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Central vs Pennsy in Indiana

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Posted by MP173 on Friday, August 12, 2022 8:50 AM

Unsure about the Logansport locomotive shop.  I have a photo somewhere taken in 1979.

My guess and only a guess is that it was steam era.

There is a railcar repair shop in that area now.

ed

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, August 12, 2022 12:54 PM

MidlandMike

It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed.  When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.

 

Panhandle ?

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Posted by Backshop on Friday, August 12, 2022 1:00 PM

Murphy Siding

 

 
MidlandMike

It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed.  When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.

 

 

 

Panhandle ?

 

 

The PRR line from Pittsburgh, through Columbus and Indianapolis, to St Louis was known as the "Panhandle", since it crossed the panhandle of West Virginia.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, August 12, 2022 2:21 PM

Backshop

 

 
Murphy Siding

 

 
MidlandMike

It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed.  When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.

 

 

 

Panhandle ?

 

 

 

 

The PRR line from Pittsburgh, through Columbus and Indianapolis, to St Louis was known as the "Panhandle", since it crossed the panhandle of West Virginia.

 

 

Thanks. I was trying to figure out why someone thought Indianna had a panhandle. I even went so far as to Google search states with panhandles. To be honest, some states seem to be pushing it. I'm looking at you Nebraska. Mischief

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, August 12, 2022 3:59 PM

Murphy Siding
Panhandle ?

Backshop's explanation notwithstanding, sometimes those names come from really obscure back stories.  Like, someone looked at a map and said "that looks like a panhandle..."  Not the case here, but...

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Posted by OWTX on Friday, August 12, 2022 8:59 PM

The Panhandle = The Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago and St. Louis Railroad

A Pennsylvania Railroad subsidiary that they financed, and pieced together from various 19th century railroads.

The Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago Railway was another, and the route of the crack passenger trains to Chicago.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:58 AM

PRR used to have a 50% share in the ownership of Chicago Union Station, based on its own share and the share owned by the Pan Handle.  CB&Q and MILW each had 25% shares in CUS.

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Posted by mudchicken on Saturday, August 13, 2022 10:05 AM

(and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.)

The PRR Corporate structure was truly a Wall Street circus.

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Posted by Convicted One on Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:16 PM

mudchicken
(and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.)

And don't forget the mighty FW&J. There is your outlier in this discussion. Former NYC...almost completely gone (in Indiana).

 

I suspect one thing being overlooked in this discussion is that not all lines were built for  transparent reasons.  Some were built  with an eye towards taking someone else's business. And some were built mostly because there were investors wanting to get in on "the next big thing"......which were both ripe for consolidation.  Consequently some lines were bought by others not because they needed the capacity, but to keep the lines out of the hands of competitors.

And then there also is the industry-wide loss of business to trucking.

 

So, to insist that some lines succeeded while others failed....solely as a matter of geography....might be an overly (overtly?) narrow perspective

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:35 PM

Convicted One
... So, to insist that some lines succeeded while others failed....solely as a matter of geography....might be an overly (overtly?) narrow perspective

I think that lines that survive either had the most business, or were the lowest cost to operate, which has at least some basis in geography.

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, August 14, 2022 1:54 AM

Convicted One
And some were built mostly because there were investors wanting to get in on "the next big thing"......which were both ripe for consolidation. 

In some cases that involved folks who wanted a railroad between their town and the next, nevermind economic viability.

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Posted by OWTX on Sunday, August 14, 2022 2:25 PM

An "air-line" was a pitch to the investor class that a railroad could make up for a lack of O&D traffic by pushing the projection for overhead traffic out to infinity.

The PRR western end was two railroads that weren't a good fit for rationalization into a core system, and the PRR managed to those fiefdoms, which fed into the red green battles of PC days.

St Louis never materialize as the dominate rail hub that it was for steam boat traffic, where they "stripped and stuffed" raw materials and finished goods on the region's landings.

The B&O had the same problem of cross WV operating expenses eating up the revenue on moves to St Louis, and landed on the same solution.

Rail traffic through the Ohio Valley gateway cities flows north south, not east west.

 

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Posted by CatFoodFlambe on Sunday, August 14, 2022 8:56 PM

As someone pointed out earlier - yards put many PRR lines at a disadvantage that could not have been overcome even without the deferred main line maintenance on much of the PRR side in the Hoosier State (and, frankly, all of PRR Lines West 

Pennsy terminal operations, at least west of Pittsburgh, were cramped, obsolete, and in poor physical condition.   NYC yards on west end of the system were newer, more efficient, and were in much better condition.  Naturally, the Central main lines feeding directly into them were usually the first choice.   

 

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Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, August 15, 2022 2:01 AM

PRR's Conway Yard was apparently the largest rail yard in the world during the 1950s, and it was situated near the middle of the railroad. Would it have been likely used mainly to sort traffic traveling between the western and eastern halfs of the railroad, or to serve the Pittsburgh area?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, August 15, 2022 10:16 AM

mudchicken

(and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.)

The PRR Corporate structure was truly a Wall Street circus.

 
NYC's corporate structure wasn't much simpler.  Both systems had an oversupply of subsidiaries that were majority owned by the parent and were operated under leases of various lengths.  I can remember poring through Moody's Transportaion Manuals dated prior to 1976 trying to figure out (with little success) how everything fit together.
     It was slightly more complicated than the ownership and operation of the South Shore Line between Kensington and the Illinois-Indiana state line.
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Posted by Backshop on Monday, August 15, 2022 10:26 AM

What's unusual is that all the NYC components had their own locomotive repair shops---NYC-West Albany. B&A-West Springfield. LS&MS-Collinwood. Big Four-Beech Grove. MC-Jackson. CASO-St Thomas.

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Posted by rrnut282 on Monday, August 15, 2022 12:17 PM

Murphy Siding

 

 
Backshop

 

 
Murphy Siding

 

 

MidlandMike

It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed.  When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.

 

 

 

Panhandle ?

 

 

 

 

The PRR line from Pittsburgh, through Columbus and Indianapolis, to St Louis was known as the "Panhandle", since it crossed the panhandle of West Virginia.

 

 

 

 

Thanks. I was trying to figure out why someone thought Indianna had a panhandle. I even went so far as to Google search states with panhandles. To be honest, some states seem to be pushing it. I'm looking at you Nebraska. Mischief

 

 

I thought you were asking who built the Logansport car repair facility since the ex PRR Panhandle was on one side and the ex Wabash on North side.

One other thing to consider, is the Pennsy liked to move its passenger trains on their own track so the plodding freights didn't slow them down.  Witness the almost straight as an arrow Fort Wayne Line across the state vs the wandering route of the Panhandle to keep grades generally lower.  This isn't a perfect deliniation, but it helps explain the muliple main lines PRR had and no longer had enough traffic to support.  This also worked to the detriment of the PRR.  NYC may have done this elsewhere, but not so much across Indiana. 

Mike (2-8-2)
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Posted by rrnut282 on Monday, August 15, 2022 12:23 PM

Convicted One

 

 
mudchicken
(and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.)

 

And don't forget the mighty FW&J. There is your outlier in this discussion. Former NYC...almost completely gone (in Indiana).

 

As an aside:  I'm riding a steam train on an Indiana remnant of the FW&J this month. 

Mike (2-8-2)
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Posted by rrnut282 on Monday, August 15, 2022 12:26 PM

IIRC, the date on the East wall is 1908 or thereabouts.  

MP173

Unsure about the Logansport locomotive shop.  I have a photo somewhere taken in 1979.

My guess and only a guess is that it was steam era.

There is a railcar repair shop in that area now.

ed

 

Mike (2-8-2)

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