Trains.com

What does O.S. stand for?

28113 views
55 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, March 24, 2018 1:55 PM

I have not kept up with the changes made in what were CSX lines, but in 1966, the Bow Line operated on Eastern time all the way to Montgomery.

Johnny

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, March 24, 2018 4:22 PM

Deggesty
I have not kept up with the changes made in what were CSX lines, but in 1966, the Bow Line operated on Eastern time all the way to Montgomery.

When Dispatching offices were local and the dispatching function was not computerized the local times were observed with a designated time change point.

Working North Vernon, IN on the B&O Westward Trains to St. Louis arrived on Eastern Time and departed on Central Time.  Trains to Louisville were on Eastern time for arrival and departure.

The East End Dispatcher at Shops (Washington, IN) had to keep track of his trains in both time zones - 'Wait Until' ordrers issued for a range of points through North Vernon could be a real trip with some points being Eastern and some points Central!

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Saturday, March 24, 2018 4:30 PM

Re this photo: http://www.shorpy.com/node/6229?size=_original 

One of the comments below that photo say those clocks - were only 15 of them on the Santa Fe system (I doubt that, but  . . . ) - now go for $100K each!

- PDN. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, March 24, 2018 7:09 PM

Paul_D_North_Jr
One of the comments below that photo say those clocks - were only 15 of them on the Santa Fe system...

Commenter has it badly muddled, then invokes the name of the ATSF guy (at the time the old clocks were sold off in the '60s) to justify it.

There were at least 63 of those model 19 regulators in the 'first batch' (apparently many had ordinary 288 15-day escapements in them, not SWCCs) - the "15" refers to the number on the 'Gulf Lines' which were first to be completely equipped (according to an article from 1900).  I can't find any indication these were specially 'accurized' -- the same could NOT be said for the Seth Thomas Precision Astronomical Regulators that backed up the Western Union/Naval Observatory time signal.  (There is one in a BNSF visitor center in Fort Worth, worth a visit if you value pre-Synchronome accurate clocks...)

The notable thing here is that the dial itself is a special thing.  It looks like a Montgomery watch dial because it IS a Montgomery dial, designed and specified for these clocks by Henry Montgomery himself when he worked for Santa Fe.  There appears to be an enormous range of different clock case styles that received these 'standard' dials -- well beyond the number of #19-cased regulators used by operators.

Here is an article on ATSF timekeeping from only a few years later than the Shorpy pictures:


http://www.clockguy.com/SiteRelated/SiteGraphics/RefGraphics/SFRR/SFRR-SanBernardoCountySunArticle-09.04.1949.jpg




Sent from my dying iPhone
  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Sunday, March 25, 2018 11:59 AM

Overmod - your iPhone died in a good cause!

Check out this photo of an SF op: (that website could sure use up a lot of not-so-spare time!)

http://www.shorpy.com/node/23196?size=_original 

- PDN. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Sunday, March 25, 2018 12:06 PM

A few good articles from Trains on this: 

train-order dispatching on the Rock Island
from Trains July 1980  p. 44

Tales of the Peoria Rocket

from Trains December 1981  p. 45

(the above includes an incident when the train was OS'd out of station twice . . . )

Culver Tower, Muscatine, Iowa
from Trains April 1986  p. 26

- PDN.

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,019 posts
Posted by tree68 on Sunday, March 25, 2018 12:49 PM

Paul_D_North_Jr
(that website could sure use up a lot of not-so-spare time!)

Yeah - don't go there unless you've got some time to spare.  One thing leads to another, and another, and pretty soon you're looking for pictures of that landmark you remember... Or any number of other things.  Heck, you can sometimes spend an hour just looking at one image.

 

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

NDG
  • Member since
    December 2013
  • 1,620 posts
Posted by NDG on Sunday, March 25, 2018 2:15 PM
 
Thank You.
 
 
 
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Sunday, March 25, 2018 2:23 PM

What Canadian references were used for 'time' time?

What was the precise sequence of signals that was sent?

Was it normal for the agent to 'adjust' the clock's hands, if deviation was observed, or to do further tinkering with it in some way?  My understanding was that in the United States, someone connected with the 'time service' would be the only one to do anything other with the clock but wind it -- and in the case of SWCC systems, not even that.  So what "adjustments would be made" by the operator?  [Note the ATSF pictures that show deviation observed -- there were sets of these; I have seen 'zero', '1' and '2' firsthand, don't know yet how many others were in a set] - it does not damage timing precision to slip the chronometric deviation into a visible slot.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, March 25, 2018 3:57 PM

NDG
Telegrapher ' Hooping Up ' Train Orders to Caboose. The Engine Hoop was longer. 
The orders were held in a loop of string which, in turn was held in clips in Wye of Hoop, the top chord open, the side arms often Bamboo.

Train Order Hoops were all the same length - You handed up to the engines by holding the hooping device at the end of it's stick - to hand up to the Conductor on the caboose, you choked up about 1/2 way on the stick.  You measured your distance from the rail by touching the tip of the hoop on top of the nearest rail when facing the train - standing at that point you were safely away from the engine when you hooped up.  For the rear end crew, you remembered the spot you were standing at for the head end crew.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

NDG
  • Member since
    December 2013
  • 1,620 posts
Posted by NDG on Sunday, March 25, 2018 4:55 PM
Time for Starbucks.
 
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,019 posts
Posted by tree68 on Sunday, March 25, 2018 5:10 PM

I watched orders hooped up occasionally at Rantoul, IL (ICG).  Most of the time the operator would hang them on the stand, which had two forks.  The higher was for the engine, the lower for the caboose.  When the string was plucked, the fork fell out of the way.

Every now and then the operator would have to go with the "manual" method.  I don't recall the lengths of the handles - it wasn't a detail I considered at the time.

I'd imagine that each railroad had their own philosphy on the lengths.  They certainly did on most everything else.  An image on railroad.net concerning LIRR shows an operator holding two hoops of equal length.  They were loaded with orders.

I could be wrong, but I tend to believe Balt may have actually hooped orders during his career.

 

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, March 25, 2018 5:58 PM

B&O always used the Y with a string method of handing up orders. No 'sprung hoops'.  I always found handing up to the head end to be easy.  The rear end was another thing entirely, especially where the train was moving across a railroad crossing at grade.  As we all know from viewing Rochelle, such railroad crossing take a real pounding - a pounding that over time that turns the grade and subgrade to dust or mud - depending upon the level of precipitation.  Rules required the head end to pass the pick up point at 30 MPH or less - there was no speed requirement for the rear end.  After the engineer got his orders, he was determined to get the train up to track speed as fast as possible.  As a Operator after handing up to the head end, for safety's sake you moved away from the train so as not to be struck by anything that could be dragging from from the train - a load holding chain or steel banding.  Once away from the train the next order of business was to try to visually pick up the markers on the caboose so you could return to the proper position to hand up to the rear end crew - trying to view all this in the wind borne dust that was being generated by the increasing speed of the train and it's pounding across the railroad crossing, creating more dust with each axle passing over the diamond.

It was also a treat to hand up to passenger trains as you had to deliver orders to the engineer, baggageman and conductor.  The baggageman wasn't that far behind the engines, so quick handling of the hoops was required.

Not too many elk in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Matthews NC
  • 363 posts
Posted by matthewsaggie on Sunday, March 25, 2018 9:18 PM

Why the baggageman?

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, March 25, 2018 9:23 PM

matthewsaggie

Why the baggageman?

 

On many passenger trains he was the headend brakeman, and so was responsible for lining switches when taking sidings--and the flagman was also responsible for lining switches.

Johnny

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,371 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Monday, March 26, 2018 1:22 AM

I realize this may differ by railroad, but...

"When I was a boy" I spent much of some summers hanging at the C&IM depot.  The agent/operator would always "OS" a train to the dispatcher as in:  "Extra 53 North OS Manito 1:54 PM".  So, on the C&IM the agent/operator would be the one to "OS" the train.  I naturally ask him what "OS" meant and he said:  "Out of Station".

Years later, when I was working in MARKETING (not operations) for the ICG in Chicago we wanted to increase our share of the UP interchange business at Council Bluffs.  In talks with the operating people about improving our service we were confronted with the problem that there were no operators on duty between Ft. Dodge and Council Bluffs at night to arrange meets.  I ask why the engineer just couldn't report his position over the radio.  

I was told that to have an engineer "OS" his own train would violate the union agreements by crossing craft lines.  That function belonged to the operator.  So, just block business development because of an obsolete rule.  The radio thing, it did work. 

So I always understood, and experienced, "OS" as meaning "Out of Station" 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: MP 32.8
  • 769 posts
Posted by Kevin C. Smith on Monday, March 26, 2018 4:19 AM

I am of the opinion (for no other reason than that I am of the opinion) that the "OS" report has never "stood for" anything at all. It is simply that the two-letter Morse code for what would be (by far) the most commonly sent report, would be of the easiest letters ("--- ...")

"Look at those high cars roll-finest sight in the world."
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,019 posts
Posted by tree68 on Monday, March 26, 2018 7:24 AM

Well, both "on sheet" and "out of station" mean essentially the same thing, and, lacking a definitive timeline we don't know which came first or if they developed independently.  Could be that "on sheet" morphed into "out of station" on some railroads, or vice versa.

The easiest letters in Morse would be T and E (- and .), but I can't think of anything that would stand for.  O and S would certainly qualify as very recognizable.  Again, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.  

In Morse, there are what we call prowords, wherein the individual letters aren't considered, only the total word.  OS would have been one of them.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    December 2017
  • From: I've been everywhere, man
  • 4,269 posts
Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, March 26, 2018 1:12 PM

Today on CN "OS" is considered to mean "outer switch", for pay purposes at least.  The initial outer switch is the time your initial terminal pay ends, and the final outer switch is when final terminal pay begins.  

When operating in OCS (Canadianese for dark territory) we have to call the Dispatcher and give up the track we have just run over.  The rulebook refers to this as a "track release", but everyone still calls it a "OS".  

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,900 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, March 26, 2018 9:16 PM

Kevin C. Smith

I am of the opinion (for no other reason than that I am of the opinion) that the "OS" report has never "stood for" anything at all. It is simply that the two-letter Morse code for what would be (by far) the most commonly sent report, would be of the easiest letters ("--- ...")

 

You mean (. .  ...)  don't you?

Jeff

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,019 posts
Posted by tree68 on Monday, March 26, 2018 9:28 PM

jeffhergert
You mean (. .  ...)  don't you?

That would be E E S...

O is three dashes.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,900 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, March 26, 2018 9:33 PM

tree68

 

 
jeffhergert
You mean (. .  ...)  don't you?

 

That would be E E S...

O is three dashes.

 

In international Morse maybe...

Not in the Morse the railroads in the US and Canada used.

Jeff

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,019 posts
Posted by tree68 on Monday, March 26, 2018 9:49 PM

jeffhergert

In international Morse maybe...

Not in the Morse the railroads in the US and Canada used.

Jeff

You're right!  Interesting.  A whole different animal.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    December 2012
  • 310 posts
Posted by Cotton Belt MP104 on Tuesday, March 27, 2018 9:20 PM

I had seen "Railroad Morse" referred to as AMERICAN Morse verses Intrernational  endmrw0327182119

The ONE the ONLY/ Paragould, Arkansas/ Est. 1883 / formerly called The Crossing/ a portmanteau/ JW Paramore (Cotton Belt RR) Jay Gould (MoPac)/crossed at our town/ None other, NOWHERE in the world
  • Member since
    May 2022
  • 1 posts
Posted by 180 code on Monday, May 16, 2022 4:50 PM

Not questioning what you wrote, but was wondering if there was a source? Similar to your "On-sheet" (which makes perfect sense), I had been told long ago that "OS" meant "On-Station", as when trains hit the interlocking "plant" track circuits. The station in this case being "Signal Station" as I had also been told was what interlockings had been called at one time. I'm familiar with New Haven RR Interlockings being identified as SS-(MP no.)

Thanks

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy