Odd topic of the day: Return to steam possible?

[DigitalGriffin]

So my wife and I entered a rather long and protracted debate about the lack of oil and the future of cars last night.

This is what we came to as a conclusion: The days of cheap petro is over. With China's industrialization, and entrance into the modern world, the oil demand will always exceed supply. If we continue to pump oil at the current rate, mathematical forcast predict that in 10 years, gas will be ~$15.00-$18.00/gallon (based on todays prices, not including predicted inflation)

Then we started to think about alternative energy sources.

Batteries don't have much energy life, take a long time to recharge, contain toxic chemicals, and have a finite life expectancy before they have to be replaced.

Fuel cells are delicate, and the hydrogen to power them takes up more space than gasoline, and is a lot more dangerous to store.

There really isn't enough farm land to supply every vehicle for alternative fuel substitutes (ie: bio-diesal) from common crops like soy.

So what does this have to do with the return of steam trains? Following the predictions of fuel cost, transportation cost using diesel engines would skyrocket for both trucks and diesel engines. Could coal fed steam be the logical alternative?

While not as cheap as diesal trains by a long shot today, what about 10 years from now when that diesel does cost $15/gallon?

There are plenty of boiler fed cargo ships still around today. So it is still somewhat a viable option cost wise to operate this way.

I'm not saying that it IS going to happen. Just an interesting "what could" happen.

I usually sit in the MRR forums, but I thought this topic of better interest here.

[lonewoof]

Nice as it might be to dream about this, it ain't gonna happen, Infrastructure, maintenance, and manpower are still going to be a problem, just as they were 60 years ago (not to mention the EPA having a collective coronary). Besides, if oil prices rise that much, coal will suddenly become more popular and ITS price will go up too. What will likely happen is: electrification (even with ITS infrastructure costs), and coal gasification (which we should probably have been pursuing anyway).
Maybe we'll get our heads out of the sand and do something with electricity from NUCLEAR (horrors!). We need to realize there's only SO MUCH fossil stuff to burn...

[Anonymous]

Fuel cell technology is not 100% dependant upon using hydrogen for fuel,...in fact there are municipal utioities coupled to city sewage plants that burn methane liberated from the solids.

The biggest problem with the idea of using fuel cells for transportation is that in order for the maximum efficiency of the cycle to be exploited, you have to use the heat produced efficiently in addition to the use of the electricity produced... Last I checked, which was 3 years ago, the energy output of most conventional fuel cells was 40% electricity, and 60% heat.

So, PERHAPS a steam fuel cell hybrid might make sense (some day) with the heat by product used to create steam to run turbine generators?

[Leon Silverman]

Don:
You haven't looked too closely at those boiler-fed cargo ships. They are still oil fired, just like your Union Pacific Challengers and Big Boys.
Coal can be converted to fuel that can be used by diesels and possibly gasoline engines, but it is expensive to produce. When the cost of refined crude oil reaches a point where it relatively less expensive to refine coal rather than crude oil, then the cross-over will occur. A synthetic gasoline or diesel fuel can be distributed from the same infrastructure. Converting to gaseous fuels, like hydrogen or propane, requires the construction of an entirely different type distribution infrastructure along with installation of a high pressure, different type of fuel tank on the vehicles using these fuels.
Boiler systems, regardless of the fuel used to fire them, have a distinct disadvantage over internal combustion engines. They cannot be quickly shut down or started up from a dead cold start. This is why the steam powered automobiles virtually disappeared at the start of the 20th century once the electric starter was invented.
Also, a blown internal combustion engine is generally an inconvenience. A blown boiler usually results in fatalities and damage to surrounding structures in addition to the room or vehicle carrying the boiler.

[spbed]

Most sorry to take exception to your post but I worked in the steamship industry for many, many years. What you posted about the ships is incorrect as the steamship lines for many years have built & operated "motor" vessels. The type of steamship you rrefer to in your post like the steam engine is long gone as a means of transporation. [:p][:D][:)]

Originally posted by DigitalGriffin

Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR  Austin TX Sub

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