NKP guy CSSHEGEWISCH they tend not to work too well over water or high level crossings. I take your point, kinda. But isn't the PRR viaduct over the Susquehanna River and the E-L's Tunkhannock & Nicholson viaducts proof that they do?
CSSHEGEWISCH they tend not to work too well over water or high level crossings.
I take your point, kinda. But isn't the PRR viaduct over the Susquehanna River and the E-L's Tunkhannock & Nicholson viaducts proof that they do?
He doesn't mean they don't work well as bridges; it's that the impediment to 'navigation' and the constriction of the channel by the relatively many piers are a problem; and that the cost for long spans or higher piers rapidly goes up out of proportion to modern steel construction.
We had an Erie steel bridge that was thrown up as an emergency expedient in 1885 recently be replaced ... by an indeterminate-construction arch structure, I believe... which was limited only by its older construction and lower inherent factor of safety from staying in service much longer. Poughkeepsie was a rickety thing from day one, but it took a fire combined with a bankruptcy to kill it.
What I have not seen taken up yet are tragic and memorable accidents from very small bridge collapses. Or even culverts.
OvermodHe doesn't mean they don't work well as bridges; it's that the impediment to 'navigation' and the constriction of the channel by the relatively many piers are a problem;
On second look and consideration I think you are exactly right that that's what was meant.
Scouring of a bridge pier came very close to causing the failure of the KCS bridge over the Mississippi river at Vicksburgh, Ms. Cannot remeber how long it was out of service. That toll bridge scarred me to death one night when it still was the only way to cross the river. I was on the toll bridge which had rather narrow lanes. Going east next to rails an IC freight came west with headlight in eyes and the shaking and swaying of the bridge caused me to stop until train left bridge. Of course I was not the only one to stop.
Road closed once I-20 bridge over Mississippi was opened to traffic.
BaltACD tree68 ... OTOH, I know of a steel girder bridge built on stone piers, that has had one mid-river pier settle. Remember - there was a time when manpower was cheap and machinery was expensive - and that was the time when many railroad landmarks were built. Scour of moving water has done in more than one bridge pier - highway or railroad makes no difference, Mother Nature doesn't care whose engineering she defeats.
tree68 ... OTOH, I know of a steel girder bridge built on stone piers, that has had one mid-river pier settle. Remember - there was a time when manpower was cheap and machinery was expensive - and that was the time when many railroad landmarks were built.
...
OTOH, I know of a steel girder bridge built on stone piers, that has had one mid-river pier settle.
Remember - there was a time when manpower was cheap and machinery was expensive - and that was the time when many railroad landmarks were built.
Scour of moving water has done in more than one bridge pier - highway or railroad makes no difference, Mother Nature doesn't care whose engineering she defeats.
Another problem is sometimes when a bridge pier does not reach bedrock, they will pound in a lot of wood piling as a base which might not last forever. I think this was a problem that caused the Tappen Zee highway bridge in NY to be replaced.
Overmod What I have not seen taken up yet are tragic and memorable accidents from very small bridge collapses. Or even culverts.
You mean like the one at Chatsworth Illinois in 1887?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1887_Great_Chatsworth_train_wreck
http://www.peoriacountyillinois.info/news/chatsworthacc.html
Jeff
jeffhergertYou mean like the one at Chatsworth Illinois
August 7, 1904 8PM Eden, CO (just north of Pueblo)
Missouri Pacific Train #11 on Rio Grande/ Engine & 8 cars into Dry Creek Arroyo
89 dead, 22 never found
....and very few know about it. (wrong sized bridge for the drainage area involved) If you are southbound on I-25 coming into Pueblo, stop at the rest area just north of town and read the plaque (if the lowlifes have not defaced it again)
To take a slightly different tack, there was a major bridge failure in Australa which was seen coming and no accident resulted.
The Hawkesbury River Bridge north of Sydney, New South Wales is on the main line linking the two largest cities in the state, Sydney and Newcastle. The bridge was built by the New York Bridge Company in 1889. but by 1939 the second pier from the south bank had shifted owing to it not being set on bedrock.
The Hawkesbury River is a major river, and the area around the bridge was described by a Norwegian friend as a :"fjiord". The climb up from the river on the south side is one of the steepest climbs in the country. So it isn't surprising that the bedrock is a long way down in the silt.
Much was said in 1946 when a new bridge was completed that the problem would not recur since the new pier in the affected area was sunk hundreds of feet through the silt to bedrock.
Now however, this pier seems to be shifting, again some fifty years after contstruction. It is possible that the rock reached in the 1940s was just a layer in the silt and not bedrock.
Currently only one freight train is alllowed on the double track bridge at a time.
Peter
The Milwaukee had a tragic bridge failure on Jun 19, 1938 with the Custer Creek bridge (east of Mles City) being damaged by a flash flood moments before the Olympian crossed it. Two cars ended up submerged in the floodwaters and death toll was estimated at 47.
Personal note, I remember seeing this on a "This Day in History" newspaper column and mentioning to my dad. My dad said he remembered hearing about people waiting for that train at the Miles City depot.
Erik_MagThe Milwaukee had a tragic bridge failure on Jun 19, 1938 with the Custer Creek bridge (east of Mles City) being damaged by a flash flood moments before the Olympian crossed it. Two cars ended up submerged in the floodwaters and death toll was estimated at 47. Personal note, I remember seeing this on a "This Day in History" newspaper column and mentioning to my dad. My dad said he remembered hearing about people waiting for that train at the Miles City depot.
https://dotlibrary.specialcollection.net/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=(select+2273)
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Never too old to have a happy childhood!
A Memorable collaspe that only hurt pride was the bridge that 2 CSX locos dropped down into almost a V shape.
In 1941 the international rail bridge at the Soo collapsed under a freight engine, killing the engineer & conductor. This part of the bridge was a (unusual for rail) double leaf drawbridge. One theory was that the locking mechanism was not engaged.
https://www.sootoday.com/columns/remember-this/the-railway-disaster-that-almost-shut-down-shipping-1176905
Circa 1880 (?) the NHRR between New Haven and NYC was expanded from 2 to 4 tracks and thestrentire line was elevated with many bridges spanning streets and highways.The abutments for these bridges were massive stone blocks with mortar joints , indeed a very "labor intensive" type of construction. I-95 , constructed in 1954, very closely parallels the NHRR from New Haven to New Rochelle. 15 years ago, the I=95 bridge spanning Mianus Harbor collapsed. This occurred late evening so few lives were lost ; had this occurred during the very congested "rush-hour" the result would have been a "body count"
A bit longer ago than 15 years, it was 1983.
That's OK, time flies, faster than all of us realize. I remember that collapse, and it kind of shocks me it was 37 years ago
The official cause was a rusted pin-and-hanger assembly, but here's the whole story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mianus_River_Bridge
I remember this particularly well because I crossed it in the Cadillac on my way up to Newport less than half an hour before it fell down. I remember that being in the wee hours of the morning, not late evening.
As I recall, the story was that crews repaving the bridge had covered over the drain system... then they salted the roads every winter. And inspectors could see the pin no more than, say, you could see the critical place in an Allied Full Cushion truck.
I am still not exactly sure why pin-hanger designs, especially those which fall catastrophically on the failure of one pin, are actually approved for construction...
The Tariffville Bridge Disaster on the Connecticut Western Railroad involved 2 locomotives and 4 cars. There were 13 deaths.
https://www.wnpr.org/post/tragedy-tariffville-railroad-wreck-1878
Overmod I am still not exactly sure why pin-hanger designs, especially those which fall catastrophically on the failure of one pin, are actually approved for construction...
Seems that "catastrophic single point of failure" became a concern after the 1967 failure of the "Silver Bridge" over the Ohio River. I'd guess that the I-95 bridges were designed before that incident as were the I-35W bridge in the Twin Cities. Much like concrete bridge column design changed dramatically after the Feb 1971 Sylmar earthquake with the spetacular collapse, fortunately with very few (1?) fatalities. N.B. The pickup truck that got hit was being pursued by the CHP.
If I remember correctly it was severe corrosion that killed the Silver Bridge and the I35W bridge as well.
Flintlock76If I remember correctly it was severe corrosion that killed the Silver Bridge and the I35W bridge as well.
Corrosion coupled with single point failure.
What about that bridge in Italy ?
NHRR President Charles Mellen aquired the Central New England RR for the sole purpose of utilizing the Poughkeepsie Bridge and constructing a 2-track freight line between the bridge and a junction with the "main line" at a location West of New Haven, thus forming the most direct route for freight between Southern New England and Chicago and points West. During WW1 the NHRR imposed an embargo , or "prohibition" on types of freight to be received because congested freight yards. During WW2 , the peak period of traffic on the NHRR, the Poughkeepsie Bridge was used to by-pass the NHRR-PRR car-float transfer across New York Harbor. The "Engineering Record" volumes 17 & 18, 1888, has detailed info on the bridge construction.
Speaking of the Poughkeepsie Bridge, the bridge shows up at the eight minute mark in this Alco "commercial" from around 1950. A fun watch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO_qDDoa6Cc
After struggling with Trains IT system to be able to reply, I have a couple books to recommend on the Tay Bridge.
The Fall of the Tay Bridge by David Swinfin
Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay by Peter R. Lewis
Both give a lot of detailed information about the problems with the construction
For the Quebec Bridge, see The Bridge at Quebec by William D. Middleton
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