indication" which basically doesn't help you any and clears them of any liability because they never said you were lined up. It's just another one of those frustrating parts of railroading.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by n_stephenson

The FRA inspectors playing mum on the 1-man crew brings up a common attitude in the present era of railroading. Everybody is trying to limit their liability, which is understandable in a world where it is always somebody's fault and that "somebody" has to pay. It's kind of like when you call the train dispatcher to find out if you are lined up through a town and you can't see the signal till you're on it, the dispatcher will tell you "signal indication" which basically doesn't help you any and clears them of any liability because they never said you were lined up. It's just another one of those frustrating parts of railroading.

you cant take anyones word for it anyways...even if he told you you where lined..you still have to go into the signal looking out....and thier are rules in the book that cover this...
csx engineer

[arbfbe]

I did actually e-mail the FRA on Wed to ask them if they were working on promulgating rules ahead of implimentation single person operation or if they would have to wait until there were accidents to investigate before making rules changes. When I get a reply I will let you know.

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by n_stephenson

The FRA inspectors playing mum on the 1-man crew brings up a common attitude in the present era of railroading. Everybody is trying to limit their liability, which is understandable in a world where it is always somebody's fault and that "somebody" has to pay. It's kind of like when you call the train dispatcher to find out if you are lined up through a town and you can't see the signal till you're on it, the dispatcher will tell you "signal indication" which basically doesn't help you any and clears them of any liability because they never said you were lined up. It's just another one of those frustrating parts of railroading.

you cant take anyones word for it anyways...even if he told you you where lined..you still have to go into the signal looking out....and thier are rules in the book that cover this...
csx engineer

Some years back on the Illinois Central, there was a miscommunication between an engineer and an operator. On a foggy night, a freight engineer asked for the aspect of a positive signal that controled the line up where a three track main went to two tracks. Thinking it was a different train, the operator said the signal was clear. The engineer did not reduce speed, ran the signal and fouled the number two track and collided head on with a passenger train.

Nate-it is just one of those rules that must be.

Jay

[ValleyX]

Why would you want to take anyone's word for a signal? I've seen this turn into possible tickets for disaster more than once. If it's not a member of your crew, forget it. Let's see, there was the Penn Central in the early seventies in Cleveland when the operator told the train to come on down, only to have the train hit the drawbridge counterweight, stripped the body of the lead unit from the frame, killed the engineer and fireman. There's a couple of other stories that I know of that didn't result in disaster but resulted in crews being fired.

Oh, and I don't want to be on a train by myself, I fail to see anything good coming from this, unless I'm an investor, looking only at $$$$$.

[Anonymous]

This will be the biggest fight the UTU has ever faced. If they cave in and give up the crew consist 1992 agreement, then kiss everything goodby. If I still have a job afterwards, I will no longer pay union dues to them. Even though the rr is a closed shop, you are not required to pay your "dues" to the unions. You may choose to donate the monthly deductions to charity. If I decide to go this route, half of my $90.00 a month will go to my church, the other half to the local senior citizens center.

[csmith9474]

It comes back to some very basic points such as trying to swap a busted knuckle out 50 cars back with no assistance. The idiots trying to implement these changes have probably never had to lift more than their paper weights and coffee cups after stuffing their faces with doughnuts during a weekly conference call held to pat themselves on the back!!!!

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csmith9474

It comes back to some very basic points such as trying to swap a busted knuckle out 50 cars back with no assistance. The idiots trying to implement these changes have probably never had to lift more than their paper weights and coffee cups after stuffing their faces with doughnuts during a weekly conference call held to pat themselves on the back!!!!

Well,, what causes broken knuckles anyway??
I put it to you that most of the time it's poor train handling by bad engineers who deserve to be changing their own knucles,, or be in a diferent form of employment. I hear Wal-Mart is hiring.

[chad thomas]

Ouch [8D]

[CSXrules4eva]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

QUOTE: Originally posted by csmith9474

It comes back to some very basic points such as trying to swap a busted knuckle out 50 cars back with no assistance. The idiots trying to implement these changes have probably never had to lift more than their paper weights and coffee cups after stuffing their faces with doughnuts during a weekly conference call held to pat themselves on the back!!!!

Well,, what causes broken knuckles anyway??
I put it to you that most of the time it's poor train handling by bad engineers who deserve to be changing their own knucles,, or be in a diferent form of employment. I hear Wal-Mart is hiring.

LOL both of these statements are halarious!! I agree with the statement that the engineers that break a knuckle should do the job of replacing it, espually if it was done intentionally. Some engineers like some that work for NJT like to couple onto their cars at 6 mph instead of 3 or 4 mph. I don't really understand why they do this but they do. Some of the engineers at Septa do this too but the Silverliner train sets have the spear type coupler, instead of the knuckle type.

Hay you know what Wal Mart is a respecible company to work for. I heard on one of their comercials (spelling) that a guy who was working as a casheir made it all the way to Management Operator for a number of Wal Mart stors in his area. He's making six figures maybe more easy. However, I get the point about the engineers that are "stupid" should work for Wal Mart mabe they should work for McDonelds (spelling) on the grill or something. lol

[csmith9474]

I just like to stir it up a bit.

[Anonymous]

If the crew consist agreement goes the way of the dodo, I may lose my job for awhile, but the RR's will be desperate for people when the # of wrecks and engineers out of service increases. And just like others have said, a lot of decision making is performed by accountants and other folks who just look at the bottom line without considering the effect, or really understand anything about railroading at all. Oh well, it's just another episode of wait and see.....

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csmith9474

It comes back to some very basic points such as trying to swap a busted knuckle out 50 cars back with no assistance. The idiots trying to implement these changes have probably never had to lift more than their paper weights and coffee cups after stuffing their faces with doughnuts during a weekly conference call held to pat themselves on the back!!!!

where do some of you people get that it will be no assistance!!!!!! i dont know why some of you people still have this idea that it will be a solo effert if something brakes!!!!!! GO BACK TO PAGE 1 AND REREAD what myself and some other railroaders have said on this issue!!!!!!!!!!!!! and then it will become clear!!!!!
csx engineer

[csmith9474]

Thsi idea would be great (utility man) if maintenance roads were built along every inch of right of way. Then pay a crew to keep these roads passable, especially in winter. Or a maybe assign the utility man a motor car or even a helicoptor. Now we're talkin'.

[arbfbe]

csxengineer98:

Where do you get the idea there WILL be assistance? Railroads will be long on talk but short of performance if past history is any indication. You can probably name dozens of locations in your territory that are just not possible to drive to. Do you think the railroad is going to just accept hours and hours of delays with the mainline tied up while you sit in the cab of the loco waiting for the 'utility' to come help you? Besides he is 70 miles away helping the local do a set out and pick up. You will be expected to strap on the belt pack, set the units up in RCL operation and head back to the break or other problem and "Just do as much as you can until we can get someone there". I've got news for you, there ain't no help coming. It is the Alamo, you are on your own.

Hugh Jampton:
I put it that it is more common that break in twos are caused by factors other than poor train handling by the engineer. I have about 28 years of experience to back up my claim. You would be surprised how many times the key just falls out of the car due to lack of maintenance, there are noteable casting flaws in the failed part, train make up sucks, undesired emergency brake aplications from the rear of the train, and longer, heavier trains with the same old e-grade steel in the F type knuckles. It will not be getting any better with the 305,000 lb cars coming online.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe

csxengineer98:

Where do you get the idea there WILL be assistance? Railroads will be long on talk but short of performance if past history is any indication. You can probably name dozens of locations in your territory that are just not possible to drive to. Do you think the railroad is going to just accept hours and hours of delays with the mainline tied up while you sit in the cab of the loco waiting for the 'utility' to come help you? Besides he is 70 miles away helping the local do a set out and pick up. You will be expected to strap on the belt pack, set the units up in RCL operation and head back to the break or other problem and "Just do as much as you can until we can get someone there". I've got news for you, there ain't no help coming. It is the Alamo, you are on your own.

Hugh Jampton:
I put it that it is more common that break in twos are caused by factors other than poor train handling by the engineer. I have about 28 years of experience to back up my claim. You would be surprised how many times the key just falls out of the car due to lack of maintenance, there are noteable casting flaws in the failed part, train make up sucks, undesired emergency brake aplications from the rear of the train, and longer, heavier trains with the same old e-grade steel in the F type knuckles. It will not be getting any better with the 305,000 lb cars coming online.

i think that there will be help....simply becouse they already established the carft of the untiltiy man... and to have a few of them around at stategic locations is not out of the question....i will give you that myself and others could be totaly wrong..and you are on your own...
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe

csxengineer98:

Where do you get the idea there WILL be assistance? Railroads will be long on talk but short of performance if past history is any indication. You can probably name dozens of locations in your territory that are just not possible to drive to. Do you think the railroad is going to just accept hours and hours of delays with the mainline tied up while you sit in the cab of the loco waiting for the 'utility' to come help you? Besides he is 70 miles away helping the local do a set out and pick up. You will be expected to strap on the belt pack, set the units up in RCL operation and head back to the break or other problem and "Just do as much as you can until we can get someone there". I've got news for you, there ain't no help coming. It is the Alamo, you are on your own.

Hugh Jampton:
I put it that it is more common that break in twos are caused by factors other than poor train handling by the engineer. I have about 28 years of experience to back up my claim. You would be surprised how many times the key just falls out of the car due to lack of maintenance, there are noteable casting flaws in the failed part, train make up sucks, undesired emergency brake aplications from the rear of the train, and longer, heavier trains with the same old e-grade steel in the F type knuckles. It will not be getting any better with the 305,000 lb cars coming online.

arbfbe -

I have to agree with csx_eng. There will be help. Why? Two reasons. One, it is going to be necessary to provide some help with one man crews. Look at how the Brits run things. Single man on the road with yardmen at yards to assist. Perhaps here you will get a U-man. Perhaps your assist will come from a carman or even a manager. TMs around here have been known to pitch in and drive conductors to the rear and back if it keeps things moving. But there are many circumstances where an assist will be necessary and other where it will certainly be beneficial. You probably won't get help all the time, but when you have the main all blocked up and the RR depends upon you clearing up, there won't be a shortage of help, even if it means extreme methods to get it to you.

Second, there will be help because the RR industry is like a big ship. Change comes slowly, gradually. Now, if you get a knuckle (for example), on this division, you'll get a minimum of a TM or RFE (usually both) or higher, a Track Foreman or higher, a Mechanical Foreman and helper with block truck and plenty of spares and often a Signal Maintainer as well. So, help isn't a real issue now. I doubt it will be in the future either. Anything is possible, of course, but I don't see us getting less than a U-man or the Block Truck and our district is far from an extremely busy main line.

LC

[ValleyX]

Hugh Jampton, I think you don't know what you're talking about, in my part of the world, if you get a knuckle, it's heavily scrutinized, tapes are pulled, discussions held with the engineer about what he did when the knuckle broke, giving up your firstborn. . .In other words, you don't want to get a knuckle.

Those knuckles go until they break, it's not like the car department looks for bad order knuckles, and there's other factors involved, such as trains going into emergency and that's part of the result. Some of these trains are poorly built, nothing but big Slinkies, and you try to manage them but an undesired emergency sometimes results in a undesired result.

[daveklepper]

To make one-man trains work, maintenance of both cars and tracks will have to be a lot better. Why is it that practically every day on the Trains website to we read about a derailment? It seems as if the UP has about 300 a year and the BNSF isn't much better. That kind of performance has to be improved. And then their are other mishaps. It seems incredible in this day and age.

[arbfbe]

Some of the comments here are truely naieve. The railroads are going to make minimal changes for one person operation. They will do only what the FRA mandates or what is absolutely necessary to trains over the road. The carriers will make wild promises and might even agree to some things the unions want to acquiese to an agreement but will in short time fail to live up to what they have agreed to. There will never be the number of utility employees that will be promised and those that will be there will be given tasks to handle so they are not just sitting around in a hy-rail truck waiting for the next emergency to happen. Funny, these tasks will soon fill up their day and so they will generally be 'unavailable' or out of place to handle train problems in their district.

There WILL NOT be shorter trains, better mechanical maintenance or track repairs. There will be belt packs for the engineer. If the railroads wanted to run 5-10 cars behind a hy-rail semi cab with one man they could do that now under existing agreements and you do not see that happening. I will bet a beer on this. Let's get together in about 3-5 years and I will make good on my challenge. I will either be several kegs in the hole or one really drunk oracle. I think my money is safe or I wouldn't be making the bet. I like the Izaak Walton Inn at Essex, we can have the keg on the front lawn.