QUOTE: Originally posted by driver8 What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Quentin
QUOTE: Originally posted by tabiery Boeing 737, 707 and Douglas DC-8 DC-9 jet airplanes revolutionized travel. Three day trips were now five hours. And the Interstate highway system was the final dagger in the heart of the streamliners. After the mid 1960's long distance trains operated almost empty. Safe, fast, convenient and courteous air service blew rail travel away.
QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH Back in 1969, when Western Pacific and Rio Grande filed for discontinuance of their share of the California Zephyr, it was established that the train had an operating ratio of 125% even when it was sold out. The discontinuance petition wasn't filed because the train was empty but because the railroads couldn't afford to keep operating it.
Originally posted by AntonioFP45 M.W Hemphill, Outstanding info. Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jchnhtfd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: US 1,537 posts Posted by jchnhtfd on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 2:30 PM Actually, there is a surprisingly large number of late EMD F's still in revenue service, here and there around the continent. There are quite a number of E's and F's in private ownership, too. Some of the classes are just gone, though, or so nearly so as to make no matter -- the Alcos, the Baldwins, and the F-Ms. Jamie Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 2:35 PM There were 5 S/line cars attached to the back of a D/stack EB on the FT. Madison cam a short while ago. Originally posted by driver8 Hello, Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply mustanggt Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Massachusetts 664 posts Posted by mustanggt on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 2:36 PM QUOTE: Of course the streamliner concept is alive and well, The Acela is clearly a streamline train, and so is the rebuilt Rohr Turboliner. Even the Colorado Railcar can be called streamlined. But for the classic, enjoy The Canadian, exept for the locomotives. Can't forget the GE Genesis diesels, or the F59PHi. C280 rollin' Reply tatans Member sinceMay 2004 4,115 posts Posted by tatans on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 4:52 PM Steamerfan , you must have read my mind on diesels, I refer to them as tipped-over Metal gym lockers with motors. Streamliners??? They all ended up here in Canada and we are still using them on our so-called passenger service. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 5:19 PM The term Streamliner was a brand name used by the UP starting in 1933 for its first light weight trains such the City of Salina, City of Portland, etc. When these trains got dome cars in the 1950s the were rebranded and became Domeliners. Bob Reply passengerfan Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Central Valley California 2,841 posts Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 8:31 PM Another problem was by the time of the Amtrak takeover very little equipment was less than twenty to thirty years old and much had seen deferred maintenance which meant heavy expenditures to put it back in reasonable order. On top of that Budd was ready to exit the passengercar business and AC&F had already left. This left Pullman who was lacking interest in passenger equipment as well. Sure the Amfleet cars came from Budd and the first order of Superliners came from Pullman but any future cars are going to be a major expense. The railroads themselves were not interested in investing in new equipment and it is for that reason only that Santa Fe and several others joined Amtrak. They were not prepared to invest the necessary funds into new equipment. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 7, 2005 8:01 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan QUOTE: Originally posted by driver8 What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Simple answer is the same thing that caused the demise of Steam.....Cost. But this time, not the cost to run them, but the cost to make them. In cost saving measures, they decided to cut the amount of metal to shroud the loco to bare minimums. this resulted int he ever popular modern style of boxie Engines (Powered boxcars), where the metal shrouds just barely cover the internals and a cab was an afterthought (or so it seems, just look where they stuck the bathrooms). It was more a change in design that allows not only for easier construction, but much better access for maintenance. The old style units had a girder-type frame just inside the car body - the EMD BL-1 & 2 sheet metal shows this clearly from the outside. The later GPs had much stronger lower frames and center sills, eliminating the need for the girder and the wide car body. Although FP45s have full width bodies, the framing is the same as a normal SD. The Illinois Railway Museum has a number of E & F units, including the BN Executive E-units. They also have a Santa-Fe FP45. http://www.irm.org/roster/diesel.html Reply Edit siberianmo Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA 7,214 posts Posted by siberianmo on Thursday, April 7, 2005 11:40 AM QUOTE: driver8 Posted: 29 Nov 2004, 22:48:37 Hello, Sure, I understand the progression from Steam to Diesel, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable has an answer for me. What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Also, am I incorrect in my belief that there are more steamers preserved than streamliners? Of course, to me they both have an important place in railroading. great forum, thanks ! The answer to your first question about the demise of the F and Alco units, etc. can best be answered within several books, one in particular comes to mind: Mike Schaefer's "The American Passenger Train." In chapter 6 he talks about the streamliner era and the eventual "bottom falling out." Good reading ...... I cannot answer whether more steam loco's are preserved than diesel/streamliners ... however, my guess is that would be true. The steam driven loco holds so much in terms of majesty and history in American and Canadian railroading. The only operating railroad left in North America that runs equipment from the old streamline era is VIA Rail of Canada. They operate regularly scheduled trains throughout the country. The "Canadian" (Toronto-Vancouver) and the "Ocean" (Montreal-Halifax) are just two. (I should add that new "Euro" cars - called "Renaissance" have replaced all but one train each way on the Montreal-Halifax route. Check www.viarail.ca for more info.) Most of the equipment, aside from the locomotives, was manufactured by the Budd Company of Philadelphia, who also had factories in Canada. The majority of the cars running today were part of Canadian Pacific's fleet and their transcontinental train, "The Canadian" (ViA Rail dropped the "The"). So, with a bit of research, one could actually determine whether the cars were "born" in Canada or the USA. Nevertheless, they are running and they are fun to ride! Great topic![tup][:D] Happy Railroading! Siberianmo Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:29 AM 5 "streamliner" cars just drifted by the Ft. Madison cam on the back of a D/stack BNSF train going WB[:o)][8D][:D] Originally posted by driver8 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Wdlgln005 Member sinceApril 2002 From: Nashville TN 1,306 posts Posted by Wdlgln005 on Saturday, April 9, 2005 9:30 PM In talking about streamliners, are you referring to the cars or the locomotives? Fot the E's F's etc, it's easy: Amtrak and the commuter agencies cut the number of buyers for passenger units. Freight units don't care about streamlining as much. What we got was the EMD F40, then the F69, then they left the market. Amtrak gave GE a golden opportunity. For cars, you have to look at the development of gallery and superliner cars. In theory, put on more people per car/train per length. My BN Racetrak tapes show the Burlingon running 2-3 car galleries with 1 combine baggage/smoker. Now they tend to run6-8 car blocks of gallery cars. The superliner is a fine railcar. Put the passenger higher above the rail. From a coach seat, you may be able to see over the freight on the other track. Make better use of the lower section for the disabled & other special needs passengers. Hope you don't mind going downstairs to find the bathrooms! Lounge cars substitute for dome cars. The only view missing is looking ahead. Western trains got them first, then as clerances were improved, easterners got a chance to ride one. It's time for Amtrak to order a 3rd set of Superliners! THe older Heritage fleet could no longer meet current standards. No more dumping the toilet overboard. A few were salvaged, others sent to Canada. Glenn Woodle Reply Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
Originally posted by driver8 Hello, Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply mustanggt Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Massachusetts 664 posts Posted by mustanggt on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 2:36 PM QUOTE: Of course the streamliner concept is alive and well, The Acela is clearly a streamline train, and so is the rebuilt Rohr Turboliner. Even the Colorado Railcar can be called streamlined. But for the classic, enjoy The Canadian, exept for the locomotives. Can't forget the GE Genesis diesels, or the F59PHi. C280 rollin' Reply tatans Member sinceMay 2004 4,115 posts Posted by tatans on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 4:52 PM Steamerfan , you must have read my mind on diesels, I refer to them as tipped-over Metal gym lockers with motors. Streamliners??? They all ended up here in Canada and we are still using them on our so-called passenger service. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 5:19 PM The term Streamliner was a brand name used by the UP starting in 1933 for its first light weight trains such the City of Salina, City of Portland, etc. When these trains got dome cars in the 1950s the were rebranded and became Domeliners. Bob Reply passengerfan Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Central Valley California 2,841 posts Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 8:31 PM Another problem was by the time of the Amtrak takeover very little equipment was less than twenty to thirty years old and much had seen deferred maintenance which meant heavy expenditures to put it back in reasonable order. On top of that Budd was ready to exit the passengercar business and AC&F had already left. This left Pullman who was lacking interest in passenger equipment as well. Sure the Amfleet cars came from Budd and the first order of Superliners came from Pullman but any future cars are going to be a major expense. The railroads themselves were not interested in investing in new equipment and it is for that reason only that Santa Fe and several others joined Amtrak. They were not prepared to invest the necessary funds into new equipment. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 7, 2005 8:01 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan QUOTE: Originally posted by driver8 What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Simple answer is the same thing that caused the demise of Steam.....Cost. But this time, not the cost to run them, but the cost to make them. In cost saving measures, they decided to cut the amount of metal to shroud the loco to bare minimums. this resulted int he ever popular modern style of boxie Engines (Powered boxcars), where the metal shrouds just barely cover the internals and a cab was an afterthought (or so it seems, just look where they stuck the bathrooms). It was more a change in design that allows not only for easier construction, but much better access for maintenance. The old style units had a girder-type frame just inside the car body - the EMD BL-1 & 2 sheet metal shows this clearly from the outside. The later GPs had much stronger lower frames and center sills, eliminating the need for the girder and the wide car body. Although FP45s have full width bodies, the framing is the same as a normal SD. The Illinois Railway Museum has a number of E & F units, including the BN Executive E-units. They also have a Santa-Fe FP45. http://www.irm.org/roster/diesel.html Reply Edit siberianmo Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA 7,214 posts Posted by siberianmo on Thursday, April 7, 2005 11:40 AM QUOTE: driver8 Posted: 29 Nov 2004, 22:48:37 Hello, Sure, I understand the progression from Steam to Diesel, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable has an answer for me. What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Also, am I incorrect in my belief that there are more steamers preserved than streamliners? Of course, to me they both have an important place in railroading. great forum, thanks ! The answer to your first question about the demise of the F and Alco units, etc. can best be answered within several books, one in particular comes to mind: Mike Schaefer's "The American Passenger Train." In chapter 6 he talks about the streamliner era and the eventual "bottom falling out." Good reading ...... I cannot answer whether more steam loco's are preserved than diesel/streamliners ... however, my guess is that would be true. The steam driven loco holds so much in terms of majesty and history in American and Canadian railroading. The only operating railroad left in North America that runs equipment from the old streamline era is VIA Rail of Canada. They operate regularly scheduled trains throughout the country. The "Canadian" (Toronto-Vancouver) and the "Ocean" (Montreal-Halifax) are just two. (I should add that new "Euro" cars - called "Renaissance" have replaced all but one train each way on the Montreal-Halifax route. Check www.viarail.ca for more info.) Most of the equipment, aside from the locomotives, was manufactured by the Budd Company of Philadelphia, who also had factories in Canada. The majority of the cars running today were part of Canadian Pacific's fleet and their transcontinental train, "The Canadian" (ViA Rail dropped the "The"). So, with a bit of research, one could actually determine whether the cars were "born" in Canada or the USA. Nevertheless, they are running and they are fun to ride! Great topic![tup][:D] Happy Railroading! Siberianmo Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:29 AM 5 "streamliner" cars just drifted by the Ft. Madison cam on the back of a D/stack BNSF train going WB[:o)][8D][:D] Originally posted by driver8 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Wdlgln005 Member sinceApril 2002 From: Nashville TN 1,306 posts Posted by Wdlgln005 on Saturday, April 9, 2005 9:30 PM In talking about streamliners, are you referring to the cars or the locomotives? Fot the E's F's etc, it's easy: Amtrak and the commuter agencies cut the number of buyers for passenger units. Freight units don't care about streamlining as much. What we got was the EMD F40, then the F69, then they left the market. Amtrak gave GE a golden opportunity. For cars, you have to look at the development of gallery and superliner cars. In theory, put on more people per car/train per length. My BN Racetrak tapes show the Burlingon running 2-3 car galleries with 1 combine baggage/smoker. Now they tend to run6-8 car blocks of gallery cars. The superliner is a fine railcar. Put the passenger higher above the rail. From a coach seat, you may be able to see over the freight on the other track. Make better use of the lower section for the disabled & other special needs passengers. Hope you don't mind going downstairs to find the bathrooms! Lounge cars substitute for dome cars. The only view missing is looking ahead. Western trains got them first, then as clerances were improved, easterners got a chance to ride one. It's time for Amtrak to order a 3rd set of Superliners! THe older Heritage fleet could no longer meet current standards. No more dumping the toilet overboard. A few were salvaged, others sent to Canada. Glenn Woodle Reply Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Of course the streamliner concept is alive and well, The Acela is clearly a streamline train, and so is the rebuilt Rohr Turboliner. Even the Colorado Railcar can be called streamlined. But for the classic, enjoy The Canadian, exept for the locomotives.
QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan QUOTE: Originally posted by driver8 What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Simple answer is the same thing that caused the demise of Steam.....Cost. But this time, not the cost to run them, but the cost to make them. In cost saving measures, they decided to cut the amount of metal to shroud the loco to bare minimums. this resulted int he ever popular modern style of boxie Engines (Powered boxcars), where the metal shrouds just barely cover the internals and a cab was an afterthought (or so it seems, just look where they stuck the bathrooms).
QUOTE: driver8 Posted: 29 Nov 2004, 22:48:37 Hello, Sure, I understand the progression from Steam to Diesel, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable has an answer for me. What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Also, am I incorrect in my belief that there are more steamers preserved than streamliners? Of course, to me they both have an important place in railroading. great forum, thanks !
Originally posted by driver8 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Wdlgln005 Member sinceApril 2002 From: Nashville TN 1,306 posts Posted by Wdlgln005 on Saturday, April 9, 2005 9:30 PM In talking about streamliners, are you referring to the cars or the locomotives? Fot the E's F's etc, it's easy: Amtrak and the commuter agencies cut the number of buyers for passenger units. Freight units don't care about streamlining as much. What we got was the EMD F40, then the F69, then they left the market. Amtrak gave GE a golden opportunity. For cars, you have to look at the development of gallery and superliner cars. In theory, put on more people per car/train per length. My BN Racetrak tapes show the Burlingon running 2-3 car galleries with 1 combine baggage/smoker. Now they tend to run6-8 car blocks of gallery cars. The superliner is a fine railcar. Put the passenger higher above the rail. From a coach seat, you may be able to see over the freight on the other track. Make better use of the lower section for the disabled & other special needs passengers. Hope you don't mind going downstairs to find the bathrooms! Lounge cars substitute for dome cars. The only view missing is looking ahead. Western trains got them first, then as clerances were improved, easterners got a chance to ride one. It's time for Amtrak to order a 3rd set of Superliners! THe older Heritage fleet could no longer meet current standards. No more dumping the toilet overboard. A few were salvaged, others sent to Canada. Glenn Woodle Reply Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.