Probably something we need Dave Klepper's input on, he was AT the 1939 World's Fair!
Interesting to compare the size of that British locomotive to the American one.
Bingo! I just did a quick Wiki search, and that British locomotive is the "Duchess of Hamilton," it WAS displayed at the 1939 Worlds Fair and is still around today as an exhibit in York, England.
http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/sunday-streamline-68-blue-and-crimson
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
That's it! Too bad the PRR's S-1 from the same Fair wasn't saved, or a Dreyfuss Hudson. Oh well...
Ah, yes, the Flying Scotsman! I have two nice slides that I took when the train went through Tuscaloosa on its way to New Orleans--I captured the locomootive from one side of a street bridge, and was able to immediately cross over the street and get a picture of the rear. I regreted that i was not able to ride the train from Birminham to Meridian.
When My wife and I were in San Francisco in July of 1972, we were able to tour the train, drinking tea in the rear car, and walking through the train into the engine snd bsck.
Johnny
Yes, the Coronation Scot was in New York for the 1939 World's Fair.
Otto Perry took a picture of it there, note Long Island coach/MU in the background.
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/66610/rec/2
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/66614/rec/5
Apparently the locomotive returned to the UK during the war but the luxury coaches did not, and never entered Coronation service.
As noted earlier, this wasn't the first LMS engine to visit the US, LMS Royal Scot 6100 (or the locomotive that switched identities with the real 6100, I don't remember which one) visited in 1933 and made it at least as far as Denver, where Otto Perry also managed to photogragh it.
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/66612/rec/3
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/66613/rec/4
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/66609/rec/1
The "Royal Scot" that came to the USA was No 6152 and not 6100, but it is thought that the identities did not change back on return to the UK and the locomotive that visited the USA in 1933 is preserved (although it was rebuilt with a new type of boiler and looks quite different.)
Visiting the USA is good for British steam locomotives. Another locomotive that appeared at the B&O "Fair of the Iron Horse" in 1927, "King George V" is preserved in working order and retains the bell fitted for the visit.
Counting "Flying Scotsman" and "Duchess of Hamilton", that makes four locomotives that visted the USA that are preserved.
But Otto Perry's photographs are an amazing resource, particularly since you can zoom in on detail.
M535C
Anyone know what kind of tri-motor aircraft is racing the train in one of wanswheel's pictures? I'm drawing a blank on that one.
An Armstrong-Whitworth! So that's what it was!
Thanks for posting wanswheel, and thanks for that Pathe' newsreel!
You know, certainly "the good old days" weren't always good, but there were times they must have had a ball back then. All that cool stuff!
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=photos%2farmstrong-whitworth+argosy+ii+%3f&view=detailv2&&id=04686493CE1498DD421E200C8AF74098E394A51E&selectedIndex=11&ccid=HC%2bDezP7&simid=608030055612680542&thid=OIP.M1c2f837b33fb9d6332f3c0e9fec20080o0&ajaxhist=0
Firelock76 An Armstrong-Whitworth! So that's what it was! Thanks for posting wanswheel, and thanks for that Pathe' newsreel! You know, certainly "the good old days" weren't always good, but there were times they must have had a ball in back then. All that cool stuff!
You know, certainly "the good old days" weren't always good, but there were times they must have had a ball in back then. All that cool stuff!
YEP! Thanks, Mike! (wanswheel)
That aircraft had me tearing my hair out...Most of the Tri-planes manufactured during that inter-war period were monoplanes. At first I thought that it was some kind of a European-liscensed Fokker product/varient (based on the JU52's, and/or their predecessor W33s(?).
Then I was on to the Armstrong-Whitworth (Argosy I&II model). It was an open cockpit, bi-winged tri-motor, with the passenger cabin inclosed. They are the same company that manufactured the "Argosy' Cargo aircraft of more recent vintage. see link @ http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=photos%2farmstrong-whitworth+argosy+ii+%3f&view=detailv2&&id=04686493CE1498DD421E200C8AF74098E394A51E&selectedIndex=11&ccid=HC%2bDezP7&simid=608030055612680542&thid=OIP.M1c2f837b33fb9d6332f3c0e9fec20080o0&ajaxhist=0
Anyway here is a link to a photo of an ArgosyII @ http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Dice/2996/armstrong-whitworth-argosy.jpg
Isn't the four-engined biplane with the angled struts a Handley-Page?
It's a Handley-Page all right, an HP-45. Good aiplanes, not particularly pretty, but good planes nonetheless.
There were two variants, the HP-42 and HP-45, "Herakles," shown in the newsreel, was a 45 model. All variants flew from 1931 to 1939 when they were commandeered for RAF use. Excellent safety records, they never lost a passenger.
wanswheel “15 June 1928: Imperial Airways’ Captain Gordon P. Olley flew an Armstong Whitworth A.W.154 Argosy Mk.1, G-EBLF, named City of Glasgow, with 18 passengers aboard, from Croydon to Edinburgh Turnhouse in a race with the London and North Eastern Railways’ famed A1 Class Flying Scotsman. The apple green steam-powered 4–6–2 Pacific-type locomotive pulled the world’s fastest passenger train in express service from London, England to Glasgow, Scotland.” http://www.thisdayinaviation.com/tag/imperial-airways/ 1932
I think the above still photo might be a fake.
Certainly it doesn't match the caption very well.
The aircaft is not an Argosy but was known as the "Heracles" class.
The locomotive is clearly not 4472 and not even an A1, but is A3 class 2744 (off the top of my head named "Grand Parade").
The train nameplate on the smokebox door is not the standard nameplate which was white with black lettering without the definite article before the name.
So the train is probably not the "Flying Scotsman", the locomotive isn't "Flying Scotsman" and the aircraft was not the one involved and it is probably added to the photo in post production.
The photo on the Berwick bridge looks more or less genuine but the aircraft may have posed for a shot later.
M636C
EDIT: A closer look at No 2744's tender shows it to have the three coal rails at the side of the coal space that identifies it as the original type of tender fitted to the A1 class, but specifically a non-corridor tender.
The photo on the Berwick bridge definitely shows an A1 class (no "patches" on the smokebox to provide access to the larger superheater header) and the correct train nameboard on the smokebox and a corridor tender, although the cab side number is obscured.... But with the correct aircraft, that could be a shot from the day...
A little more modern -
http://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-tv/great-train-race-part-14-series-13-episode-1
Holy Cow.....what timing.!
Any of you Guys/Gals good at math.....what were the Vegas Odds on THAT happening.?
M636CThe "Royal Scot" that came to the USA was No 6152 and not 6100, but it is thought that the identities did not change back on return to the UK and the locomotive that visited the USA in 1933 is preserved (although it was rebuilt with a new type of boiler and looks quite different.) Visiting the USA is good for British steam locomotives. Another locomotive that appeared at the B&O "Fair of the Iron Horse" in 1927, "King George V" is preserved in working order and retains the bell fitted for the visit. Counting "Flying Scotsman" and "Duchess of Hamilton", that makes four locomotives that visted the USA that are preserved. But Otto Perry's photographs are an amazing resource, particularly since you can zoom in on detail. M535C
Visiting the USA is good for British steam locomotives. Another locomotive that appeared at the B&O "Fair of the Iron Horse" in 1927, "King George V" is preserved in working order and retains the bell fitted for the visit. Counting "Flying Scotsman" and "Duchess of Hamilton", that makes four locomotives that visted the USA that are preserved.
Thanks, M636C.
It looks like 6152 was named The King's Dragoon Guardsman and so the original 6100 did not survive. The second 6100 returned to steam this August.
(And it looks like our font of knowledge M636C has switched identities with an unknown M535C. Perhaps another model for the Diesels Catalogued but not Built thread? :) )
I have always wondered why early British airliners lacked enclosed cockpits. It seems strange to have the pilots up above but I supose it was a carryover from earlier days.
Yes, I did see the Flysing Scottsman at the Britisih Pavilion at the 1939 WF. I don't think we were allowed to visit the cab interior, but did walk through the train's interior. Age 7-1/2, and that is my memory..
wanswheel M636C, the Getty photo of the Flying Scotsman with the strange engine number might be the Junior Scotsman, the second section, I guess. The airplane’s letters are right. The caption was copied from This Day in Aviation.
I probably should explain that my previous posting was made during a break at my place of work. One oddity of that workplace is that many websites are blocked and as a result I don't see some photos linked from blocked websites.
For whatever reason, the Getty photograph didn't appear at all and the video was blocked (as are virtually all videos) but the Caters photo did appear (with the HP42) and I commented on that as if it was the only photo (because it was the only one I could see).
So it was that one that illustrated 2744 "Grand Parade" (it is really sad when you can remember a locomotive name like that- its claim to fame was that it was badly damaged in a derailment and a replacement locomotive appeared before the original entered the workshops) is the obvious fake with the non corridor tender.
To address the Getty photo, I note that the former Midland Railway's St Pancras station with its church-like spire which should appear where the AW Argosy appears is not visible, suggesting that that shot is also retouched, if at least with the correct aircraft for the 1928 race.
The locomotive in the Getty photo 2552 "Sansovino" (one of the 1924 batch built by North British) is at least an A1 with a corridor tender on the "Flying Scotsman". I don't think the headboard was carried by other trains including what might be regarded as a second section.
Having looked at the video, it looks as if the Caters photo is a frame from the film of the 1932 race (or radio experiment) with the HP42 retouched in place at a much lower altitude.
Strangely, the video suggests that the "fake" headboard was actually in place on loco 2744 in 1932, even though that loco could not have worked a non stop train, since its non corridor tender is clear in the video as well.
To add further to the confusion, the train overflown in the video had the name "Flying Scotsman" painted in white on the roof of one of the middle passenger cars, but this wasn't visible in the ground movie shots of the train, suggesting that it wasn't the same train in the air and ground shots.
I'd almost believe that for some technical reason, the ground movie couldn't show the same train as the air movie, and knowing this, a non standard headboard was placed on an earlier or later train just for the filming.
And this is quite apart from the fact that we are looking at two events, in 1928 about the time of the start of non stop operation and four years later in 1932. The 1928 "race" was on 15 June, the non stop service started on 1 May.
And I apologise for mistyping my screen name in the earlier post.
Have fun with your trains
While the caption for the Berwick bridge photo helps. the earlier reproduction shows much more detail. The headboard may not read "Flying Scotsman" but it isn't clear. The last two digits of the locomotive number are "53", and since it is an A1 and not an A3 it should be 2553, one of the 1924 locomotives. It appears to have a corridor tender.
I felt I should comment on the tile of the video on the 1932 race/radio demonstration. The name "In the Van" suggests "leading" as the traditional meaning, in reference to the advanced technology (voice radio to an aircraft) but British press writers have liking for puns and the radio was set up in a baggage vehicle, (as seen by the small slit like windows near roof level) known in England as a "guard's van".
Having returned to a location where I can see the Getty images photo, I'm tempted to say that it looks like a real photo of the airliner and the train together and the other photo with the train much closer has had the aircraft retouched in. It looks as though the train was stopped, or at least slowed down for the photo.
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