tree68 Euclid If the crossing had a surface clearance deficiency that could trap large trucks with trailers, the road authority had the responsibility to warn drivers of this anomaly rather than just letting them find it by driving into it and possibly suffering the consequences. While I agree in principle, we still have the possibility that the driver didn't realize the landing legs would not clear. He was not towing a lowboy. The discussion has also been had here that signage did exist at one point. Whether it was there at the time of the incident, or was adequate, is unsettled. The existence of new asphalt at the crossing raises the possibility that the track had been recently raised... (Google Streetview)
Euclid If the crossing had a surface clearance deficiency that could trap large trucks with trailers, the road authority had the responsibility to warn drivers of this anomaly rather than just letting them find it by driving into it and possibly suffering the consequences.
While I agree in principle, we still have the possibility that the driver didn't realize the landing legs would not clear. He was not towing a lowboy.
The discussion has also been had here that signage did exist at one point. Whether it was there at the time of the incident, or was adequate, is unsettled.
The existence of new asphalt at the crossing raises the possibility that the track had been recently raised... (Google Streetview)
FINAL responsibility is on the driver - the driver is SUPPOSED to know his rig and what it can and can't do. When he attempts to do something the rig is not able to perform - the onus is on the driver. PERIOD.
The driver put is rig in the position it was - he was not forced to put it in that position by some other party.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDFINAL responsibility is on the driver - the driver is SUPPOSED to know his rig and what it can and can't do. When he attempts to do something the rig is not able to perform - the onus is on the driver. PERIOD. The driver put is rig in the position it was - he was not forced to put it in that position by some other party.
No disagreement whatsoever. There are, however, those things called mitigating circumstances.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 BaltACD FINAL responsibility is on the driver - the driver is SUPPOSED to know his rig and what it can and can't do. When he attempts to do something the rig is not able to perform - the onus is on the driver. PERIOD. The driver put is rig in the position it was - he was not forced to put it in that position by some other party. No disagreement whatsoever. There are, however, those things called mitigating circumstances.
BaltACD FINAL responsibility is on the driver - the driver is SUPPOSED to know his rig and what it can and can't do. When he attempts to do something the rig is not able to perform - the onus is on the driver. PERIOD. The driver put is rig in the position it was - he was not forced to put it in that position by some other party.
The only mitigation is between the drivers ears and that is not a acceptable excuse. Irrespective of any signs or the absence of signs - his eyes have to view the situation with his knowledge of what his vehicle can do or cannot do. When he attempts something that he knows his vehicle cannot do - it is on him.
BaltACDThe only mitigation is between the drivers ears and that is not a acceptable excuse.
When I went back and looked at the video today, I noticed new asphalt on the crossing - and it looks like there might have been more height added in the process. This is where I'd apply mitigating circumstances. Never mind that he was taking a detour because of the construction, if that crossing was a couple of inches higher, it's possible that he'd been over it before with the same type of rig, with no problems. If he had, I doubt he got out and measured his clearance at that point. He would have cleared, if by fractions of an inch, and kept on going.
Still a lot we don't know.
A few weeks ago I went to the home improvement store and picked up some concrete pavers. Loaded them in the back of the pickup, made a couple of stops, and after getting fuel, headed home.
As I pulled out of the gas station, my trailer hitch hit the ramp. No damage, but that was the first time in 11 years of driving that truck that I'd ever done that at that location, and I'm there about once a week. The weight of the pavers was enough to drop the rear end enough to hit. Who know how much the hitch clears by when I don't have much weight back there... Might be a fraction of an inch...
BaltACD tree68 BaltACD FINAL responsibility is on the driver - the driver is SUPPOSED to know his rig and what it can and can't do. When he attempts to do something the rig is not able to perform - the onus is on the driver. PERIOD. The driver put is rig in the position it was - he was not forced to put it in that position by some other party. No disagreement whatsoever. There are, however, those things called mitigating circumstances. The only mitigation is between the drivers ears and that is not a acceptable excuse. Irrespective of any signs or the absence of signs - his eyes have to view the situation with his knowledge of what his vehicle can do or cannot do. When he attempts something that he knows his vehicle cannot do - it is on him.
So is there a solution or just do nothing?
BaltACD tree68 Euclid If the crossing had a surface clearance deficiency that could trap large trucks with trailers, the road authority had the responsibility to warn drivers of this anomaly rather than just letting them find it by driving into it and possibly suffering the consequences. While I agree in principle, we still have the possibility that the driver didn't realize the landing legs would not clear. He was not towing a lowboy. The discussion has also been had here that signage did exist at one point. Whether it was there at the time of the incident, or was adequate, is unsettled. The existence of new asphalt at the crossing raises the possibility that the track had been recently raised... (Google Streetview) FINAL responsibility is on the driver - the driver is SUPPOSED to know his rig and what it can and can't do. When he attempts to do something the rig is not able to perform - the onus is on the driver. PERIOD. The driver put is rig in the position it was - he was not forced to put it in that position by some other party.
tree68 As I pulled out of the gas station, my trailer hitch hit the ramp. No damage, but that was the first time in 11 years of driving that truck that I'd ever done that at that location, and I'm there about once a week. The weight of the pavers was enough to drop the rear end enough to hit. Who know how much the hitch clears by when I don't have much weight back there... Might be a fraction of an inch...
As you travel about your area, I suspect you will notice a number areas where there are local dips, humps or sags - if you look in the middle of the roadway you will invariably see a number of drag and scrape marks from trailer hitches and/or trailers that 'routinely' drag across the area.
Raced at New Jersey Motorsports Park several years ago. After the racing I was following my GPS to route me back home as this was the first time I had ever been to the track. As I was following the GPS route I came to a detour from the GPS route to the Delaware Memorial Bridge - the detour put me on a rural suburban' type road - houses on the South Side for a ways with a forest/wetlands on the North Side that was shortly on both sides. Right at a 'dip' the authorities had place a 'BUMP' sign - what the bump was was the top of a round culvert that drained water between the North and South sides of the road, however on each side of the top of the culvert the road saged beneath the crest by about 8 to 10 inches. Driving a car at 15-20 MPH when seeing and reacting to the BUMP sign - no problems but a couple of instants of being uncomfortable from the BUMP; however, I was towing a 'low' centerframe trailer - when the tow vehicle went into the dip on the leaving side of the culvert it drove the centerframe member into the crest of the culvert - breaking it - 7 PM on a Sunday Night and I have no real idea of where I am. Called AAA and they said they would send someone after they cleaned up some mess on the NJ Turnpike - in the meantime the local police came by to see what the trouble was - Officer said he knew a guy with a mobile welder and he would send him by - 20 minutes later the guy shows up, says it will be $100, I say I don't have that much cash - he tells me there is a ATM in the WaWa further up the road. We jack the trailer into a position for welding and I cut away from it and go to the WaWa. By the time I return the welding is done, cash changes hands, I hook up and am on my way - total delay about 2 hours. AAA showed up as I was rehooking to the trailer - I thanked them.
BaltACDAs I was following the GPS route I came to a detour from the GPS route to the Delaware Memorial Bridge - the detour put me on a rural suburban' type road - houses on the South Side for a ways with a forest/wetlands on the North Side that was shortly on both sides. Right at a 'dip' the authorities had place a 'BUMP' sign - what the bump was was the top of a round culvert that drained water between the North and South sides of the road, however on each side of the top of the culvert the road saged beneath the crest by about 8 to 10 inches.
I wonder how a self-driving car or truck would have done here?
York1 John
York1I wonder how a self-driving car or truck would have done here?
The first consideration is whether the routes involve Carnegie-Mellon's idea of running an analogue of the Google mapping vehicles over the routes to coordinate their surface levels with master GIS information to give an accurate, and at least in theory updatable, assessment of grade that a self-driving combination could use to evaluate high- or low-centering (and correct itself to negotiate, if necessary). If that is present, an autonomous combination would either 'choose' a route without known dips or humps, or slow down and -- in this case -- use adaptive or leveling suspension to bring the trailer nose high enough to clear the obstacle even if with some scraping...
If the route is not so mapped, the vehicle has to do a bit better at prescanning the route and creating the effective TERCOM map for the suspension compliance. Since this is limited in its ability to presense 'dips' this might result in some fairly abrupt braking once the situation with 'two dips and a culvert' was recognized, probably still a few feet before the front of the combination reached the point where line-of-sight showed the bottom of the far dip. Forward speed would then be controlled until the (calculated) point of greatest trailer-nose depression was reached. Again, adaptive or leveling suspension would be activated "appropriately" to get the nose to clear if possible.
There have been some fun discussions about how autonomous vehicles will respond when routes are blocked or turn out to be impassable. While they can probably perform reverse turns with a trailer better than most human drivers, there will be many situations -- I suspect Balt's was one -- where physical turnaround would be impossible, and the combination would have to be backed some distance before it could be turned. This is less of a problem if the autonomous guidance has access to individual brakes on the trailer wheels.
Part of the answer, of course, is that it is unlikely that a trailer like Balt's would just be attached to a bumper hitch on an autonomous pickup and hauled off. Whether a given vehicle's "skill" extended to knowing how to cope with a less-than-'perfect' trailer is an interesting discussion, but one that I think is best reserved for a much later stage of 'autonomous optimization' than we're likely to get soon.
York1 BaltACD As I was following the GPS route I came to a detour from the GPS route to the Delaware Memorial Bridge - the detour put me on a rural suburban' type road - houses on the South Side for a ways with a forest/wetlands on the North Side that was shortly on both sides. Right at a 'dip' the authorities had place a 'BUMP' sign - what the bump was was the top of a round culvert that drained water between the North and South sides of the road, however on each side of the top of the culvert the road saged beneath the crest by about 8 to 10 inches. I wonder how a self-driving car or truck would have done here?
BaltACD As I was following the GPS route I came to a detour from the GPS route to the Delaware Memorial Bridge - the detour put me on a rural suburban' type road - houses on the South Side for a ways with a forest/wetlands on the North Side that was shortly on both sides. Right at a 'dip' the authorities had place a 'BUMP' sign - what the bump was was the top of a round culvert that drained water between the North and South sides of the road, however on each side of the top of the culvert the road saged beneath the crest by about 8 to 10 inches.
Suspect it would have proceed at 'track speed' - since the trailer doesn't have brakes - it would have drug it until it 'fell off'. The 'Bump' sign would not have been programmed into its 'memory'.
It would be a very neat trick if when something like this happens where a truck gets stranded like that would foul the block system.
I would think that with all this technology we have today, that shouldn't be that hard to do. Highway departments should help with some of the costs since both highway and rail users would benefit.
I suspect that the hardest part of such an idea is not in technology but in getting politicians, State Highway department officials and railroaders all on the same page.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Fred M Cain It would be a very neat trick if when something like this happens where a truck gets stranded like that would foul the block system. I would think that with all this technology we have today, that shouldn't be that hard to do. Highway departments should help with some of the costs since both highway and rail users would benefit. I suspect that the hardest part of such an idea is not in technology but in getting politicians, State Highway department officials and railroaders all on the same page. Regards, Fred M. Cain
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Does not matter if it's a block system or not. Onus is on the vehicle operator. No mention anywhere if truck driver was even aware of the ENS sign, much less called the 800 ENS Number (1-800-232-0144 ). Approach grades are the responsibility of the road agency as was the placement of the high-center risk sign out of the MUTCD manual (W10-5). Leaving the jackstands down was a result of deficient vehicle operator error. Original comments stand and Indiana Statute just magnifies the InDOT and local road agency engineering and maintenance blunders.
Indiana*9-21-8-40. Types of vehicles or equipment requiring notice to railroad prior to crossing railroad grading -- Procedure to be followed. (Slow and Low)
(a) A person may not operate or move a caterpillar tractor, steam shovel, derrick, roller, or any equipment or structure weighing more than ten (10) tons and having a normal operating speed of not more than six (6) miles per hour or a vertical body or load clearance of less than nine (9) inches above the level surface of a roadway upon or across tracks at a railroad grade crossingwithout first complying with this section.
(b) Notice of an intended crossing under this section shall be given to a superintendent of the railroad, and a reasonable time shall be given to the railroad to provide proper protection at thecrossing.
(c) Before making a crossing under this section, the person operating or moving a vehicle or equipment described in subsection (a) shall first stop the vehicle or equipment not less than ten (10) feet and not more than fifty (50) feet from the nearest rail or the railway. While stopped, the person shall listen and look in both directions along the track for an approaching train or other on-track equipment and for signals indicating the approach of a train or other on-track equipment. The person shall not proceed until the crossing can be made safely.
(d) A crossing may not be made when warning is given by automatic signal, crossing gates, a flagman, or otherwise of the immediate approach of a railroad train or other on-track equipment.
Ind. Code Ann. § 9-21-8-40 (LexisNexis 2012)
*8-23-5-2. Railroad grade crossings.
(2) in a manner as to afford security for life and property of persons and vehicles using the highway or road.
(h) The railroad is responsible for the repair and maintenance of the grade and surface occupied by the railroad tracks, including the space:
(1) between the rails of a railroad track;
(2) between the railroad tracks if there are at least two (2) railroad tracks; and
(3) that extends eighteen (18) inches in width on the outside of each rail of a railroad track.
Ind. Code Ann. § 8-23-5-2 (LexisNexis 2012)
There's several grade crossings in my area that are on approved OTR truck routes that the local highway departments are having to redo the approaches on recently. Why what has changed in the OTR industry. You've all seen those side skirts that are mandatory thanks to CARB well they have been getting ripped off on grade crossings that lead to several major industries in my area. To the point where the trucking companies literally went to the state and county with bills saying you either pay for these repairs or we are no longer serving the largest employers. It didn't matter where the tandems were on the trailer sucked to the nose or all the way back. Plants are redoing their docks with any drop off into the bay with a shallower angle. Those freaking things are a bigger problem than the fuel savings they've generated.
Shadow the Cats owner <SNIP>. To the point where the trucking companies literally went to the state and county with bills saying you either pay for these repairs or we are no longer serving the largest employers. <SNIP>
<SNIP>.
To the point where the trucking companies literally went to the state and county with bills saying you either pay for these repairs or we are no longer serving the largest employers.
<SNIP>
The OTR industry can not keep affording to pay 2K to replace side skirts from poorly built grade crossings. I know my boss has told our customers that if we keep damaging our skirts on their docks we will be billing them for the replacements. Why they are federal mandated now so they are required equipment. Sorry but he's not eating that much in costs when the shippers where aware for years of this requirement coming down the line and could have rebuilt their docks to prevent damage. Yes they are flexible to a certain point but they can not fold up to prevent being ripped off.
Sheesh, the aero skirts I did for trucks in the '80s were hinged laterally, had weighted flexible skirts, and had periodic small castered wheels to get them to fold preferentially when inevitably high-centered or forked wrong.
Even in California, you'd think they could figure it out themselves in 35 years of 'experience'...
... oh, wait. EGR. DPF and regen. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more.
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