Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
Originally posted by arbfbe [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 1:10 PM It's not the real world, it's the railroad world, and although it was an innocent question, it set off one of those little firestorms. I understand that your son has a degree in labor studies but unless he has studied railway labor, he really wouldn't have the proper knowledge to offer opinions, it would be like being forced to bat with both hands tied behind his back. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 1:16 PM I decided not to show them to my son. What I meant about real world is what really goes on out there between labor & management is appears on a daily bases My son decided labor relations was not his thing & went to school to become a mechanic for a new car dealer which is unionized also. [:o)][8D][:D] QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX It's not the real world, it's the railroad world, and although it was an innocent question, it set off one of those little firestorms. I understand that your son has a degree in labor studies but unless he has studied railway labor, he really wouldn't have the proper knowledge to offer opinions, it would be like being forced to bat with both hands tied behind his back. Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jimitimi Member sinceApril 2003 From: Andover, MN 33 posts Posted by jimitimi on Friday, March 25, 2005 6:43 PM Wow! After reading all of this, I am glad I am a railfan! Kind of takes away any desire to become a real railroader....but gives me a great appreciation of the dedication and hard work you all do!!!! I have a lot of respect for you!! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 25, 2005 6:57 PM Had a question, but must have not submitted it. Does the rule change for a "crew" of just one engineer? I have read articles of some who are run to death and given short rest times. Rusty Bernt Maybe this does not rate an answer.. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, March 27, 2005 10:14 AM Jimitimi, you wrote: "Wow! After reading all of this, I am glad I am a railfan! Kind of takes away any desire to become a real railroader....but gives me a great appreciation of the dedication and hard work you all do!!!! I have a lot of respect for you!!." I'm sorry this has soured your viewpoint on a railroad career. I am about to complete 32 years of service (next week) and would not have wanted any other kind of career. Working on RRs has not soured my interst in RRs as a hobby. Like any other profession, it's a P__ in the A__ sometimes, but you just have to learn a few basic rules and learn to live by 'em. the 12 hour hours of service rule is not really that complicated (although people occaisionally like to try to MAKE it more complicated). If you have any thoughts of a career, please continue to look into it. Once you get IN, if you don't like it, you can always get OUT and revert to being a yuppie in a skyscraper office, that is, UNLESS IT GETS INTO YOUR BLOOD. I would not want to hear from you some 20 years down the line saying: "I wish I DID , when I had the CHANCE". -- On another subject, I'd like to say that FREQUENTLY, someone who does not understand the complexity of railroad rules and Federal laws will revert to saying:"OH, THAT"S SOME SILLY UNION RULE". Railroaders who work many long and hard hours (including holidays and in inclement weather when everything else closes down) are sick and tired of hearing these silly responses. It is things like this that makes railfans not as welcome around railroad property as they were 30 or 40 years ago. Reply Edit wabash1 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 2,849 posts Posted by wabash1 on Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:27 AM 12 hr rule is for the crew not just the engineer. If a crew comes on duty at 1pm and gets out by 130 pm but because of the dispatcher they dont get to point B. and are relieved on line of road both the engineer and conductor are relieved. Now say the same crew called at 1pm they get out at 130pm and 30 miles into trip the engineer gets a emergency phone call and they send a cab out to get him off the train and head for home. with the call time and travel time the relief engineer dont show up for 3 hours the relief engineer boards the train at 6pm. the original conductor still on duty goes dead at 1am . reason it is 12 hrs regardless and the engineer can not operate the train with out a conductor on board. the engineer is good til 3am he cant move the train after 1am with all the hype the truth be said it dont matter how you cut it when the crew member time is up that is it no work will be preformed you can be on duty but you wont do nothing unless a train master or road forman tells you to do it. Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Sunday, March 27, 2005 12:46 PM Twelve is twelve, when it's up, you're done, whether you're a single engineer on a helper in the coalfields or (and I hope I never see this) a single engineer on a intermodal train in the future. As for a trainmaster or RFE, he'd better have some message from the superintendent with him, I still say he hasn't got that kind of authority. I was told when I first went railroading that the president of the railroad himself couldn't make light of the rules and I've never had that contradicted. It was a regional road foreman that told me that, someone with a little more authority than your average trainmaster. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, March 27, 2005 2:49 PM I sure learned a awful lot from this thread. Thanks to all who made me wiser! Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Monday, March 28, 2005 2:43 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX Twelve is twelve, when it's up, you're done, whether you're a single engineer on a helper in the coalfields or (and I hope I never see this) a single engineer on a intermodal train in the future. As for a trainmaster or RFE, he'd better have some message from the superintendent with him, I still say he hasn't got that kind of authority. I was told when I first went railroading that the president of the railroad himself couldn't make light of the rules and I've never had that contradicted. It was a regional road foreman that told me that, someone with a little more authority than your average trainmaster. the thing is most of the time they back down...but once in a great while they dont... and you have to do it... a boss is a boss... they tell you do something..and threatin with insubordination charges... its all on you if you want to go head to head with them....just hope that when your taken out of service you have a nice saving account saved up to live on untill your hearing...job insurance dosnt cover insuborditaion suspentions.... and hope you have one hell of a good union LC that can beat the charges and get you back pay.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Monday, March 28, 2005 2:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Penn Central Black Jimitimi, you wrote: "Wow! After reading all of this, I am glad I am a railfan! Kind of takes away any desire to become a real railroader....but gives me a great appreciation of the dedication and hard work you all do!!!! I have a lot of respect for you!!." I'm sorry this has soured your viewpoint on a railroad career. I am about to complete 32 years of service (next week) and would not have wanted any other kind of career. Working on RRs has not soured my interst in RRs as a hobby. Like any other profession, it's a P__ in the A__ sometimes, but you just have to learn a few basic rules and learn to live by 'em. the 12 hour hours of service rule is not really that complicated (although people occaisionally like to try to MAKE it more complicated). If you have any thoughts of a career, please continue to look into it. Once you get IN, if you don't like it, you can always get OUT and revert to being a yuppie in a skyscraper office, that is, UNLESS IT GETS INTO YOUR BLOOD. I would not want to hear from you some 20 years down the line saying: "I wish I DID , when I had the CHANCE". -- On another subject, I'd like to say that FREQUENTLY, someone who does not understand the complexity of railroad rules and Federal laws will revert to saying:"OH, THAT"S SOME SILLY UNION RULE". Railroaders who work many long and hard hours (including holidays and in inclement weather when everything else closes down) are sick and tired of hearing these silly responses. It is things like this that makes railfans not as welcome around railroad property as they were 30 or 40 years ago. yep...that just about sums it all up... espicaly the part about "oh thats some silly union rule"..... most of the time they arent even union rules..such as the hours of service....its an FRA law.... just like a DOT laws for truckdrivers...now that isnt some silly union rule.... its a LAW.... ok..im done..lol csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, March 28, 2005 6:09 AM Why not take a portable tape recorder in your gear & when you get the order tape it. Then refuse & if they bring charges I am sure since you have it on tape your union would protect you! [:D][:D] Originally posted by csxengineer98 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Monday, March 28, 2005 3:17 PM Here is the viewpoint from the FRA. If you refuse a directive from a carrier officer or dispatcher to violate the Hours of Service and serve time for that, the FRA is not interested. Why? because there was no violation of the hours of service. The FRA does not get involved in discipline or labor issues. If you do as the carrier offical demands and do not get fired then the FRA will get involved and perhaps fine the company. Their (FRA) advice is to do what the railroad tells you to do no matter how egregous it is. State your case, do as instructed and then report the violation to the Union or the FRA. There is a reason I know of this......... Reply wabash1 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 2,849 posts Posted by wabash1 on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:08 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Why not take a portable tape recorder in your gear & when you get the order tape it. Then refuse & if they bring charges I am sure since you have it on tape your union would protect you! [:D][:D] Originally posted by csxengineer98 why do that it is recorded anyways anything that is said on the radio is recorded. its on 30 day tapes and can be pulled by the fra to listen to . it pretty cut and dry as stated. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:19 AM I would suspect as I suggested if the refusal is documented then I would say the union should be able to protect the engineer. You know in reading all this I have begun to wonder why the union does not get more involved in protecting their members on this issue. [:D][:p][:o)] Originally posted by arbfbe Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:13 AM I was thinking more from the crew side in that if you have it documented & then refuse to move when the law hits & then the company takes action against you your union should be able to really come down strongly on the RR for not obeying the law. If they were terminated you would also have a great case in court if you have the documentation. [:p][:o)] Originally posted by wabash1 Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 2:44 PM I've been doing this too long to not know how to not be insubordinate. I'm not going to throw it all away now because of some silly official's demands. However, as I stated in a previous post, other than extreme weather conditions, with the exception of one other time, orders to violate the Hours of Service have not happened to me and I'm talking about 30 plus years, the vast majority of it in road service. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 5:36 PM i never said that it goes on every moment of every day...i was just saying to who ever it was that said befor that only the dispatcher can tell you to violate the hours of service law...all i am saying is that if a boss and i mean any boss orders you to do anything...you can complain..sight rules and law violations by doing that act... but as soon as they say "are you refusing duty" the only action you have now is to get the bosses name and time..and document the incident...and turn it into the FRA and the union..... usely after the FRA and the union LC have a "heart to heart" with the boss in question...that boss changes his toon about "ordering" crews to brake rules.... this whole tread comes down to this...your not supost to break the hours of service...but if your ordered to...you have to....regardless of what level of managment tells you to do it...just as long as you have some kind of documentation to protect your own butt....thats the NUMBER 1 rule of railroading...protect thy own A$$...NUMBER 2 is..dont get hurt.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:36 PM Because most railroads, like mine, has a section in their timetable and safety rules which forbids T&E employees from having recording devices, cameras, eletronic games, reading material not approved by the railroad, and portable TVs....so if you record a TM or road foreman issuing such a order, you cant use it, because having any of these devices is in itself grounds for being removed from service(fired) which is exactally why they have that rule in the first place, so you can not document what is said to you, nor take any photos that might support your side of a accident report in case it dissagrees with what the TM investigating said accident decides is the "truth"... Been there, done that, camera phones are a great invention! EdQUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Why not take a portable tape recorder in your gear & when you get the order tape it. Then refuse & if they bring charges I am sure since you have it on tape your union would protect you! [:D][:D] Originally posted by csxengineer98 23 17 46 11 Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:49 PM Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:50 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. that is a good question..you would think that if you where ordered..the super would be responsable...but then agin...they would try and blame it on you becouse you where the crew that screwed up..regardless of you where forced to do it or not.... i guess that is why you would want to have good LC...one that will go the extra mile to get the charges droped... not just try and have a quick settlement.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:59 AM Wow quite interesting! [:o)][:o)] Wow also to the camera phones. [:o)][:o)] Originally posted by edblysard Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX It's not the real world, it's the railroad world, and although it was an innocent question, it set off one of those little firestorms. I understand that your son has a degree in labor studies but unless he has studied railway labor, he really wouldn't have the proper knowledge to offer opinions, it would be like being forced to bat with both hands tied behind his back.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX Twelve is twelve, when it's up, you're done, whether you're a single engineer on a helper in the coalfields or (and I hope I never see this) a single engineer on a intermodal train in the future. As for a trainmaster or RFE, he'd better have some message from the superintendent with him, I still say he hasn't got that kind of authority. I was told when I first went railroading that the president of the railroad himself couldn't make light of the rules and I've never had that contradicted. It was a regional road foreman that told me that, someone with a little more authority than your average trainmaster.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Penn Central Black Jimitimi, you wrote: "Wow! After reading all of this, I am glad I am a railfan! Kind of takes away any desire to become a real railroader....but gives me a great appreciation of the dedication and hard work you all do!!!! I have a lot of respect for you!!." I'm sorry this has soured your viewpoint on a railroad career. I am about to complete 32 years of service (next week) and would not have wanted any other kind of career. Working on RRs has not soured my interst in RRs as a hobby. Like any other profession, it's a P__ in the A__ sometimes, but you just have to learn a few basic rules and learn to live by 'em. the 12 hour hours of service rule is not really that complicated (although people occaisionally like to try to MAKE it more complicated). If you have any thoughts of a career, please continue to look into it. Once you get IN, if you don't like it, you can always get OUT and revert to being a yuppie in a skyscraper office, that is, UNLESS IT GETS INTO YOUR BLOOD. I would not want to hear from you some 20 years down the line saying: "I wish I DID , when I had the CHANCE". -- On another subject, I'd like to say that FREQUENTLY, someone who does not understand the complexity of railroad rules and Federal laws will revert to saying:"OH, THAT"S SOME SILLY UNION RULE". Railroaders who work many long and hard hours (including holidays and in inclement weather when everything else closes down) are sick and tired of hearing these silly responses. It is things like this that makes railfans not as welcome around railroad property as they were 30 or 40 years ago.
Originally posted by csxengineer98 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Monday, March 28, 2005 3:17 PM Here is the viewpoint from the FRA. If you refuse a directive from a carrier officer or dispatcher to violate the Hours of Service and serve time for that, the FRA is not interested. Why? because there was no violation of the hours of service. The FRA does not get involved in discipline or labor issues. If you do as the carrier offical demands and do not get fired then the FRA will get involved and perhaps fine the company. Their (FRA) advice is to do what the railroad tells you to do no matter how egregous it is. State your case, do as instructed and then report the violation to the Union or the FRA. There is a reason I know of this......... Reply wabash1 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 2,849 posts Posted by wabash1 on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:08 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Why not take a portable tape recorder in your gear & when you get the order tape it. Then refuse & if they bring charges I am sure since you have it on tape your union would protect you! [:D][:D] Originally posted by csxengineer98 why do that it is recorded anyways anything that is said on the radio is recorded. its on 30 day tapes and can be pulled by the fra to listen to . it pretty cut and dry as stated. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:19 AM I would suspect as I suggested if the refusal is documented then I would say the union should be able to protect the engineer. You know in reading all this I have begun to wonder why the union does not get more involved in protecting their members on this issue. [:D][:p][:o)] Originally posted by arbfbe Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:13 AM I was thinking more from the crew side in that if you have it documented & then refuse to move when the law hits & then the company takes action against you your union should be able to really come down strongly on the RR for not obeying the law. If they were terminated you would also have a great case in court if you have the documentation. [:p][:o)] Originally posted by wabash1 Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 2:44 PM I've been doing this too long to not know how to not be insubordinate. I'm not going to throw it all away now because of some silly official's demands. However, as I stated in a previous post, other than extreme weather conditions, with the exception of one other time, orders to violate the Hours of Service have not happened to me and I'm talking about 30 plus years, the vast majority of it in road service. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 5:36 PM i never said that it goes on every moment of every day...i was just saying to who ever it was that said befor that only the dispatcher can tell you to violate the hours of service law...all i am saying is that if a boss and i mean any boss orders you to do anything...you can complain..sight rules and law violations by doing that act... but as soon as they say "are you refusing duty" the only action you have now is to get the bosses name and time..and document the incident...and turn it into the FRA and the union..... usely after the FRA and the union LC have a "heart to heart" with the boss in question...that boss changes his toon about "ordering" crews to brake rules.... this whole tread comes down to this...your not supost to break the hours of service...but if your ordered to...you have to....regardless of what level of managment tells you to do it...just as long as you have some kind of documentation to protect your own butt....thats the NUMBER 1 rule of railroading...protect thy own A$$...NUMBER 2 is..dont get hurt.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:36 PM Because most railroads, like mine, has a section in their timetable and safety rules which forbids T&E employees from having recording devices, cameras, eletronic games, reading material not approved by the railroad, and portable TVs....so if you record a TM or road foreman issuing such a order, you cant use it, because having any of these devices is in itself grounds for being removed from service(fired) which is exactally why they have that rule in the first place, so you can not document what is said to you, nor take any photos that might support your side of a accident report in case it dissagrees with what the TM investigating said accident decides is the "truth"... Been there, done that, camera phones are a great invention! EdQUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Why not take a portable tape recorder in your gear & when you get the order tape it. Then refuse & if they bring charges I am sure since you have it on tape your union would protect you! [:D][:D] Originally posted by csxengineer98 23 17 46 11 Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:49 PM Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:50 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. that is a good question..you would think that if you where ordered..the super would be responsable...but then agin...they would try and blame it on you becouse you where the crew that screwed up..regardless of you where forced to do it or not.... i guess that is why you would want to have good LC...one that will go the extra mile to get the charges droped... not just try and have a quick settlement.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:59 AM Wow quite interesting! [:o)][:o)] Wow also to the camera phones. [:o)][:o)] Originally posted by edblysard Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Why not take a portable tape recorder in your gear & when you get the order tape it. Then refuse & if they bring charges I am sure since you have it on tape your union would protect you! [:D][:D] Originally posted by csxengineer98 why do that it is recorded anyways anything that is said on the radio is recorded. its on 30 day tapes and can be pulled by the fra to listen to . it pretty cut and dry as stated. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:19 AM I would suspect as I suggested if the refusal is documented then I would say the union should be able to protect the engineer. You know in reading all this I have begun to wonder why the union does not get more involved in protecting their members on this issue. [:D][:p][:o)] Originally posted by arbfbe Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:13 AM I was thinking more from the crew side in that if you have it documented & then refuse to move when the law hits & then the company takes action against you your union should be able to really come down strongly on the RR for not obeying the law. If they were terminated you would also have a great case in court if you have the documentation. [:p][:o)] Originally posted by wabash1 Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 2:44 PM I've been doing this too long to not know how to not be insubordinate. I'm not going to throw it all away now because of some silly official's demands. However, as I stated in a previous post, other than extreme weather conditions, with the exception of one other time, orders to violate the Hours of Service have not happened to me and I'm talking about 30 plus years, the vast majority of it in road service. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 5:36 PM i never said that it goes on every moment of every day...i was just saying to who ever it was that said befor that only the dispatcher can tell you to violate the hours of service law...all i am saying is that if a boss and i mean any boss orders you to do anything...you can complain..sight rules and law violations by doing that act... but as soon as they say "are you refusing duty" the only action you have now is to get the bosses name and time..and document the incident...and turn it into the FRA and the union..... usely after the FRA and the union LC have a "heart to heart" with the boss in question...that boss changes his toon about "ordering" crews to brake rules.... this whole tread comes down to this...your not supost to break the hours of service...but if your ordered to...you have to....regardless of what level of managment tells you to do it...just as long as you have some kind of documentation to protect your own butt....thats the NUMBER 1 rule of railroading...protect thy own A$$...NUMBER 2 is..dont get hurt.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:36 PM Because most railroads, like mine, has a section in their timetable and safety rules which forbids T&E employees from having recording devices, cameras, eletronic games, reading material not approved by the railroad, and portable TVs....so if you record a TM or road foreman issuing such a order, you cant use it, because having any of these devices is in itself grounds for being removed from service(fired) which is exactally why they have that rule in the first place, so you can not document what is said to you, nor take any photos that might support your side of a accident report in case it dissagrees with what the TM investigating said accident decides is the "truth"... Been there, done that, camera phones are a great invention! EdQUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Why not take a portable tape recorder in your gear & when you get the order tape it. Then refuse & if they bring charges I am sure since you have it on tape your union would protect you! [:D][:D] Originally posted by csxengineer98 23 17 46 11 Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:49 PM Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:50 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. that is a good question..you would think that if you where ordered..the super would be responsable...but then agin...they would try and blame it on you becouse you where the crew that screwed up..regardless of you where forced to do it or not.... i guess that is why you would want to have good LC...one that will go the extra mile to get the charges droped... not just try and have a quick settlement.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:59 AM Wow quite interesting! [:o)][:o)] Wow also to the camera phones. [:o)][:o)] Originally posted by edblysard Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Originally posted by csxengineer98
Originally posted by arbfbe Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:13 AM I was thinking more from the crew side in that if you have it documented & then refuse to move when the law hits & then the company takes action against you your union should be able to really come down strongly on the RR for not obeying the law. If they were terminated you would also have a great case in court if you have the documentation. [:p][:o)] Originally posted by wabash1 Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 2:44 PM I've been doing this too long to not know how to not be insubordinate. I'm not going to throw it all away now because of some silly official's demands. However, as I stated in a previous post, other than extreme weather conditions, with the exception of one other time, orders to violate the Hours of Service have not happened to me and I'm talking about 30 plus years, the vast majority of it in road service. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 5:36 PM i never said that it goes on every moment of every day...i was just saying to who ever it was that said befor that only the dispatcher can tell you to violate the hours of service law...all i am saying is that if a boss and i mean any boss orders you to do anything...you can complain..sight rules and law violations by doing that act... but as soon as they say "are you refusing duty" the only action you have now is to get the bosses name and time..and document the incident...and turn it into the FRA and the union..... usely after the FRA and the union LC have a "heart to heart" with the boss in question...that boss changes his toon about "ordering" crews to brake rules.... this whole tread comes down to this...your not supost to break the hours of service...but if your ordered to...you have to....regardless of what level of managment tells you to do it...just as long as you have some kind of documentation to protect your own butt....thats the NUMBER 1 rule of railroading...protect thy own A$$...NUMBER 2 is..dont get hurt.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:36 PM Because most railroads, like mine, has a section in their timetable and safety rules which forbids T&E employees from having recording devices, cameras, eletronic games, reading material not approved by the railroad, and portable TVs....so if you record a TM or road foreman issuing such a order, you cant use it, because having any of these devices is in itself grounds for being removed from service(fired) which is exactally why they have that rule in the first place, so you can not document what is said to you, nor take any photos that might support your side of a accident report in case it dissagrees with what the TM investigating said accident decides is the "truth"... Been there, done that, camera phones are a great invention! EdQUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Why not take a portable tape recorder in your gear & when you get the order tape it. Then refuse & if they bring charges I am sure since you have it on tape your union would protect you! [:D][:D] Originally posted by csxengineer98 23 17 46 11 Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:49 PM Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:50 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. that is a good question..you would think that if you where ordered..the super would be responsable...but then agin...they would try and blame it on you becouse you where the crew that screwed up..regardless of you where forced to do it or not.... i guess that is why you would want to have good LC...one that will go the extra mile to get the charges droped... not just try and have a quick settlement.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:59 AM Wow quite interesting! [:o)][:o)] Wow also to the camera phones. [:o)][:o)] Originally posted by edblysard Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Originally posted by wabash1 Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 2:44 PM I've been doing this too long to not know how to not be insubordinate. I'm not going to throw it all away now because of some silly official's demands. However, as I stated in a previous post, other than extreme weather conditions, with the exception of one other time, orders to violate the Hours of Service have not happened to me and I'm talking about 30 plus years, the vast majority of it in road service. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 5:36 PM i never said that it goes on every moment of every day...i was just saying to who ever it was that said befor that only the dispatcher can tell you to violate the hours of service law...all i am saying is that if a boss and i mean any boss orders you to do anything...you can complain..sight rules and law violations by doing that act... but as soon as they say "are you refusing duty" the only action you have now is to get the bosses name and time..and document the incident...and turn it into the FRA and the union..... usely after the FRA and the union LC have a "heart to heart" with the boss in question...that boss changes his toon about "ordering" crews to brake rules.... this whole tread comes down to this...your not supost to break the hours of service...but if your ordered to...you have to....regardless of what level of managment tells you to do it...just as long as you have some kind of documentation to protect your own butt....thats the NUMBER 1 rule of railroading...protect thy own A$$...NUMBER 2 is..dont get hurt.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:36 PM Because most railroads, like mine, has a section in their timetable and safety rules which forbids T&E employees from having recording devices, cameras, eletronic games, reading material not approved by the railroad, and portable TVs....so if you record a TM or road foreman issuing such a order, you cant use it, because having any of these devices is in itself grounds for being removed from service(fired) which is exactally why they have that rule in the first place, so you can not document what is said to you, nor take any photos that might support your side of a accident report in case it dissagrees with what the TM investigating said accident decides is the "truth"... Been there, done that, camera phones are a great invention! EdQUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Why not take a portable tape recorder in your gear & when you get the order tape it. Then refuse & if they bring charges I am sure since you have it on tape your union would protect you! [:D][:D] Originally posted by csxengineer98 23 17 46 11 Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:49 PM Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:50 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. that is a good question..you would think that if you where ordered..the super would be responsable...but then agin...they would try and blame it on you becouse you where the crew that screwed up..regardless of you where forced to do it or not.... i guess that is why you would want to have good LC...one that will go the extra mile to get the charges droped... not just try and have a quick settlement.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:59 AM Wow quite interesting! [:o)][:o)] Wow also to the camera phones. [:o)][:o)] Originally posted by edblysard Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 2:44 PM I've been doing this too long to not know how to not be insubordinate. I'm not going to throw it all away now because of some silly official's demands. However, as I stated in a previous post, other than extreme weather conditions, with the exception of one other time, orders to violate the Hours of Service have not happened to me and I'm talking about 30 plus years, the vast majority of it in road service. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 5:36 PM i never said that it goes on every moment of every day...i was just saying to who ever it was that said befor that only the dispatcher can tell you to violate the hours of service law...all i am saying is that if a boss and i mean any boss orders you to do anything...you can complain..sight rules and law violations by doing that act... but as soon as they say "are you refusing duty" the only action you have now is to get the bosses name and time..and document the incident...and turn it into the FRA and the union..... usely after the FRA and the union LC have a "heart to heart" with the boss in question...that boss changes his toon about "ordering" crews to brake rules.... this whole tread comes down to this...your not supost to break the hours of service...but if your ordered to...you have to....regardless of what level of managment tells you to do it...just as long as you have some kind of documentation to protect your own butt....thats the NUMBER 1 rule of railroading...protect thy own A$$...NUMBER 2 is..dont get hurt.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:36 PM Because most railroads, like mine, has a section in their timetable and safety rules which forbids T&E employees from having recording devices, cameras, eletronic games, reading material not approved by the railroad, and portable TVs....so if you record a TM or road foreman issuing such a order, you cant use it, because having any of these devices is in itself grounds for being removed from service(fired) which is exactally why they have that rule in the first place, so you can not document what is said to you, nor take any photos that might support your side of a accident report in case it dissagrees with what the TM investigating said accident decides is the "truth"... Been there, done that, camera phones are a great invention! EdQUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Why not take a portable tape recorder in your gear & when you get the order tape it. Then refuse & if they bring charges I am sure since you have it on tape your union would protect you! [:D][:D] Originally posted by csxengineer98 23 17 46 11 Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:49 PM Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:50 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. that is a good question..you would think that if you where ordered..the super would be responsable...but then agin...they would try and blame it on you becouse you where the crew that screwed up..regardless of you where forced to do it or not.... i guess that is why you would want to have good LC...one that will go the extra mile to get the charges droped... not just try and have a quick settlement.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:59 AM Wow quite interesting! [:o)][:o)] Wow also to the camera phones. [:o)][:o)] Originally posted by edblysard Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Why not take a portable tape recorder in your gear & when you get the order tape it. Then refuse & if they bring charges I am sure since you have it on tape your union would protect you! [:D][:D] Originally posted by csxengineer98 23 17 46 11 Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:49 PM Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:50 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place. that is a good question..you would think that if you where ordered..the super would be responsable...but then agin...they would try and blame it on you becouse you where the crew that screwed up..regardless of you where forced to do it or not.... i guess that is why you would want to have good LC...one that will go the extra mile to get the charges droped... not just try and have a quick settlement.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:59 AM Wow quite interesting! [:o)][:o)] Wow also to the camera phones. [:o)][:o)] Originally posted by edblysard Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
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QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX Cracks me up, too, my employer has a photography contest every year. Still, we're not to have them. I've always wondered, you're tired, you're absolutely dragging, you're ordered to yard the train. Something goes wrong, heck, you weren't even supposed to be there. Do we drag the supervisor (?) in who ordered you to violate in the first place.
Originally posted by edblysard Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.