Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Remember: In South Carolina, North is southeast of Due West... HIOAg /Bill
Originally posted by DigitalGriffin Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Thursday, April 7, 2005 2:19 PM Steam will come back as soon as pigs learn to fly. Ride Amtrak. Cats Rule, Dogs Drool. Reply tree68 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Northern New York 25,011 posts Posted by tree68 on Thursday, April 7, 2005 2:22 PM Based on the numerous threads that have discussed this topic in the past year, the answer to the question is a resounding "No." Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it... Reply DigitalGriffin Member sinceDecember 2004 From: Pa. 3,361 posts Posted by DigitalGriffin on Thursday, April 7, 2005 2:26 PM Conversion of coal->oil requires a special type of oil laden shale. It also requires a special refinary to which there is only one I know of in California. The question becomes: Would conversion of coal->oil->diesel->power as efficient as coal->power cost wise? (even with additional crew and water towers) Electric power is fine for local rides and passenger trains. But I don't think it would work for long distance cargo hauls across mountains and deserts where a constant supply of MEGAWATTS is necessary. I don't think steam will come back as we knew it. Steam would come back as a more modern version with increased efficiency and lower pollution. Is startup/shutdown times for trains really an issue? The last of the old stanley steamers had flash point boilers that produced steam in < 2 minutes. This was way before the end of steam. I imagine using battery power drivers or electric rail pickup wouldn't be out of the question until the boiler gets up to steam. In the last days of C&O steam they experimented with steam powered turbines to generate electricity. It was a massive failure mostly because they couldn't make the turbines efficient enough. Improvements in coal burning technology has advanced considerably since the 40's. Look at how much the efficiency of coal burning power plants has increased since then. Precrushing coal, drying coal, and increasing the efficiency of turbine design leds to dramatic increases in power output from the same coal. So what are the other negatives? Just food for thought guys. Like I said before, "I'm not saying it will happen. It just may happen." Anybody here a thermodynamic or plant systems engineer? Exactly how much energy can we extract from a pound of coal? ~Don Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 7, 2005 2:36 PM It'd be a nice idea, but it ain't gonna happen. Only real cost effective fuel for a steam locomotive would be coal. And a coal burning steam engine won't be happening anytime soon. Mainly, you have the EPA and the environmental groups to deal with, and they've got our country in a stranglehold. Even if the EPA would by some miracle approve it, the environmental groups would challenge the ruling in court and get it overturned eventually. Reply Edit kevarc Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Richland WA 361 posts Posted by kevarc on Thursday, April 7, 2005 2:39 PM Conversion of coal->oil requires a special type of oil laden shale. It also requires a special refinary to which there is only one I know of in California. IIRC there are a couple in Canada. The question becomes: Would conversion of coal->oil->diesel->power as efficient as coal->power cost wise? (even with additional crew and water towers) NO Electric power is fine for local rides and passenger trains. But I don't think it would work for long distance cargo hauls across mountains and deserts where a constant supply of MEGAWATTS is necessary. Not really, with modern switching gear and a decent power dispatch system like most of the major utilities have this would not be a problem. You could get more out of what you have. Improvements in coal burning technology has advanced considerably since the 40's. Look at how much the efficiency of coal burning power plants has increased since then. Precrushing coal, drying coal, and increasing the efficiency of turbine design leds to dramatic increases in power output from the same coal. Yes, but the equipment to do this takes up quite a bit a space, something a power plant has plenty of while an engine does not. Kevin Arceneaux Mining Engineer, Penn State 1979 Reply DigitalGriffin Member sinceDecember 2004 From: Pa. 3,361 posts Posted by DigitalGriffin on Thursday, April 7, 2005 2:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc Not really, with modern switching gear and a decent power dispatch system like most of the major utilities have this would not be a problem. You could get more out of what you have. So what are you going to do when you have a loaded consist going down a mountain and you loose your juice? [:0] Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 7, 2005 4:13 PM It's not the steam but the fuel used to generate it that is the issue up here in the Adirondacks. After many hundreds of thousands of acres burnt in the early 1900s largely due to locomotives, it's unlikely the Park Agency would ever let a wood or coal fired locomotive in area again. Wayne Reply Edit Hugh Jampton Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Southern Region now, UK 820 posts Posted by Hugh Jampton on Thursday, April 7, 2005 4:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by DigitalGriffin QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc Not really, with modern switching gear and a decent power dispatch system like most of the major utilities have this would not be a problem. You could get more out of what you have. So what are you going to do when you have a loaded consist going down a mountain and you loose your juice? [:0] Put the brakes on if need be. Air brakes are a mechanical system and require no juice. Generally a lurker by natureBe AlertThe world needs more lerts.It's the 3rd rail that makes the difference. Reply locomutt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Louisville,Ky. 5,077 posts Posted by locomutt on Thursday, April 7, 2005 4:40 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton QUOTE: Originally posted by DigitalGriffin QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc Not really, with modern switching gear and a decent power dispatch system like most of the major utilities have this would not be a problem. You could get more out of what you have. So what are you going to do when you have a loaded consist going down a mountain and you loose your juice? [:0] Put the brakes on if need be. Air brakes are a mechanical system and require no juice. It maybe"a mechanical system" but doesn't something have to generate the air? Gasoline,oil,diesel,electric,Wind Power ? C & O,N & W, Pennsy all tried for 'steam-turbine-electrics'; didn't work at that time,not sure it would work now. Being Crazy,keeps you from going "INSANE" !! "The light at the end of the tunnel,has been turned off due to budget cuts" NOT AFRAID A Vet., and PROUD OF IT!! Reply kevarc Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Richland WA 361 posts Posted by kevarc on Thursday, April 7, 2005 4:47 PM Once you have your pressure up, if the power goes off, all you need to do is put the brakes on. With the positive pressure system, when you let the air out, the brakes go on. Then when power is restored, you just pump the brakes off. Kevin Arceneaux Mining Engineer, Penn State 1979 Reply locomutt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Louisville,Ky. 5,077 posts Posted by locomutt on Thursday, April 7, 2005 4:51 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc Once you have your pressure up, if the power goes off, all you need to do is put the brakes on. With the positive pressure system, when you let the air out, the brakes go on. Then when power is restored, you just pump the brakes off. Still need a supply of some kind to get the air pressure there. Being Crazy,keeps you from going "INSANE" !! "The light at the end of the tunnel,has been turned off due to budget cuts" NOT AFRAID A Vet., and PROUD OF IT!! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 7, 2005 5:00 PM What's the issue with the air? Westinghouse got his patent for air brakes around 1870. It's not like one would have to reinvent the wheel. Wayne Reply Edit Overmod Member sinceSeptember 2003 21,669 posts Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 7, 2005 5:26 PM Jeez, what is this? You don't need "special" anything to perform coal gasification and fuel synthesis. Not particularly new concept (cf. Fischer-Tropsch), but of course much innovation and use of modern technology and methods. The only thing holding the technology back was low fossil-oil supply cost. Note the historical record of SASOL (in South Africa). There was quite a bit of interesting behind-the-scenes activity in gasification/synthesis over the past four or five years -- and yes, you can expect effective plant capitalization, construction, and operation with great speed once oil prices reach critical levels -- the working "number" for diesel being somewhere around $2.40 per gallon exclusive of road tax. Short, crisp answer: do NOT expect the price of fuel to climb much beyond that level, pretty well regardless of what happens in China, Europe, etc. Breakeven economics for appropriate-scale biodiesel with necessary additives/structuring is in the same general ballpark. Now, it would be possible to develop a locomotive fuel for external combustion that is less refined than typical locomotive diesel. But when you factor in the additional capital and maintenance costs for a separate family of motive power, the 'savings' don't look quite so good. (I think the UP experience with "heavy oil" locomotives in the '50s would repeat in that scenario -- let alone experience with more exotic forms of prime mover.) There's also the issue of cumulative markets for the synfuel. Diesel is also used in trucks and automobiles... and home-heating furnaces with a different additive/structure mix. You'd have to do marketing, coordinated development, etc. for fuels "other than diesel" -- not impossible, just extremely, extremely unlikely. One other small note: Hydrogen is imho best utilized as an agent to perform gasification/synthesis, at or near the point where the hydrogen is generated. (There's a variety of reasons for this.) It's a fine thing to develop an energy-carrier economy around hydrogen as a fuel of convenience... but I suspect the actual convenience is being considerably exaggerated. I still am trying to figure out what the point of this air-brake business is supposed to be. You use a compressor to take atmospheric air and pressurize it. Pick your power source -- steam happens to be 'economical' to run brake-air compressors because it's gas-to-gas expansion, rather than converting heat energy to pressure to torque to run a rotary compressor that gets back to pressure (and then 'getting rid' of the heat in the compressed air). I sorta assumed digitalgriffin meant 'if you were going downgrade on (preferably regenerative) 'dynamic' brake and lost your connection" -- in which case (a) you'd use more air to control the train, (b) do what you could to restore your connection or fix what failed, (c) consider keeping DB grids, flywheel storage, etc. on the locomotives to perform the 'regenerative' function in the absence of overhead wire or whatever. Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Thursday, April 7, 2005 5:37 PM "Conversion of coal->oil requires a special type of oil laden shale. It also requires a special refinary to which there is only one I know of in California." That is not correct. Any type of coal or coal related product (mining waste, slate, shale) can be easily converted into synthetic diesel. The Germans did it in WW2 for fuel for their tanks. Like Overmod said, the only thing that has prevented it in the past was the break even point. Reply Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc Not really, with modern switching gear and a decent power dispatch system like most of the major utilities have this would not be a problem. You could get more out of what you have.
QUOTE: Originally posted by DigitalGriffin QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc Not really, with modern switching gear and a decent power dispatch system like most of the major utilities have this would not be a problem. You could get more out of what you have. So what are you going to do when you have a loaded consist going down a mountain and you loose your juice? [:0]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton QUOTE: Originally posted by DigitalGriffin QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc Not really, with modern switching gear and a decent power dispatch system like most of the major utilities have this would not be a problem. You could get more out of what you have. So what are you going to do when you have a loaded consist going down a mountain and you loose your juice? [:0] Put the brakes on if need be. Air brakes are a mechanical system and require no juice.
Being Crazy,keeps you from going "INSANE" !! "The light at the end of the tunnel,has been turned off due to budget cuts" NOT AFRAID A Vet., and PROUD OF IT!!
QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc Once you have your pressure up, if the power goes off, all you need to do is put the brakes on. With the positive pressure system, when you let the air out, the brakes go on. Then when power is restored, you just pump the brakes off.
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